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An examination into withdrawls

 
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An examination into withdrawls - 6/22/2011 10:18:02 PM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		With all the fuss going on lately into the withdrawal issue, I decided to look into it again this afternoon for analysis.

So far everything checks out ok, so I'm not sure where the frustration is coming from, especially since I always warn against them unless you're up against no hope to win :P

Let's look at what's happened in our VERY SIMPLE TO UNDERSTAND EXPERIMENT:



I used the scenario designer to set up some trials. The axis tanks have a 70% quality rating. During the MOVEMENT PHASE, I chose both of these armoured units to switch to withdraw. Their default defense rating was 20, but we can see they auto-changed immediately to 25 because units in withdraw do get a little bit of a defensive bonus, which helps to counter their very risky maneuvers.

Due to an avoidance of (bad luck), and good quality, our rolls (including the -10) modifiers have put both units under our quality rating value of 70 (100 sided die cast). So we successfully pass our W/D checks and are able to leave E-ZoC, as can be clearly seen.

It seems to be working as intended...

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King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.
Post #: 1
RE: An examination into withdrawls - 6/22/2011 10:35:43 PM   
spelk


Posts: 346
Joined: 10/15/2003
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Glad your back Obsolete, its been like the old Wild West around here .. 


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(in reply to Obsolete)
Post #: 2
RE: An examination into withdrawls - 6/22/2011 10:42:56 PM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		If it's working as intended, then this isn't the game for me.

I finish up my PBEM slugfests till you die scenarios, and I'm outta here.

I'm glad it's working, and I will quit complaining now. Shoot I'll even apologize and ride off into the sunset.

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Post #: 3
RE: An examination into withdrawls - 6/22/2011 11:12:40 PM   
spelk


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From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1
I'm glad it's working, and I will quit complaining now. Shoot I'll even apologize and ride off into the sunset.


Cue the music from The Good, The Bad and the Ugly!

But seriously, I think a lot of the issues raised have been with specific scenarios, so it might be worth investigating those rather than trying to find the problem in an artificial testbed scenario.

A lot of complaints about Withdrawals and their reliability, so its worth an investigation in situ, surely?

< Message edited by spelk -- 6/22/2011 11:13:56 PM >

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RE: An examination into withdrawls - 6/22/2011 11:16:18 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		And here is one where withdrawl did not work.

In the screen shot we have cycled past the German Advance / Withdrawl phase into the US turn

There is a clear hex behind the US unit and he could have withdrawn.

-





-




(in reply to sabre1)
Post #: 5
RE: An examination into withdrawls - 6/22/2011 11:27:39 PM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		Spelk,

I do ride horses, in fact I'm going to be on one in the moutains of CA, this weekend.


Thanks Joe, much appreciated.

< Message edited by sabre1 -- 6/22/2011 11:29:12 PM >

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Post #: 6
RE: An examination into withdrawls - 6/23/2011 1:49:15 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
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quote:

Glad your back Obsolete, its been like the old Wild West around here .. 

Yes, I had mentioned I would be gone for a short while before I left... Though I figured I can't leave for 5 minutes before the whole forums turn upside down... never fails in any game thread it seems.

quote:


But seriously, I think a lot of the issues raised have been with specific scenarios, so it might be worth investigating those rather than trying to find the problem in an artificial testbed scenario.

A lot of complaints about Withdrawals and their reliability, so its worth an investigation in situ, surely?

Yes, I love game investigations & debates. This is the only way we've been able to prove and stop out serious problems in flag-ship titles like TOAW, etc. I'm always interested in looking at data & the nuts & bolts. Though, I am getting sick and tired on other (spefic game forums) where I get the same old -- "I had a 95% chance to kill that Stuart with my Tiger... AND I FAILED!  OMG this game engine is broken!"  :P


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King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.

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Post #: 7
RE: An examination into withdrawls - 6/23/2011 2:28:03 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		In the meantime I"m currently asking even some of the old buddies in the TOAW forums and elsewhere for OPINIONS on this matter.

I also dug out my trusty old TOAW manual (pages falling apart, but still there), on withdrawing from E-ZoC. Despite that TOAW was based on a revolutionary new Time-vs-Action mechanic, the rules are very damn similar:


Disengagement: In the real world it can be quite difficult to break contact with enemy units. When you order a unit to move out of a location adjacent to an enemy unit, that unit will attempt to disengage. Successful disengagement results in normal ordered movement.

Disengagement is automatic if: Your unit is a commando unit. Your unit is either a headquarters or artillery unit, and either the original or destination location is occupied by a friendly unit. Your unit is moving to a destination not adjacent to an enemy unit, and there is a friendly unit in the location being vacated.

Your disengagement chance is improved if: Your unit has a large reconnaissance capability. Your unit began the turn with a very high movement allowance relative to the enemy units.

Your disengagement chance is reduced if: The enemy units have a large reconnaissance capability. Your unit began the turn with a low movement allowance relative to the enemy units.

Should your unit fail to disengage cleanly from the enemy it will be subject to a disengagement attack. This is a short, one sided shot at your unit as it attempts to move. The attack is based on the attack strengths of all enemy units involved, and the defense strength of your moving unit. Only the moving unit will take losses, which may force it to retreat, divide into sub units, or (in a worst case) disband.





< Message edited by Obsolete -- 6/23/2011 2:29:56 AM >

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Post #: 8
RE: An examination into withdrawls - 6/23/2011 8:58:53 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		I did some further testing, this time with withdrawl being automaticaly enforced as the result of combats gone wrong. I was able to move these without a problem when properly rolled.

_____________________________



King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.

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Post #: 9
RE: An examination into withdrawls - 6/23/2011 11:42:41 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

I did some further testing, this time with withdrawl being automaticaly enforced as the result of combats gone wrong.

I was able to move these without a problem when properly rolled.



Refer to post 6 above. The unit did not withdraw.

Or: Withdrawl works sometimes and not other times.

-


(in reply to Obsolete)
Post #: 10
RE: An examination into withdrawls - 6/23/2011 11:54:05 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

In the meantime I"m currently asking .....in the TOAW forums for OPINIONS on this matter



And I asked for opinions in the Banking forums (bankers are always right)

The Bankers agreed the withdrawal feature does not work properly.

Obsolete has been invoiced $200,000.00 advisory fee by the Bankers.
-

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Post #: 11
RE: An examination into withdrawls - 6/23/2011 12:02:27 PM   
PirateJock


Posts: 465
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: North West, UK
Status: offline
quote:

And I asked for opinions in the Banking forums (bankers are always right)

The Bankers agreed the withdrawal feature does not work properly.

Obsolete has been invoiced $200,000.00 advisory fee by the Bankers.


That bankers thinks it's NOT working is a confirmation that it's OK!

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 12
Withdrawing is for losers! - 6/23/2011 12:29:54 PM   
PirateJock


Posts: 465
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: North West, UK
Status: offline 		As I've mentioned before (post) I think withdrawal is working as designed and is not too far off the money with the way it's implemented.

I work on the following ...
  • Withdrawing is a last resort measure
  • You can only withdraw if your exit route is clear, e.g. not passing through any EZoCs. If you MUST withdraw try and improve your potential routes out.
  • If you're in contact with the enemy it's because (i) you believe you can win or (ii) you want to hold his unit(s) in place. If it's because you want to breakthrough then you need more force applied at that point or if that's not feasible it's better to hold than run. If it's because you want to fix the enemy in place then sit tight, running away won't help.
Possible improvements could be:
  • Showing why your withdraw failed, highlighting the blocking enemy unit and/or some text in the combat info box
  • Factoring in the unit type - though I don't think, for example, armour will ALWAYS withdraw ... where's the fun in knowing something is definite!
  • If you are blocked, then allowing a decision of staying where you are or taking your chances against the blocking unit. This one might be too much micromanagement and affect game flow
Cheers

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Post #: 13
RE: Withdrawing is for losers! - 6/23/2011 4:59:11 PM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Refer to post 6 above. The unit did not withdraw.

Or: Withdrawl works sometimes and not other times.


Yes, I would expect that. There are checks in place which can either pass or fail, so even if it LOOKS like you COULD you are not guaranteed to do so.

quote:


And I asked for opinions in the Banking forums (bankers are always right)

Hmm, I think you're being a bit too hard on those boys. There's a lot of army retiries in the TOAW community, not to mention grognards, and quite a few who have spent a number of hours with Combat Command back in the day...


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King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.

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Post #: 14
RE: Withdrawing is for losers! - 6/24/2011 12:13:10 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PirateJock

I work on the following ...
  • Withdrawing is a last resort measure........
Cheers




Well no.

Sometimes I attack what I thought was a weak point. I chose badly. Now I want to withdraw and attack somewhere elese.

Sometimes I have a defensive line and wish to pull back the left flank.

Sometimes, on the attack, the defender receives a "withdraw" result. Hooray ! Now I can advance! Except the unit does not withdraw.

-









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Post #: 15
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 6/24/2011 11:41:05 PM   
PirateJock


Posts: 465
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: North West, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
Well no.

Sometimes I attack what I thought was a weak point. I chose badly. Now I want to withdraw and attack somewhere elese.

Sometimes I have a defensive line and wish to pull back the left flank.

Sometimes, on the attack, the defender receives a "withdraw" result. Hooray ! Now I can advance! Except the unit does not withdraw.

Hi Joe

In the first 2 examples I would think you'd be able to withdraw as long as your route wasn't blocked by another enemy unit/EZoC. Is that right? With the 3rd example, that is something that should be looked at. If the enemy unit doesn't withdraw it should receive extra damage or possibly surrender. At the moment there isn't anything that represents surrendering is there?

Obsolete posted something in the Combat/Movement thread which I think is also worth thinking about when it comes to trying to disengage ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete
You don't have to destroy him to become unstuck, if he blinks first, and tries to withdraw during movement phase, he puts no ZoC pressure on you and you're free to break off as well if you want.

Or if he's determined to stick it out, and no one wants to blink first, the moment you can get at least 2 disruptions on him, he'll be forced into an auto-withdraw and again, this leaves you with no pressure from his ZoC, even if he fails to break off, you got him dead-to-rights since it's unlikely for him to shake off his disruptions while adjacant to you, unless you end up doing something similar.

Units at level 2+ disruptions are not going to pin you, and as a side-note, when enemy tanks come at you, you can try to put a river between you, which negates his ZoC from spilling over the hex-sides.

Cheers

< Message edited by PirateJock -- 6/25/2011 12:22:21 AM >

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 16
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 6/25/2011 3:34:59 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PirateJock

.....the moment you can get at least 2 disruptions on him, he'll be forced into an auto-withdraw




Refer to my screen shot at post 6 in this thread. The unit is at dirsruption 4

It should have withdrawn as a result of the combat and did not

The unit is at disruption 4 and should have auto withdrawn and did not!

-




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Post #: 17
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 6/25/2011 3:59:37 AM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		Shouldn't a unit that recieves a withdrawl during combat and cannot withdraw be destroyed?

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Post #: 18
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 6/25/2011 7:48:02 AM   
PirateJock


Posts: 465
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: North West, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
Refer to my screen shot at post 6 in this thread. The unit is at dirsruption 4

It should have withdrawn as a result of the combat and did not

The unit is at disruption 4 and should have auto withdrawn and did not!

Hi Joe

I agree, from what you can see in the screenshot, you would have thought the unit has a clear route into the hex with the road. The only thing I can think of is that as he's D4 he's got a long way to go (15 movement points) so maybe somewhere along the way he's moving into an EZoC that's stopping the withdrawal ... possibly ... maybe! This is one of those situations where the unit, if the unit is unable to withdraw, it should surrender or be destroyed.

Cheers


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Post #: 19
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 6/25/2011 7:50:41 AM   
PirateJock


Posts: 465
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: North West, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1
Shouldn't a unit that recieves a withdrawl during combat and cannot withdraw be destroyed?

There should be some extra damage caused if a unit should withdraw but can't. Maybe only being destroyed/surrender if it's at D4 though. There's one for the wishlist

Cheers

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Post #: 20
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 6/25/2011 7:57:33 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
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quote:

The unit is at disruption 4 and should have auto withdrawn and did not!


I think there is some misconception here. You may be forced to take a withdraw posture, but this does not mean your withdrawal is going to work just that simple!


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King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.

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Post #: 21
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 6/25/2011 8:45:56 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PirateJock
...so maybe somewhere along the way he's moving into an EZoC that's stopping the withdrawal ... possibly ... maybe!




Nope! I set it up myself.

-

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Post #: 22
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 6/25/2011 8:48:38 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		In the first screen shot, the MG unit "9-18" moved into position.

Then, "15-18" moved through the hexes "3", "6", "9" "12" then to its current hex

The hexes marked with blue cannot be withdrawn into. This is a mystery.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


In the second screen shot, the MG unit did not move.

Instead, "15-18" moved through the same hexes as before.

Note he cannot withdraw into the hexes marked in blue. That he cannot withdraw into those is a mystery.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

In both cases, the German units are in the same position. And therefore in both cases, the hexes he can withdraw to should be exactly the same

I think the program makes mistakes in determining which hexes can be withdrawn into.

And sometimes comes up with "none".

-







-



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Post #: 23
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 6/25/2011 2:52:12 PM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		I'm staying very quiet...

Thanks Joe!

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Post #: 24
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 6/27/2011 7:03:08 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for the Shots Joe. I'll set these up in duplicate and try to examine it a bit. I have some rough theories but nothing concrete just yet.

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Post #: 25
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 6/30/2011 4:07:07 PM   
PirateJock


Posts: 465
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: North West, UK
Status: offline 		Bump for Michael

Cheers

< Message edited by PirateJock -- 6/30/2011 4:08:33 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 7/4/2011 9:18:24 PM   
MichaelCooney

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 1/14/2002
Status: offline 		I think I see what's going on with this. I have some logic set up so that a unit can not go back and forth between two hexes in order to burn the required movement points. I think the problem is that I'm not initializing the "Last Hex Location" value at the start of the withdrawal phase and it's getting carried over from the movement in. So, for example, if you enter a hex from the north, then you won't be able to withdraw into that hex later - it simply won't be given as an option. I'll investigate more.

I'll be traveling for the next few days, so I'll be picking this up again on Friday. I already have a number of fixes in place, so hopefully I'll have something ready for testing a week or two after I get back.

< Message edited by MichaelCooney -- 7/4/2011 9:37:41 PM >

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Post #: 27
RE: An examination into withdrawals - 7/5/2011 12:47:41 PM   
PirateJock


Posts: 465
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: North West, UK
Status: offline 		Good news

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Post #: 28
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