Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: bo

Threads seem few and far between lately]so I thought I would start one that concerns this game and Fog of War, I have the WIF computer game and as I have said before and it really helps me understand this game better because I never played the board game, it is difficult to play yourself as you might guess, the one good thing about it is if you start to lose you turn the stupid computer off Ok enough of that my question would be to all you board game players is, can a Pearl Harbor scenario happen in the board game, meaning if you use the 1939 start for your game against other board game players they would be able to see an invasion buildup against Pearl or any other major target including D-Day as there is no FOW, I do not know if Steve will include FOW if you play against the computers AI, maybe the identity of the forces would be obscure to the human player even though they see the counters, might be a good idea and may not be I don't know, or it might be to complicated to put into the game. In the board game if a Japanese player moved his or her forces say into the waters around Pearl could that player put his counter forces face down so the US player would not know the composition of the opposing forces. this might be a form of FOW, any help here in clearing this up for a noob like me would be appreciated.

Bo

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Bo there can always be a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor so long as the US do not declare war first and the Japanese player wants to go down that route. From memory, the Japanese have to judge very carefully when to declare war on the US. They do not want the US being able to come in first (the US entry date is not set in stone, but depends on a host of factors), but equally do not want to be fighting the US too early - for obvious reasons.

Hope I'm answering your concerns okay.

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ORIGINAL: bo

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Bo there can always be a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor so long as the US do not declare war first and the Japanese player wants to go down that route. From memory, the Japanese have to judge very carefully when to declare war on the US. They do not want the US being able to come in first (the US entry date is not set in stone, but depends on a host of factors), but equally do not want to be fighting the US too early - for obvious reasons.

Hope I'm answering your concerns okay.

I am picking your brain so to speak, and every thing you said makes sense, and I do not disagree with anything you have said as of yetI do not know if you have computer WIF from ADG? They use a minor FOW in that it does not show the full strength of the opposition in front of you until several battles take place that's if the first battle did not solve the issue. Why is that good because for the first time since you learned the game it now can be done in MWIF by the computer. I know Steve will clarify my questions You brought up about Stalin knowing or not knowing that 3 million Germans were on his doorstep, many believe that he did know and he did not warn his front lines because he had to have total war and to get his whole nation behind him he had to show his people how ruthless Germany and Hitler truly were, Had Hitler known how vast the Russians resources were with material and people maybe just maybe he would not have attacked Russia[FOW], there are people who believe had Japan not attacked us at Pearl FDR would not have had an excuse to declare war on Germany. There are many many people including my son that believe Pearl was a setup by FDR hoping the Japanese would attack there[no carriers theory] and that an attack on say Wake, Guam, Midway would only lead to an to a small force[easily defeated] not total war to take the islands back[FOW] I do not happen to believe in that theory. What does this have to do with MWIF, nothing just small talk and questions from a novice in the world of WIF.

Bo

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Centuur

FOW is everywhere in WiF. There are the search die rolls, there are the rolls for combat resolution, there is the surprise on the first impulse after the DoW etc. etc.
It only isn't put as FOW in the rules as such.
Wouldn't be the worst die roll on a reasonably attack be explainable as: oh my god, it wasn't 2nd line Garrison troops there in Arnhem but two SS Panzerdivisions on holiday in the nice woods around Arnhem, doing some retraining and badly needed RnR?
Concerning Pearl Harbor. It is the way WiF handels this that makes it so very nice. As the Japanese, you don't even have to make it look like a surprise. The US can't do anything to counter you're attack, because historically the US didn't see it's coming (because of the rules). In the game you see it coming, but you are not able to do a thing about it... Now, if that isn't FOW, I don't know what is. The same applies to any DoW's on minor countries (of which a lot did see it coming, question was: when...).
In a strategic game, it would be very strange if you didn't have any clues about what is going to happen next...

I have thought about how to create more FOW in the game, and if this was going to be reasonable. I don't think it is. You can't disguise corps sized troops in most cases. Also the disappearance of large fleet sections is going to be noticed, by spies, air-reconnaisance, etc. etc.
It is the odd die-roll which recreate these kind of things, together with the surprises you're opponent is playing.

If WiF was a tactical game, well, than it would be a completely other matter, of course...


Greetings,


Peter

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ORIGINAL: bo

errrrr I was not suggesting I believe in either theory in fact I do not except them at all, do you only play WIF or do you play other war computer games such as Strategic Command, and if you play them do you let actual time lines play into your thinking if your playing the AI, like D-day has to be in June of 44 or Barbarossa has to be in June of 1941? And do board game players let real life time lines influence them, the only board game I ever played was 3rd Reich.

Bo

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Just my two cents on a few points:

The USA actually knew 5 hours before the strike at Pearl Harbor that it was about to happen. Unfortunately, the information was sent over a leased commercial line (the Hotline between Washington & Moscow is also leased), and didn't get to the commanders in time. Big oops.

O-chits also help to create a sense of FOW. Any way you use them they do this, but especially when used for a Super-Combined action. This lets you pull off massive invasions in a single impulse, whereas a regular combined only lets you attempt minor ones. Without the Super-Combined, you'd need at least two impulses to do the same thing: a naval, and a land. Merely having an Offensive chit is, in a sense, an example of FOW. It is massed supplies that can be used anywhere on the map to improve your military. In effect, it is multiple "hidden" Corps.

Fog of War, in gaming terms, has come to mean "that which cannot be seen because it is greyed out" while the true definition should be closer to "that which cannot be seen".

Unless I've miscalculated, Japan could have a large fleet based in Japan itself, with land and air elements included and still launch a single-impulse surprise attack on Honolulu. It may fail, but it could be done. And these are forces which are in position to launch against at least a half-dozen key locations, probably more. Part of it will depend on the Optional Rules chosen.

-Aaron

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You can do an invasion but not the historical port attack in a single impulse. That is because port attack precedes naval movement in the seuqence of play.

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And a successful invasion would be much more damaging than a port strike on Pearl Harbor. On the the surprise impulse the entire fleet could be sunk or even captured. With the right moves into the surrounding sea zones, the ships that succeed in running for it could be found and sunk too. Major ugly for the U.S.

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ORIGINAL: Centuur

If the US player did garrison the Hawaii Islands, than a Japanese invasion isn't an easy thing to succeed. The Japanese has more to do on that first impulse and normally will not be able to get enough land units to do the job. Off course, the unlimited division breakdown may change this, as invading with divisions from SCS may free some units to do some extra work elsewhere...

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ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

I'm sure this was answered before. Will MWif have the Task Force rule, which of course adds a layer of fog of war. I don't think it"s a necessary addition -- but it seems like one of those things a computer could handle better than it gets handled when playing face-to-face.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: bo

Threads seem few and far between lately]so I thought I would start one that concerns this game and Fog of War, I have the WIF computer game and as I have said before and it really helps me understand this game better because I never played the board game, it is difficult to play yourself as you might guess, the one good thing about it is if you start to lose you turn the stupid computer off Ok enough of that my question would be to all you board game players is, can a Pearl Harbor scenario happen in the board game, meaning if you use the 1939 start for your game against other board game players they would be able to see an invasion buildup against Pearl or any other major target including D-Day as there is no FOW, I do not know if Steve will include FOW if you play against the computers AI, maybe the identity of the forces would be obscure to the human player even though they see the counters, might be a good idea and may not be I don't know, or it might be to complicated to put into the game. In the board game if a Japanese player moved his or her forces say into the waters around Pearl could that player put his counter forces face down so the US player would not know the composition of the opposing forces. this might be a form of FOW, any help here in clearing this up for a noob like me would be appreciated.

Bo

Warspite1

Bo, just a bit of pre-amble; WIF is an award winning game that has been around for donkeys years i.e. it has stood the test of time; it is proven - it is quite brilliant. In the board game there is no FOW. There will be no FOW in MWIF. It is not needed.

To answer your specific questions I would answer as follows:

If we take Pearl Harbor as an example. Remember WIF is a Strategic level game. There is not the multitude of turns while the Japanese player makes his way slowly across the Pacific, that allows the US player to know what's coming and take precautions. To launch a Pearl - or any attack, you need to be in range of the target. So long as that is the case, you move your units in one impulse.

Why is FOW not needed in a Strategic Game? Well take D-Day or Barbarossa. In either case, Hitler and Stalin knew what was coming.

D-Day - Hitler did not know where and when exactly, but simply that there was a massive build up of arms across the Channel and it was headed his way. In WIF it is no different. You can place units in a number of ports from which an invasion may take place against a number of coasts, and a number of different areas on those coasts.

Barbarossa - Stalin chose not to believe what was happening; he chose not to believe the intelligence. But you cannot - and the Germans did not - conceal the 3 million troops on the border. You cannot in WIF either. Doesn't mean you know where and when the axe will fall exactly.

There is a load of rules that ensure that operations that reflect history can be carried out, but mostly it is down to bluff and double bluff - just like the real war - you need to keep your opponent off balance, that's the trick. Believe me, FOW is not needed in this classic of a game.

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I have an old TV that's been around for donkey years, tried and tested if you're interested, and a VCR, ...

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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I have an old TV that's been around for donkey years, tried and tested if you're interested, and a VCR, ...

I presume that was a staggeringly feeble attempt at humour? Some things can be bettered by amendments over time. Some things can be spoilt by - so called - improvements.

World In Flames does not use, does not need, and would not be improved with "FOW". Live with it

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ORIGINAL: Red Prince

With the numerous possibilities for different combinations of wars, game modes, nation assignments, etc. I don't know if it would even be possible to get a working FOW programmed to run bug-free in any reasonable amount of time. And, while the rules forbid the USA player from telling even his allies the exact entry pool numbers, interplayer communications force players to use the honour system. Fog of War in NetPlay or PBEM would have the same problem. What's to stop one player from telling another what he knows?

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ORIGINAL: Red Prince

With the numerous possibilities for different combinations of wars, game modes, nation assignments, etc. I don't know if it would even be possible to get a working FOW programmed to run bug-free in any reasonable amount of time. And, while the rules forbid the USA player from telling even his allies the exact entry pool numbers, interplayer communications force players to use the honour system. Fog of War in NetPlay or PBEM would have the same problem. What's to stop one player from telling another what he knows?

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ORIGINAL: bo

I would hope integrity would stop the dedicated player Red,

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: Red Prince

With the numerous possibilities for different combinations of wars, game modes, nation assignments, etc. I don't know if it would even be possible to get a working FOW programmed to run bug-free in any reasonable amount of time. And, while the rules forbid the USA player from telling even his allies the exact entry pool numbers, interplayer communications force players to use the honour system. Fog of War in NetPlay or PBEM would have the same problem. What's to stop one player from telling another what he knows?

When you get down to the nitty gritty as to what Fog Of War means, a wealth of different opinions appear. No two people agree. In fact, they are often astonished to discover that other people don't understand the 'rule' the same way they do.

When I looked into coding FOW (briefly - 10 hours or so several years ago), what I discovered was the rule could not be written in clear English for everyone to understand, much less get everyone to agree on. If it can't be written in plain language, it certainly can't be written in code.

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ORIGINAL: Red Prince

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ORIGINAL: bo

I would hope integrity would stop the dedicated player Red,

Ahhh, a dreamer. I would hope so, too. All it takes, though, is one bad nut to ruin a good war . . .