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RE: Russo-German War - AAR

 
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RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/1/2011 3:46:01 PM   
dougb

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marjur


quote:

ORIGINAL: dougb

A design philosophy that eschews the Grigsby et al. approach of throwing in everything including the last Kitchen battalion, thereby ensuring the player is overwhelmed by micromanagement of countless units and a dizzying array of numbers. Instead of including every goddamn assault gun battalion Dockal abstracts this into support points that can be assigned by headquarters. Very nice, and to my mind a much superior method of simulation at the front or theatre level.



A lot of people love the detail, and they would say something exactly opposite, i.e. that lack of such details is RGW's greatest weakness...




Yes some people love the detail - and they're welcome to it. I bought WITE and still like to load it up now and then - however after a few turns I find that it just gets tedious. It's unfortunate that they didn't include many more small scenarios in the game. I think that Grigby's earlier WIR was superior to WITE from the standpoint that it utilized corps as the manouver containers for divisions.


Best wishes,

Doug



(in reply to marjur)
Post #: 31
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/1/2011 6:25:33 PM   
spelk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marjur
A lot of people love the detail, and they would say something exactly opposite, i.e. that lack of such details is RGW's greatest weakness...


You see, I think the abstraction of detail in RGW is one of its greatest strengths. Its basically a board game, one that could be played with cardboard chits and a paper map if you so wish. But its on the PC, and the rules are well defined and the operational choices are there and surpass many other PC based operational titles. Even War in the East! Despite all its granularity of data!

Despite one or two quirky UI design choices, RGW is approachable by all players who want to experience operational warfare on the Eastern Front. WiTE goes some way towards hiding all the details and complexity behind UI layers, but ultimately I think its less approachable than RGW despite its more modern UI.


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Post #: 32
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/1/2011 6:41:19 PM   
spelk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marjur
Schwerpunkt's so-called "Design Philosophy" is a handful of general cliches that are equally applicable to most, if not all, companies producing wargames.


I think Ron has taken his design philosophy seriously as a document to work with, no matter how general some of the requirements seem. I think his dream was to create interesting operational games that appealed to board wargamers, without ploughing a lot of resources into graphical content and pushing the system requirements up. I think he fulfils these aims quite well. And as I've said before, the games he's crafted on his own, have been very approachable, replayable, interesting conflicts that are straightforward in their presentation. He lacks a lot of depth in unit background information, but a lot of historical research has gone into the games to make what you have an accurate (but abstracted) representation of the conflict and a myriad of scenarios throughout the era covered.

The key element unique to Schwerpunkt games for me is "Simulate these battles, which are in some cases one-sided, using a victory point system that compares players capabilities to their historical counterparts."

Its just so satisfying to be able to compare on a turn by turn basis against the historical outcomes. How many abstracted wargames give you this sort of measure against history itself?

quote:

ORIGINAL: marjur
Any Matrix's flagship products, such as Close Combat, TOAW, WitE, Advanced Tactics, and so on, has probably attracted a lot more people to the genre than RGW has.


Compared to those titles, Schwerpunkt games are small cookies. But in my opinion, the cookies are amongst the tastiest in the wargame biscuit barrel. I mean as much as I love Vic and his Decisive Campaigns game, Advanced Tactics really only shines in historical terms when players craft up scenarios for the game. Otherwise AT is simply a generic strategy title.

I'd go as far as saying I wish Matrix would snap up Ron's titles and push them into the limelight afforded by their distribution network. All of the Schwerpunkt series would sit nicely in the Matrix catalogue and the downloadable distriution option would be most welcomed by overseas players.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marjur
It's ironic that a company who wants to "Attract new wargamers by appealing to people who enjoy history and love a game that is fun to play AND offers a challenge." produce one of the most cumbersome wargames around...


I guess we're going to have to disagree here, even to label RGW as cumbersome I have a problem - there are quirks with the interface, but hell most wargames miss the sweet spot of having perfect UI's. RGW's initial use of the right click context menu was as straightforward to use as it can get. There might be a lot of clicking to set up the many different phased operational procedures, but again, these are operational wargames with lots of choice and a lot of unit chits to manage - so clicking I can live with. Every game on the planet has a lot of clicking in it.

< Message edited by spelk -- 7/1/2011 6:44:37 PM >

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Post #: 33
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/2/2011 1:45:28 AM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		^+1, and nicely written Spelk!


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Post #: 34
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/2/2011 2:03:42 AM   
oldspec4

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 11/1/2004
Status: offline 		Agree...very well written.

I have been following the AAR and really like the concept of comparing the player's progress to the historical outcome.

I have looked at the Schwerpunkt games for some time but never did squeeze the trigger to purchase. That may change now.


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Post #: 35
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/2/2011 2:05:15 AM   
marjur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spelk

. . . I guess we're going to have to disagree here . . .



spelk, who cares what you agree or disagree with...

The main purpose of my posts was to give the readers some info on this game - so that apart from the opinions of a clique, they also have an independent opinion, and consequently they won't be fooled so easily into buying this junk -

- and that has been accomplished

cheerio


< Message edited by marjur -- 7/2/2011 2:06:47 AM >

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Post #: 36
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/2/2011 3:08:19 AM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		Majur,

A gentleman? Highly unlikely, and bashing developers and members is not polite. Your reply and any other comments are not worth bothering with.

Removed from my read list my good man by the little green button.

(in reply to marjur)
Post #: 37
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/2/2011 6:14:40 AM   
m5000.2006


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marjur

The interface is the most awkward, clunky, unfriendly, and unnecessarily complicated I've come across in a wargame for Windows, comparable only to equally abysmal user interfaces in the wargames produced in the DOS era. It relies on numerous pesky, totally unintuitive key combinations (e.g. including combinations with Shift, Control, Alt!!! ). It's really hard to design a wargame whose interface would be more off-putting...

The producer must have forgotten they're making it for Windows, not DOS. That's really the main problem with this game. The UI screws everything else up...



Well, I'd agree with this opinion, although probably I'd use more euphemisms. I tried this game at my friend's a couple of years ago and although historically it seemed OK, the UI spoiled the whole fun.

This is not something I'd recommend to anybody, and as for the producer, in my view, he/she should have worked more on the UI before releasing this game.

My 3 cents.

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"I don't much care where –" said Alice.
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat.
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(in reply to marjur)
Post #: 38
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/2/2011 8:14:54 AM   
spelk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marjur
quote:

ORIGINAL: spelk
. . . I guess we're going to have to disagree here . . .


spelk, who cares what you agree or disagree with...


Just laying down the fact that we're obviously not going to see eye to eye on this matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marjur
The main purpose of my posts was to give the readers some info on this game - so that apart from the opinions of a clique, they also have an independent opinion, and consequently they won't be fooled so easily into buying this junk -


The trouble is you gave an opinion, but as far as I could see didn't back it up with any reasoned arguments. If your task was to impart information to the others here, then speak up with the reasons. Everyone can give an opinion, but it only makes sense (and can be useful) when you add the reasons behind your opinion.

As for there being a clique, I'm not really sure what you're getting at - I'm in no clique, unless you mean poster who frequent the Matrix forums.

Also, you think by people giving their opinion about the game, and posting the reasons, their purpose is to "fool" others into buying this game? I think perhaps you need to look further into why you post comments here at all. No one is attempting to fool anyone, we're just commenting on the game itself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marjur
- and that has been accomplished
cheerio


Yes, Mission Accomplished, you've thrown in your negative statements about the game, without backing them up with any sort of reasoned argument. You've saved the poor souls who might be "fooled" by the evil clique conspiring against them to coax dollars out of their wallets to fund Schwerpunkt's World Domination. Well done!

But seriously, I wasn't trying to be combative at all, I just wanted to hear your opinions backed up with reasons I could understand.

I am a fan of the Schwerpunkt games, it has to be said, or I wouldn't be running an AAR series on my blog! Since I enjoy the games, I'm more than willing to extol its virtues, but hopefully for balance, point out its failings. All in all, its still only MY opinion, and I'm not trying to fool anyone into buying the game. I have no ties with the company or the game at all.

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Post #: 39
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/2/2011 8:19:03 AM   
spelk


Posts: 346
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From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m5000.2006
Well, I'd agree with this opinion, although probably I'd use more euphemisms. I tried this game at my friend's a couple of years ago and although historically it seemed OK, the UI spoiled the whole fun.


Would be interesting to hear WHY you think the UI spoiled the fun, since you appreciate the historic accuracy of the title.

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Post #: 40
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/2/2011 1:32:57 PM   
m5000.2006


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spelk

Would be interesting to hear WHY you think the UI spoiled the fun, since you appreciate the historic accuracy of the title.



I didn't say I appreciated its historic accuracy, I said that "historically it seemed OK". I'm not an expert on history so I can't tell whether the scenarios were very accurate, but they seemed OK, and there were quite a lot of them if I remember, covering numerous operations.

I don't remember the details because as I said I tried it a couple of years ago, but from what I remember, the game seemed... , well, too boardgame-like, if you know what I mean. Now, there's probably nothing wrong with that, there's no accounting for taste, but for me boardgames are boardgames, and computer games are computer games - they are two different breeds, so to speak. So, I'd expect something more from a computer game than just a board and a few counters. If I want to play a boardgame, then I play a boardgame, and when I want to play a computer game, a have a different set of expectations.

As the guy above said, the keyboard commands did feel clunky to me as well, well, they just did, what else is there to say here? The game simply felt sort of "too dry", "too paper-like". So, it quickly put me off. My friend played it a bit longer, but if I remember he also gave up soon.

Now, the game has certainly potential, but as I said above, IMO it needs reworking of the UI, and some more computer-game feel. Otherwise, I guess it'll probably be played only by the most hardcore grognards.



_____________________________

"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.
"I don't much care where –" said Alice.
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat.
LC

(in reply to spelk)
Post #: 41
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/14/2011 9:09:29 AM   
spelk


Posts: 346
Joined: 10/15/2003
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Turn 7 in the Crimean Push. I think the end is near for the Russians.
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=3062

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Post #: 42
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/14/2011 4:19:17 PM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		Well Spelk, you did better than I did. I only managed a C. Thanks for the AAR, I enjoyed it.

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Post #: 43
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/15/2011 2:00:50 PM   
spelk


Posts: 346
Joined: 10/15/2003
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		I think I was lucky early on with the rolls. Also being able to knock troops from one conflict into the path of another unit ready to attack is a winning mechanic in the Schwerpunkt games.

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Post #: 44
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/15/2011 7:48:29 PM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		Spelk,

In case you miss my post at wargamer in the Friday thread:

Give Combat Command a try. It definitely has grognard goodness. The developer is so far working at making it better, and the more players we have the better.

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Post #: 45
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/15/2011 9:09:40 PM   
spelk


Posts: 346
Joined: 10/15/2003
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Ahhh, sabre1 and epee1 are the same person!! I get it now!

I've already dabbled a bit in the game. Was planning an AAR with Chip from Fog of Wargames, on the Heraklion scenario but we had mucho problems getting the PBEM to work - so we shelved it for the moment.

When I hear back from Chip, we'll probably look into a Pacific theatre scenario.

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Post #: 46
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/15/2011 9:34:07 PM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		Sounds good, and if you want to do a PBEM with me, well, I'm easy. lol

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Post #: 47
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/15/2011 10:55:49 PM   
spelk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1
Sounds good, and if you want to do a PBEM with me, well, I'm easy. lol


If I can clear up some of my AAR writing backlog, I might take you up on that offer Epee1! :)

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Post #: 48
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 7/21/2011 8:54:01 AM   
spelk


Posts: 346
Joined: 10/15/2003
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Turn 8 results in a combat-less "calm before the storm"
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=3110

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Post #: 49
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 8/9/2011 7:35:41 AM   
spelk


Posts: 346
Joined: 10/15/2003
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Turn 9, the penultimate push is up
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=3133

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Post #: 50
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 8/9/2011 12:33:44 PM   
lecrop


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RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 8/9/2011 1:04:24 PM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		Good job Spelk. Your AAR has encouraged me to boot RGW back up again.

< Message edited by sabre1 -- 8/9/2011 10:51:10 PM >

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Post #: 52
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 8/9/2011 7:19:15 PM   
spelk


Posts: 346
Joined: 10/15/2003
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1
Good job Spelk. Your AAR is encouraged me to boot RGW back up again.


Excellent news, it kind of makes the hours spent cutting up screenshots and wrestling with the web content management system all worth it.

I'm hoping to do an AGW one at some point, and perhaps a Middle East run through the Yom Kippur War or something like that.. Looking forward to some of the changes proposed in the new World War II Europe title currently being developed.

Heres a list of the changes/suggestions being considered for the new title.
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.aspx?high=&m=552904&mpage=1#556573

And heres the official Scenario list of WWIIE
http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/Eurscen.html

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Post #: 53
RE: Russo-German War - AAR - 8/16/2011 10:15:39 PM   
spelk


Posts: 346
Joined: 10/15/2003
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Turn 10 - the final turn - the conclusion to the German invasion of the Crimean Peninsula.
http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=3153

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