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TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 3:54:57 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Lads!

sPzAbt653 and myself are trying to put together a comprehensive collection of various TOAW TO&E files in order to help current (or future) scenario designers to have quick & easy access without 'wasting' their creative minds with painstaking TO&E research. And here's how it is supposed to work:

The TOAW TO&E files provide templates for unit TO&E's. There are three files, one for the original equipment file that is used by TOAW (named TOAW TOE's-1), the other two are for the alternate WWII equipment files (TOAW TOE's-2 and TOAW TOE's-3). The files are in scenario form, allowing designers to open the desired file and view units and their TO&E's in the editor. All unit TO&E's have been submitted by scenario designers.

You can find units of different countries by using the 'b' key on the keyboard and then typing in the country you are looking for. Hit the spacebar to remove the units from view and reveal if there are footnotes for any unit you are interested in. Footnotes are currently listed in the briefing, but if that gets too large, the footnotes will be moved into a separate text document.

TO&E submissions can be in the form of .xml files (or a .txt or .oob dump the Oberst prefers) or screen shots of the unit(s) in the TOAW editor (the way sPzAbt653 prefers). Submissions can be for any of the three equipment
databases. Submissions are encouraged to include any notes of importance (source, specific features of a unit, name of the submittor, etc.) but are not required. This information will be converted into footnotes (we don't intend to put together extensive notes and explanations).

Feedback naturally is appreciated and I am aware that this is a 'dicey' subject, e.g. why the use of Rifle Squads and NOT Heavy Rifle Squads for certain units etc etc etc. Well, one can easily modify the TO&E for any specific scenario, right? Again, the idea is to give scenario designers a prep'd bundle they can use with ease and without reseraching for, let's say the TO&E for the 653th Eng Rgt in 1942 in Russia...

So lads, keep posting and any suggestions are welcome.

kLiNk, Oberst

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 6/20/2011 4:21:41 AM >

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:06:08 AM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		Uhm...are there enough unit slots? Seriously. Some of the armies changed their unit TO&E as often as one would change a babies diaper. Perhaps time 'slices' would be appropriate. Beginning and mid year maybe.

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:19:03 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		You can still have more than one .OOB file. And the plan is not to list every unit zee Jaymans etc. had. Ir's not gonna be an OOB collection (TO&E it is). So, what's your general feedback Kamerad? ;) And yes, we'll use a kind of 'time stamp' to show when/why this particular unit had a certain TO&E.

kLiNk, Oberst

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 6/20/2011 4:25:09 AM >

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:26:55 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

Some of the armies changed their unit TO&E as often as one would change a babies diaper. Perhaps time 'slices' would be appropriate. Beginning and mid year maybe.


Perhaps like this ??




Attachment (1)

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:30:10 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		... or this ??




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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:31:58 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		In another example, German Welle's can be seen in division form and in the individual division components.




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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:37:33 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Submissions can be in the form of .xml files, .txt or .oob dumps (as the Oberst prefers); or as screen shots for my simple mind, like this :




Attachment (1)

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:38:17 AM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		Of course we are not doing the OOB. If so then you would be certified as insane and get locked away in your own little padded room.

Forgot to ask. What equipment database(s) are you using?

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:40:53 AM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		That would be a lot of screen shots.

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:42:40 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		We intend to keep the footnotes simple.




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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:42:50 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

Uhm...are there enough unit slots? Seriously. Some of the armies changed their unit TO&E as often as one would change a babies diaper. Perhaps time 'slices' would be appropriate. Beginning and mid year maybe.


There's also the difficulty that what the TO&E was in theory, and what it was in practice were two different things.

For example, British infantry divisions had a 'reconnaissance' regiment from at least 1940 on -- in theory. The first time I'm aware of one actually appearing in action was at El Alamein -- and even then, it didn't serve with its parent division.

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:44:03 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		I need to ask someone to please confirm the designer of this Alternate Equipment file :




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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:44:54 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		And also the designer of this Alternate Equipment file :




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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:52:18 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
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From: Germany
Status: offline 		That's fine with me. If they weren't used before/at/after certain campaigns the scenario designer just drops them. But it's nice to have the TO&E of the Reece Rgt. *pls send*

kLiNk, Oberst

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:55:10 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

That would be a lot of screen shots.


I like screen shots ... what's wrong with screen shots ??

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 4:59:24 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

What equipment database(s) are you using?


Um ... explained in post 1 ? (all three).

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 12:37:51 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		Yes, I see three are named. But where does one find them? Can I do a search using those file names to locate them? I don't recall having come across those particular ones but the game is several years old so I imagine there are quite a few different equipment databases running about.

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/20/2011 2:09:30 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		There are only three that I know of that have to do with WWII, the original and the two I posted screen shots of above. The file names above are what we renamed them. I don't know where they are, I think we pass them around ourselves, or maybe they are on Gamesquad.

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Post #: 18
RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/21/2011 7:47:13 PM   
samba_liten


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Currently in Kiev
Status: offline 		I believe both of them are still on Gamesquad, if you take the time to browse through the download section.

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/22/2011 12:33:29 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		sPz and Oberst
Great idea!
my two pfennigs:
MMG/HMG issue:  I feel the MMG is the standard company/battalion level MG.  Despite the terminology published TOE referring to HMG,  in the HMG in TOAW refers the .50cal/12.5 MG (note that  the AP/AT values for  HMG are the same as the AAMG in TOAW).  Thus assigning the 7.62mm/7.92mm as an HMG confers a greater AT strength to the unit...

Similarly, and this is more of a personal opinion here, the standard German rifle squad should be Heavy Rifle Squad vs Rifle Squad for the Soviets, and include only the heavy weapon platoon/company MG in the assigned equipment roster.  (I cannot accept a German 7.92mm MG34 with an assistant gunner and 500 round basic load, would be equivalent to a Soviet 7.62 DPMG with half the basic load).  This has been discussed on the Forum my better experts than I and I am not sure there is a concurrence...

Transport (again, this has been an issue of several Forum topics), I feel the transport value represents transport assets, not actual vehicles.  I put is a low number for leg infantry and adjust it to give a reasonable rate of movement (maybe 50 km a day for a fresh unit on a road), and a similar but much higher number for motorized units.  In Road to Moscow for TOAW- I Crossing the Boarder, 12 truck units and 12 horse-drawn units gives an initial movement rate of 6 (@ one-day turns/10-km hex).  Even this appear to be a bit high, but rapidly degrades to a rate consistent with the German advance.  Whereas the sample TOE above of 93 trucks would give a rate of 9.

Just a couple of minor points- great idea!



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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/22/2011 1:16:38 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Good points Rob, and this was a good place to post them.

I've looked at the MG values also and agree that the only MG with an actual 'HMG' value is the .50 cal. I believe that when fine tuning a scenario we can juggle the squad types and number of MG's in order to get it 'right', as determined by the designer for each particular scenario.

Our overall intention is to provide the basic unit outlines based on the actual data sources that we have access to, and to leave the actual final determination of what is to be used to represent individual squads up to the designer. In reality, it would happen this way anyway.

Transport is another area of abstraction. I agree that '1 Truck' in TOAW is not one truck. As with the squads and mg's, the scenario designer will tailor the movement allowances to the scenario. When putting together a scenario, after the scales are set I check what the 'foot rate' of a unit is, and what the 'pure motorised' rate is. Then as the oob is built I have base values to use. I imagine other designers do the same thing.

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/22/2011 3:38:22 AM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Transport is another area of abstraction. I agree that '1 Truck' in TOAW is not one truck. As with the squads and mg's, the scenario designer will tailor the movement allowances to the scenario. When putting together a scenario, after the scales are set I check what the 'foot rate' of a unit is, and what the 'pure motorised' rate is. Then as the oob is built I have base values to use. I imagine other designers do the same thing.


Where things really get screwed up is when you have a unit with halftracks. They are both abstract transport and individual armored personel carriers.

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/23/2011 5:25:17 AM   
Jo van der Pluym


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From: Valkenburg Lb, Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

And also the designer of this Alternate Equipment file :





The designer is Bil Wilson or cathar1244

He was also busy with a modern equipment database. I have nothing hear from him after september 2009, does somebody know why?

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/23/2011 11:18:53 AM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I need to ask someone to please confirm the designer of this Alternate Equipment file :





Derek Weichs aka Panzer_War did this. Download here: http://forums.gamesquad.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=1064

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/23/2011 11:22:39 AM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
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From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

And also the designer of this Alternate Equipment file :





The designer is Bil Wilson or cathar1244

He was also busy with a modern equipment database. I have nothing hear from him after september 2009, does somebody know why?


Download here: http://forums.gamesquad.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=2002 The download contains a scenario using he database, a modified version of Arracourt 44

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/23/2011 12:32:24 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Thanks Jo and Telu, now we can properly credit these.


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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/23/2011 1:34:49 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		Would either of the equipment files mentioned by Telumar or Jo be the (TOAW TOE's-2 and TOAW TOE's-3) mentioned above by Klink? Or are the two mentioned by him yet more equipment files?

I'm merely looking for some consistancy.

< Message edited by Panama -- 6/23/2011 1:36:07 PM >

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/23/2011 8:11:07 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

There are three files, one for the original equipment file that is used by TOAW (named TOAW TOE's-1), the other two are for the alternate WWII equipment files (TOAW TOE's-2 and TOAW TOE's-3).


'2' is the Derek Weichs database, '3' is the Bill Wilson database.

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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/23/2011 8:58:04 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline 		Partly referring to what HPT KUNZ said..

There is a main difference between the two equipment databases. That is that in Derek Weichs' database the MGs are higher rated in AP than in Bill Wilson's. This also goes into the rifle squads which have generally higher AP ratings in Derek Weich's database.

Also note that HEAT ratings for infantry AT weapons (PIAT, Bazooka etc) are higher in both databases than in the default one.

As for the initial topic..
Where to post submissions? Here? Or per e-mail? I would rather do it here hoping for additional feedback, creative discussion etc.


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RE: TOAW TO&E files - 6/23/2011 11:54:24 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

There is a main difference between the two equipment databases.


Yes, I noticed this because at one time I was considering combining both, but they obviously used different base values, and theories. This is why we (you included) decided it would be best to include all three databases. Additionally, with all three being used, we can incorporate submissions directly into the one used, rather than us trying to modify submissions to fit one or the other. In the end, it is up to designers to decide which database they prefer, and to make any TOE adjustments that they seem fit for the particular scenario they are working on.

quote:

Where to post submissions?


Any way you like. Our e-mails area available in our profiles. Posting screenies here is nice. Klink would rather have .xml's, but make submissions any way you like, we will sort it out.

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Post #: 30
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