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Victory Games Vietnam - 6/18/2011 4:18:35 PM

Grymme

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Well i have started what i think will be my next big project after FITE

I made a Vietnam scenario a long time ago. I usually dont go back and do new scenarios on the same topic. But i have for a long time been wanting to totally redo this scenario.

Anyways. The scenario will be a recreation of Victory Games Vietnam boardgame. I will try to be as faithfull as possible to the boardgame. I rarely have much time to work on this so estimated project time is 1 year untill completion. If it gets completed.

So far i have created a basic map, se screenshot. Screenshot shows most of the map, but not all of the delta.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 6/18/2011 4:19:42 PM >

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/18/2011 4:30:05 PM

Grymme

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I am also working on events. The boardgame has a very complex eventsystem to simulate the US/RVN NFL/PRNV struggle for pacification/suppression of the population. The boardgame and scenario will have 30+ provinces and each province has a specific population that can be loyal to RVN or PRNV depending on circumstances.

Here is my preliminary scripting for the pacification of one of the province. Comments are in bold text. Anyway, this is one event of 36 or 37. What i would like to do is a loop that could fit all provinces into one event.

Anyway the way it works is that each time pacification is checked it rolls one random dice. With a high roll the population is drawn to RVN. A low run the population is drawn to PRNV. The roll is modified by
-1 if the regional capital is occupied.
-1 if RVN morale less than 70
+1 if RVN morale more than 140
-1/ 20 enemy powerpoints in province
-1/30 powerpoints in cultivated or town in province.
+-/ per population more than 50% of total population in allegience to either side.

Here is my preliminary event

0) ' Tempvar1 is all modifiers. It starts with a check for NVA strength
1) SETVAR: TempVar201 = South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1)
2) SETVAR: TempVar1 = CheckPowerPointsInArea(1, 1, 1, 1)
3) SETVAR: TempVar1 / 20
4) CHECK: CheckHexOwner(35, 4) == 1
5) ' If capitol is occupied +1 modifier
6) SETVAR: TempVar1 + 1
7) END CHECK
8) ' Check PPs in cultivated & other town hexes
9) SETVAR: TempVar2 = CheckPowerPointsInArea(2, 1, 1, 1)
10) SETVAR: TempVar2 / 30
11) SETVAR: TempVar1 + TempVar2
12) ' Check influence by SVN Morale
13) CHECK: Gameslot_SVN Morale(#37) < 71
14) SETVAR: TempVar1 + 1
15) END CHECK
16) CHECK: Gameslot_SVN Morale(#37) > 140
17) SETVAR: TempVar1 - 1
18) END CHECK
19) ' Check influence of population allegience
20) SETVAR: TempVar100 = Gameslot_Quang Tri(#1)
21) SETVAR: TempVar100 / 2
22) SETVAR: TempVar1 + TempVar100
23) SETVAR: TempVar1 - South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1)
24) ' tempvar5 is the diceroll modified by tempvar 1
25) SETVAR: TempVar5 = CheckRandomPercent
26) SETVAR: TempVar200 = TempVar5
27) SETVAR: TempVar5 - TempVar1
28) ' Apply results
29) CHECK: TempVar5 < 1
30) SETVAR: South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1) - 4
31) END CHECK
32) CHECK: TempVar5 < 21
33) CHECK: TempVar5 > 0
34) SETVAR: South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1) - 3
35) END CHECK
36) END CHECK
37) CHECK: TempVar5 < 31
38) CHECK: TempVar5 > 20
39) SETVAR: South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1) - 2
40) END CHECK
41) END CHECK
42) CHECK: TempVar5 > 30
43) CHECK: TempVar5 < 41
44) SETVAR: South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1) - 1
45) END CHECK
46) END CHECK
47) CHECK: TempVar5 > 60
48) CHECK: TempVar5 < 71
49) SETVAR: South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1) + 1
50) END CHECK
51) END CHECK
52) CHECK: TempVar5 > 70
53) CHECK: TempVar5 < 81
54) SETVAR: South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1) + 2
55) END CHECK
56) END CHECK
57) CHECK: TempVar5 > 80
58) CHECK: TempVar5 < 91
59) SETVAR: South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1) + 3
60) END CHECK
61) END CHECK
62) CHECK: TempVar5 > 90
63) SETVAR: South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1) + 4
64) END CHECK
65) ' Finally corrections in case result is less than 0 or more than 18
66) CHECK: South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1) < 0
67) SETVAR: South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1) = 0
68) END CHECK
69) CHECK: South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1) > 18
70) SETVAR: South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1) = 0
71) END CHECK
72) SETVAR: TempVar202 = South Vietnam_Quang Tri(#1)
73) EXECUTE: ExecMessage(0, 1, 0, -1)

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/18/2011 4:41:15 PM

Grymme

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Another thing i have slowly started to work on are historical SFT units.

The issue i have right now is what scale i should use for SFTs.

Here is an OOB of a standard US battalion

US Infantry Battalion
43 officers
2 warrant officers
779 enlisted men

50* trucks
26* 7,62 machineguns
110* 40mm grenadelauncher
4* 4,2 inch mortar
12* 81mm mortar (5 crew)
846* M16 rifles
12* 90mm recoilles rifles
12* portable flamethrower

The issue here is that a US battalion had something like 36-42 rifle squads. That sounds ok. But if you are going with squads as the normal element it would have something like 13 mortar squads and 15 MG squads. It sounds like a lot of heavy weapon squads compared to the riflesquads. I could convert 1/3rd of the MG squads to recoilless rifle sq

Anyway here is the results so far

US battalion (ingame)
42* M16 Rifle Sq.
12* 81mm Mortar Sq.
1* 4,2 Inch Mortar Sq
10* 7,62 Machinegun Sq
5* 90mm Recoilless Sq
4* Flamethrower Sq (unsure about this)
-------------------
For a total of 74 SFTs.

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/18/2011 7:32:20 PM

Grymme

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Here is a pic of the basic US manouvre element

A standard Infantry Battalion

Attachment (1)

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/18/2011 8:16:41 PM

Grymme

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And here we have another unit

A US tank battalion

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 5

RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/18/2011 8:26:39 PM

mllange

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Complex and detailed, this looks impressive. I, for one, will patiently await your development and offer encouragement.

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/19/2011 4:04:55 PM

Grymme

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Thanks Nim8or.

Here is a link to the boardgame i am trying to emulate

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5620/vietnam-1965-1975

I will describe another couple of events that i will have to try and implement

ARVN Efficiency
In the boardgame each ARVN division, Corps etc has a leader. They have leadership ratings. Each round you have to check if each division is effective. If not then the entire division has to remain static for the round.

So i am looking at the Checks and Execs. There are checks for each HQs and then checks for unit HQs, there is also an exec that changes a units AP. So i think there should be a way to loop check HQs and then immobilize all HQs and units that fail the check, but i have not been able to figure out how to do it yet.

Free Fire zone
In the game US artillery and airpower is impaired unless a province is declared a Free Fire zone. If a province is declared free fire then artillery/airpower is more effective but this drives the people in the province into the hands of the NVA/NFL. I have not figured out how to do this yet, but hopefully it will be possible.

In the meantime i have been working some more on US SFTs. Here are a couple of more units. The Infantry strength of the battalions are guesstimations. In the TOE i do not see any riflesquads etc. But the TOE inclides huge amounts of M16 Rifles, M60 Machineguns etc and as i understand it it was more a rule than a exception that auxilliary personell (radiopersonell, chefs, mechanics etc) were used for base security. Also all hvy weapon crews had their personel weapons as well.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/19/2011 4:23:07 PM

Grymme

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Here is my current ARVN leadership event check. It should look through all units, check if they are HQs and check through the whole map for units not american (checkunitsfrom) then check random percent and reduce AP. Somehow its not working. A gold star to anyone who can get the event working.

0) LOOPER: TempVar0 FROM 0 TO CheckTotalUnits
1) CHECK: CheckUnitHQ(TempVar0) == 1
2) CHECK: CheckUnitsFrom(3, 1, 1, 0) == 1
3) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 99
4) EXECUTE: ExecUnitApModify(TempVar0, -100, -1, -1)
5) END CHECK
6) END CHECK
7) END CHECK
8) END LOOPER

And here is a preliminary VC regiment OOB, see screenshot

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 6/19/2011 7:50:59 PM >

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/20/2011 2:45:09 AM

Rosseau

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It shows what a knowledgeable person can do with this game. I hope more time opens up for you to design over the next year. (This one you may want to charge money for ).

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/20/2011 10:39:48 AM

RealDarko

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Looks amazing mate!! Will be possible to airlift infantry units using choppers? And will the massive air power of the states be available?
BTW, the M48 pic you posted doen's look like a Patton to me, but I can be wrong of course.

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/20/2011 10:45:46 AM

Twotribes

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You could do platoons for basic unit. Army had 3 squads with a leadership section per platoon, same with Marines.

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/21/2011 2:27:05 PM

Grymme

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Rosseau: Yeah, if this gets finished it will likely be one which i charge for. On the other hand i will most likely upload my old scenario once i get far enough to know that i will most likely finish this.

Realdarko: Airlifts/choppers will be simulated in one way or another. In the boardgame there are 2 US divisions that have embedded airmobility and all other units can be made airmobile for a round using a strategic resource called airmobile points.

Twotribes: Do you mean 1 platoon=1SFT or 1 platoon= 1 unit?

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/22/2011 12:38:11 PM

RealDarko

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Sounds cool!!

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/22/2011 12:58:57 PM

Twotribes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grymme

Rosseau: Yeah, if this gets finished it will likely be one which i charge for. On the other hand i will most likely upload my old scenario once i get far enough to know that i will most likely finish this.

Realdarko: Airlifts/choppers will be simulated in one way or another. In the boardgame there are 2 US divisions that have embedded airmobility and all other units can be made airmobile for a round using a strategic resource called airmobile points.

Twotribes: Do you mean 1 platoon=1SFT or 1 platoon= 1 unit?

I platoon equals one sft. Tank wise that would be 5 tanks per platoon, 45 men or so per platoon, the only problem being some of your squad weapons wouldnt fit then, you could count them as pairs maybe, most Heavy Machine guns worked as teams.

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/26/2011 8:51:02 PM

Grymme

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A small update on the progress with this.

I am working on SFTs, units, the map and events at the same time.

Here is a small update on the map front.

White lines are province borders (seing these can be turned off ingame).
White names are province names.
Cities with a circle in them are provincial or other capitals.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/26/2011 8:55:22 PM

ernieschwitz

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How did you make the white lines? I am curious :)

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/26/2011 8:55:26 PM

Grymme

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And here is another couple of units

From top to bottom

ARVN Regiment
NVA Tank Battalion
US Airmobile Battalion

Attachment (1)

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/26/2011 9:29:09 PM

Grymme

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Ernie: I used the original border graphics from Advanced tactics and modified them a little. Then i added them as a new sprite for a landscape (doesnt matter which one).

Then i used "Specials" in the draw type. It can be used to draw all kinds of things on top of normal graphics. I used the same method to draw the Provincial capitols.

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/26/2011 10:01:48 PM

ernieschwitz

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Sounds simple, i bet it really isn�t that simple. I haven�t dabbled alot with graphics yet... so they are still somewhat a mystery to me... I only just discovered how to change the prehex sprite, and enable 64 bit roads...

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Post #: 19

RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 6/30/2011 6:22:41 PM

Grymme

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A small update on how this is going a day or so before i go on a two week holliday.

So, this will be a scenario VERY different to other ATG games. It will most likely be human only because it will use actioncards very extensivly.

Anyway. Here is a couple of words on how units will be created.

This scenario will most likely not use normal production instead you have different resources that are used to create units.

US units are created by increasing US commitment to the war. You can create as many units as you want as long as US commitment is not higher than US Morale. Raising the commitment (and a lot of other factors) affects US morale so at some point it will most likely be impossible to create new US units. A typical US division might cost 9-10 commitment and US morale starts at 520.

ARVN units are created by expending personell and military supply. The only way to create military supplies is by increasing US commitment. 1 US commitment nets you 7 supplies. You also need personell to create units. When you create an ARVN unit it generally follows an increase in the ARVN draft. Units can only be created as long as the ARVN draft is lower than the SVN controlled population. At the beginning of the game ARVN controlls ca 600 population, but this can increase or decrease depending on the result of the pacification efforts. For and example of cost creating 3 ARVN battalions cost 3 personell and 2 supplies.

The NVA has a system similar to USA and the NFL has a system similar to the ARVN. NVA morale starts really low and rises instead so that eventually NVA will be able to intervene in strength in the conflict by being able to increase NVA commitment. NFL relies on NFL controlled population and supplies created by increasing NVA commitment.

So it seems that you could just create a huge amount of units, but this is affected by other factors as well. For example the rate of new commitment increased each round affects how fast US morale. So for example say you want to go for an imeadiate kill and pay 90 commitment imediatly to get you almost all US divisions available. But increasing the commitment by 90 decreases US morale much faster than doing it in increments of 5 or 10 each round and it also gives a huge boost to NVA morale which allows it to commit larger forces. So it all becomes a delicate balance. And USA have to hold Saigon for almost 10 years (115 rounds) to win the scenario. Do you want a big war or a small war?

This sounds very complicated, but once you see it its quite logical.

< Message edited by Grymme -- 6/30/2011 6:24:36 PM >

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 7/15/2011 3:38:43 PM

Stratos_MatrixForum

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Any update? I'm really looking forward to this, specially playing against myself.

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 7/18/2011 3:40:00 PM

Grymme

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I am back and will resume work shortly, but it might take a little while for an update.

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Post #: 22

RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 7/19/2011 8:13:25 PM

Grymme

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Here is a small update on what i am working on, although i dont have as much time as i would like to.

The screenshot below shows the Cards section of the US/ARVN player at the start of the game.

The scenario will be very actioncarddriven (but i am thinking about making a simple AI friendly game variant with locations and without actioncards).

Anyway ATG is not at all unitcentric, but i have tried my best to recreate the feel of each major US divisional unit.

The US/SVN player can commit 10 divisions to Vietnam (and a couple of separate brigades and regiments). These are 1st (Air) Cavalry Division, 1st Infantry Division, 4th Infantry Division, 9th Infantry Division, 23rd Infantry Division, 25th Infantry Division, 101st Airmobile Division, 82nd Airborne Division, 1st Marine Division and 3rd Marine Division.

Most of the divisions have something that stands out with it. The aircavalry and airmobile divisions are airmobile, some divisions have a tank squadron or some mechanized battalions attached, the 9th Infantry Division has one brigade using Riverine transports, 23rd infantry Division is extra strong in artillery etc. All to give it the feel of the genuine division.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 7/23/2011 9:55:48 AM

BULLDOGINTHEUK

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Looking great!

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 7/23/2011 3:11:29 PM

Keunert

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wow great stuff as usual!

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Post #: 25

RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 7/23/2011 7:51:04 PM

Grymme

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Thanks guys. Just solved a brick wall i had hit in the coding.

To get a hint of the progress, here is my to-do list on things left to do in the scenario.

Things left to do in the scenario

US deployment (cards, TOES & coding)
- 199th light brigade
- 11th armored cavalry regiment
- 26th Marine Regiment
- 27th Marine Regiment
- 173rd Abn Brigade
- 5th Mechanized Brigade
- Separate Infantry battalions
- Separate Mechanized battalions
- Separate Tank battalions

ARVN deployment action cards
- Mechanized battalions
- Tank Battalions
- Marine Division
- Airborne Division
- Ranger Battalions

ARVN initial deployment action cards

NLF deployment action cards
- Supply conduits

NVA deployment (cards, TOES & coding)
- Division HQs (TOE done)
- Regiments (TOE done)
- Artillery battalions
- Engineers & AA???

Equipment & TOEs
- US (almost done)
- ARVN
- NVA
- NLF (almost done)
- Free World

Augmentation of
- NVA units
- ARVN units

Pacification
- Province Pacification coding (35/37 provinces left)
- Province pacificaiton messages
- Free Fire modification
- Game variant modification

VC dispersal (done but can be improved)
VC political sections

Map, landscapes & locations.
- more NVN & Water
- Improve riverine movement
- Fortifications & air bases
- Trail creation
- McNamara line
- Riverine movement (done but not tested)

Rules & TOE for all sides for
- Replacement points
- Airmobile points
- Air power points
- Riverine points

Morale Adjustments modifications for
- US (almost done)
- ARVN
- NVA (done)
- Offensives

Political rules
- ARVN leaders
- ARVN unit innefectivness
- Coups

US withdrawal rules
Bombing of the north
Bombing of the trail
NVA Air defenses
Sea Supply
Weather
Free World forces arrival rules
ARVN division naming rules?

AI game variants
smaller scenarios
Manual (will be huge)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 7/23/2011 7:53:01 PM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 7/31/2011 6:25:07 PM

Grymme

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Here is a miniupdate in the form of a screenshot from what i think will be an introductory scenario similar to some i have done for others.

Its called "Battle for I corps"

Screenshot shows Free World battleorder at the start of the scenario.

Yellow & Red units= ARVN
Green units = US
Dark Green = USM
Light Blue = Korean

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 7/31/2011 6:26:58 PM >

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Post #: 27

RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 7/31/2011 8:25:55 PM

Grymme

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Also here is something about the soutvietnamese political system.

There are basicly three levels of leaders in SVN

Head of state ***
Corps commander, chief of staff, air & naval commanders ** (7 of these)
and divisional leaders * (can be a total of 13).

All leaders are drawn at random and they all are loyal to one of three factions (A, B or C).

There are 5 possible heads of state. These are Bao Dai -3/+1, Ky -2/0, Thieu -3/0 Minh -1/0 and ? +1/0. The first number indicate the leaders effect on SVN morale and the second number the influence on US morale.

The head of state stays until he is unsettled by a coup. A coup changes leaders but also has a negatice effect on both US and SVN morale.

Divisional commanders and corps level commanders each have a loyalty value and a effectivness value. The loyalty values influence the chances of there being a coup and the effectivnes value influences the combat value of the troops.

The Free World player can try to get an ineffective leader removed, but if they fail then that leader might well become less loyal to the government. Each political phase the system checks how many leaders that are pro coup and anti coup (a loyalty test). And if there are more leaders that want a coup than not then a coup might occur or there might be unrest. Unrest also has a negative effect on morale.

Now this is how the system works in the boardgame. I will probably not be able to recreate this in its entirety, but i will try my best to get something similar but that is still somewhat streamlined.

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Post #: 28

RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/9/2011 10:09:56 AM

Grymme

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Well, i seem to have hit some setbacks on the development of this, one caused by myself and the other (my opinon) by the limits of the editor.

1) The first setback concerns the pacification events. There are 37 provinces in SVN. Every seasonal interface (3rd round) they need to be checked for population allegiance. Since i have found no way to loop this event (lots of different modifiers, connected to certain hexes among other things). That means 37 different events. I did make an event a while back, and started to fill out the events. I did 14 provinces i think. But recently found that it was faulty, so back to the drawing board. So i have now worked a full week on the pacification events and am still not happy. And this is not fun work in any way. So i am taking a small pause from this work.

2) The second issue i am having is that the way a player can make programmed choices in AT/ATG is quite limited. Basicly there are actioncards and then there is the depreciated message event (that has some flaws of its own). So in a scenario like Vietnam there are maybe 60-70 different actions that each player can take each round. Deploy a myriad of different units, buy supply, draft, buy economic aid, buy replacements, disperse, increase draft, buy airpoints, riverine points, airmobile points, try to atempt coup, replace leaders etc etc. Now what all this means is actioncards and lots and lots of actioncards. So far i have 66 of them and it will probably be closer to 100 when i am done. Since i do not want each player facing 50+ actioncards each round i have had to resort to a programmed card within a card function. For example the US player wants to deploy a division. So he plays the deploy a division actioncard. This in turn gives him access to ca 10 US division actioncards. After he has played one of them the rest dissapear and he gets the deploy a division actioncard back. The next time he plays the deploy a division actioncard he will get them back except for the one card he had already played.

Now this is in my opinion a little bit clumsy and not the best sollution. I think the editor could be improved in this respect. On suggestion was put forward by another player to be able to play multiselection events like in DC:WTP. I agree with this. Also i think players should be able to program/edit their own buttons on the interface.

Enough complaining. Time for some screenshots

IV Corps

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 8/9/2011 10:10:09 AM >

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(in reply to Grymme)

Post #: 29

RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/9/2011 10:15:22 AM

Grymme

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
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One interesting thing about the Vietnam war is that there is practically no preplaced units. Each side gets a certain amount of resources on round 1 and then uses these resources to place units where he wants (with some limitations). This makes for some great variation i think.

So these screenshots are just from a setup that i used. The SVN player could just as well have concentrated 5 divisions in the north if he had wanted.