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Spain or Russia - 7/18/2011 9:37:38 PM

dougofdeath

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I don't know if this is the appropriate place for such a question (I don't see many strategy threads on the boards). Anyway I was wondering what people thought about the German player going for Spain/Gibralter as opposed to going after Russia in 1941.

I've tried Russia in '41 without much success. Always seemed to get bogged down well short of what could be considered a victory.

I've never tried Spain/Gibralter before, but I can see the benefits (control of Med, threat to convoys, harm to CW, etc...) and the detriment (early US entry, no real Russia campaign).

Love to hear peoples thoughts.

Thanks.

Post #: 1

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/18/2011 10:12:38 PM

brian brian

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There are a lot of strategy threads buried a little deeper on this board....but if you haven't had much luck in a '41 Barb as the Germans, perhaps you should look into your tactics instead. Ask away...

(in reply to dougofdeath)

Post #: 2

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/18/2011 10:15:32 PM

composer99

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I believe the Germany AI thread is most likely to have some ine-depth discussion on the Mediterranean strategy for Germany.

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RE: Spain or Russia - 7/18/2011 10:57:43 PM

dougofdeath

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Ok, I'm asking.
1) The player I play against is an experienced gamer. Doesn't set-up a forward defence in Russia and utilizes forests and cities to make speed bumps. Purpose of this defence is to slow the German advance (especially in the north).
2) Speaking of which a rapid advance in the north seems very difficult due to the many forests and cities. By the time I'm past Vitebsk/Pskov/Smolensk winter has arrived and the drive stalls.
3) Same experience in the South with the stall taking place trying to cross the Dneiper river (and in the cities beyond).
4) In the '42 season progress is made, but not sufficient to harm USSR so that they are not a major factor at the end.
5) We play with Divs, 2D10 combat, no engineers, no forts.

Some things I'm considering:
1) Is there a really "neat" or effective way to use the offensive chits. I generally use one a Land action while crossing the Dneiper. Never tried the Air option. Am I missing something?
2) I haven't tried it, but a larger concentration of armor in the south looks like a better idea given the terrain.
3) I've never forced my way into Lenningrad in two games. Should this be the major focus of Army Group North/Center for the first year?

(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 4

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/18/2011 11:37:25 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dougofdeath

Ok, I'm asking.
1) The player I play against is an experienced gamer. Doesn't set-up a forward defence in Russia and utilizes forests and cities to make speed bumps. Purpose of this defence is to slow the German advance (especially in the north).
2) Speaking of which a rapid advance in the north seems very difficult due to the many forests and cities. By the time I'm past Vitebsk/Pskov/Smolensk winter has arrived and the drive stalls.
3) Same experience in the South with the stall taking place trying to cross the Dneiper river (and in the cities beyond).
4) In the '42 season progress is made, but not sufficient to harm USSR so that they are not a major factor at the end.
5) We play with Divs, 2D10 combat, no engineers, no forts.

Some things I'm considering:
1) Is there a really "neat" or effective way to use the offensive chits. I generally use one a Land action while crossing the Dneiper. Never tried the Air option. Am I missing something?
2) I haven't tried it, but a larger concentration of armor in the south looks like a better idea given the terrain.
3) I've never forced my way into Lenningrad in two games. Should this be the major focus of Army Group North/Center for the first year?

Without knowing any of the particulars of your opponent's defensive line, ...

- The USSR has limited resources and has to be weak somewhere.
- Germany has much more air, armor, and just plain strength factors.
- Therefore Germany should focus its strengths on the USSR's weaknesses and strip their own line to a minimum in some places if that is what is required to overwhelm the USSR defenders at one point in their line.
- Having the USSR attack a weakened section of the German line would be lovely from the German perspective.
- Saving a single tactical air unit (a weak one) for defensive ground support provides an emergency boost to anyplace the USSR might decide to attack.
- Only make very good attacks against road bumps. But don't even bother attacking them if it is going to reduce your ability to punch through somewhere. Don't dilute your attacking force.
- I envision full strength hexes of attacking units in one section of the front line, with another set of full strength units immediately behind them. The latter's purpose is to follow up and add to the pressure.
- The USSR's front line gets longer the further into Russia you advance. You need to have a lot of units to maintain a solid line of attacking units along the section of the front you are attacking.
- The USSR will typically maintain a mobile reserve of some sort. That is what you want to ground strike. Preventing the USSR from redeploying his units to cover any breach (or threatened breach) in his line is vital to Germany's success.

The above advice is based on playing hundred of wargames, not just WIF. It applies to Amercian Civil War battles and Napoleonic conflicts too.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to dougofdeath)

Post #: 5

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/19/2011 4:15:35 AM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

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They're completely different strategies, and even going for Gibraltar has its own sub-strategies. You can try for a Sealion, invading the UK, you can use it as a springboard for a '42 Barbarossa with a drive through Persia and Iraq, you can use it to dominate the Med and just hunker down. (Although this gets boring)

Generally, I've found that a '41 Barbarossa produces a decisive victory somewhere, usually in the hands of the better tactician between the Soviet player and the German player. The 42 options tend to be a much more strategic game, with more about how the Allies allocate force over several threatened theaters than one big push in the Ukrainian steppes.

If you've never done it before, you should try it at least once. My single most enjoyable game of WiF was a Spain and Mediterranian hit, where I poured troops into the UK in early 42., driving them and the Americans (who were starting to send limited aid over) before me, and shoving them all the way to Scotland. It was glorious.

Then I lost Berlin to the soviets. That part didn't go so well.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 6

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/19/2011 5:58:08 PM

Ullern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: dougofdeath

Ok, I'm asking.
1) The player I play against is an experienced gamer. Doesn't set-up a forward defence in Russia and utilizes forests and cities to make speed bumps. Purpose of this defence is to slow the German advance (especially in the north).
2) Speaking of which a rapid advance in the north seems very difficult due to the many forests and cities. By the time I'm past Vitebsk/Pskov/Smolensk winter has arrived and the drive stalls.
3) Same experience in the South with the stall taking place trying to cross the Dneiper river (and in the cities beyond).
4) In the '42 season progress is made, but not sufficient to harm USSR so that they are not a major factor at the end.
5) We play with Divs, 2D10 combat, no engineers, no forts.

Some things I'm considering:
1) Is there a really "neat" or effective way to use the offensive chits. I generally use one a Land action while crossing the Dneiper. Never tried the Air option. Am I missing something?
2) I haven't tried it, but a larger concentration of armor in the south looks like a better idea given the terrain.
3) I've never forced my way into Lenningrad in two games. Should this be the major focus of Army Group North/Center for the first year?

Without knowing any of the particulars of your opponent's defensive line, ...

- The USSR has limited resources and has to be weak somewhere.
- Germany has much more air, armor, and just plain strength factors.
- Therefore Germany should focus its strengths on the USSR's weaknesses and strip their own line to a minimum in some places if that is what is required to overwhelm the USSR defenders at one point in their line.
- Having the USSR attack a weakened section of the German line would be lovely from the German perspective.
- Saving a single tactical air unit (a weak one) for defensive ground support provides an emergency boost to anyplace the USSR might decide to attack.
- Only make very good attacks against road bumps. But don't even bother attacking them if it is going to reduce your ability to punch through somewhere. Don't dilute your attacking force.
- I envision full strength hexes of attacking units in one section of the front line, with another set of full strength units immediately behind them. The latter's purpose is to follow up and add to the pressure.
- The USSR's front line gets longer the further into Russia you advance. You need to have a lot of units to maintain a solid line of attacking units along the section of the front you are attacking.
- The USSR will typically maintain a mobile reserve of some sort. That is what you want to ground strike. Preventing the USSR from redeploying his units to cover any breach (or threatened breach) in his line is vital to Germany's success.

The above advice is based on playing hundred of wargames, not just WIF. It applies to Amercian Civil War battles and Napoleonic conflicts too.

If there really is no real fighting because he sets up rear you should attack earlier. Opening on a snow impulse is often grand as long as there are no heavy fights, and USSR doesn't really have a lot of good white print units to make counter attacks in 41 and 42. But earlier than Maj/Jun 41 is hard to do because of everything you need to do before that, and because attacking that early then the USSR reserves would easily make him larger than you are (and that's a no!no! so it depends on how well Poland and France went).

You shouldn't attack in 41 at all if you didn't empty your ARM force pool in Nov/Dec 40 and your MECH force pool in Jan/Feb 41. Then a well prepared Mar/Apr 42 attack may be better. Possibly: if he's going to have his reserves face up when the real fighting is starting anyway, then you might even consider Jan/Feb 42 if the weather first impulse is snow and the distance to the fighting is long. For a winter attack: Be sure to align Finland first and have a Finnish unit encircle Leningrad on the frozen lake, and use the winter bonus the Fins have to attack either Leningrad or Murmansk if either is poorly defended.

Regardless: Forget about pushing for Leningrad from the south, and use all your bombers in Ukraine. (If Finland actually took Leningrad you might want to reconsider that.)

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 7

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/19/2011 7:11:05 PM

composer99

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Once Leningrad is isolated from the rest of the USSR it can simply be screened until you muster up (1) either big units or winterized units, (2) some engineers, and (3) an o-chit to crush it.

One big hindrance to Germany is the limited number of air activities it has available on a land action.

One way to get around that is the Italian air force; another way is using o-chits on super-combined impulses (if you are using o-points as introduced in the recent Annual, which MWiF won't, you can perform a land + air action instead of a full super-combined). Or you can do both.

While the Red Army is mostly crap, I don't think you need to be concerned if it has more pieces on the map than you do. If the 3-5 factor units try coming out to play, they can be easily swatted aside. This changes by late '42 and going forward as the USSR will have much better (land) units on the map, in particular if they have been lucky enough to get Guard Banner Armies.

Don't be afraid of attacking in snow; having your MTN units built out and schlepping Finnish forces onto the main front helps in this regard. Especially if you undertake snow attacks late in the turn when the higher risk of becoming disorganized is less of a problem, it might be crucial to breaking his line. Don't be afraid of attacking in rain if you punch 1-2 hexes across the line - it makes if much harder for him to retreat!

Avoid/bypass & screen speed bumps everywhere you can. If you must destroy them, as described above make sure they are very good attacks.

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Post #: 8

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/19/2011 8:51:34 PM

Centuur

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An DoW on Russia defending this way should be made in a snow impulse in J/F or M/A. Clear up the speed bumps in Poland and the Baltics (and perhaps Odessa to) in that turn (If Leningrad isn't properly defended, attack it with Finnish troops. However beware: if you commit/lose to many units there, a couple of Soviet CAV might go racing towards Helsinki...). Than slowly but orderly move towards the Soviet lines. Make one front you're attack point (double stacks with ARM/MECH there. In the first fine weather impulse, use you're Offensive chit for a super combined, ground strike a lot of units on that front (all adjacent hexes), do a couple of high odds attacks on that front (the south is usually better than the north) to make breakthroughs. Next impulse, move you're units through those gaps and try to put the Russian front (with all those disrupted units) out of supply (no reorganisation of them). At that impulse, try to attack the cities (when you've got good odds, if not, simply let the Russian there intact. They will die later when you've got more hexes to attack them from...)
Keep some of you're airforce in reserve (or reorganise them with HQ's) so when the Russian armoured reserve comes you're way, you will be able to ground strike them.
Also: don't get disrupted early in a turn. If the turn might end soon, this isn't that much of a problem, so I would kill Russians later in the turn at lower odds (but always keep in mind that you, as the Germans, should take only Div or Inf losses).
The Russian has a choice than: to react by putting his armoured reserve and HQ's into battle (and those units are the best he has, so if you can ground strike them, always do so) or withdraw.
I also won't worry about entering Russia with a armoured kill stack ahead of you're front in M/J or J/A turns. As long as they stay organised, the Russians haven't got the forces to kill them, without making large gaps in the line.
Same goes for you're defense. One unit a hex is good enough. The odd bomber with low tactical factors you've got in reserve for defense makes it pretty hard to kill you. And if the Russians do succeed in killing an INF it doesn't matter at that point. It might probably mean more Russian units disrupted (nice to kill later...).
It is offensive you should focus on, not defence. Defence is only needed to prevent the Russians from putting you out of supply or recapturing cities or resources.

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Peter

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Post #: 9

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/20/2011 10:32:11 PM

Centuur

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I didn't answer the question Spain or Russia.
My answer is:

It depends on the strategy chosen before the production phase of S/O 1939.
At that point Germany should make the necessary decisions. Choices are:
- Barbarossa after France
- Med after France than Sealion
- Med after France than Barbarossa.

All three strategies needs different production.
Barbarossa means building all German HQ's (and maybe even one in advance), ARM, MECH, LND3, ATR, PARA, MTN and INF.
Med after France than Sealion means building all German NAV, MTN, PARA, MAR, AMPH, TRS and Ships and all kinds of planes and subs to hurt CW convoys and do strategic bombing.
Med after France than Barbarossa means building all German NAV, MTN, PARA, LND3, and later HQ's, ARM, MECH.

Of course, FTR and garrisons should be available in all three of those strategies...

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Post #: 10

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/21/2011 12:53:21 AM

brian brian

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yes, standard military strategy applies in a huge way to WiF. But the difference in this game is that you can have an impact on the enemy's production of reinforcements. So in Barbarossa, strike hard in the south....that's where the Russian resources are. Screen Leningrad. Attack at high odds, but risks are worth it if you block railing out a factory. It's all about the economy, stupid. (As they say in American politics). And thus it is also important to restrict Russian access to western resources. The Japanese and Italians can help you here. In addition to the Italian expeditionary air force in Russia, an Italian SUB fleet based in Hamburg can be a big help.

Overall, I like Axis strategies that result in the Axis controlling the Middle East, this gives you the best chance of standing up to the Jolly Green Giant.

(in reply to Centuur)

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RE: Spain or Russia - 7/23/2011 6:02:57 PM

Orm

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If you have a difficulty getting to the Soviet main force because of the speed bumps do not be overly concerned. Just cheerfully kill them of. Just make sure that you attack on so good odds that your units does not become disorganized. Try to make at least 3 high odds attack each impulse and you will soon kill enough speed bumps to hurt him.

Against speed bumbs it can be good to advance as far as possible, even out of supply with some units, in order for him to have trouble retreating and to make easier attacks next impulse.

As a moral boast you can count on how many of his lousy units you kill. I would not be suprised if you kill some 40 Soviet corps during the first 2 turns if he just uses speed bumps to slow you down.

The more speed bumbs you kill off the weaker the defence line he will have when he stops running. And then you should have an offensive to try to crush him or at least get a HQ or so. Maybe even split his defence line.

Edit: Spelling.

< Message edited by Orm -- 7/23/2011 8:39:40 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/23/2011 7:41:09 PM

oscar72se

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I agree with Orm, but I would also like to add that it is important to remember that your advance will be exactly as fast as your fastest moving HQs. So, it is vital that you secure supply lines deep into Russian territory and always keep your HQs on the move. You will get as far as four hexes in front of the HQ furthest into Russia. Be really careful before you flip an HQ

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to dougofdeath)

Post #: 13

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/23/2011 9:33:00 PM

Centuur

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Partially right. You can move any unit, without it getting disorganised, if it's in supply at the beginning of the movement phase. If, for example, you've got an fast ARM-MECH stack in supply in a breakthrough hex capable to move out of enemy ZOC's, there might be some very nice targets in range of those units. If you're than waiting for your HQ's to catch up, you're making a mistake. Simply move to those hexes and grab them. Don't get disorganised while doing so is enough. You can always opt to stay in that hex, untill you are back in supply.

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Post #: 14

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/23/2011 10:06:05 PM

oscar72se

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Partially right. You can move any unit, without it getting disorganised, if it's in supply at the beginning of the movement phase. If, for example, you've got an fast ARM-MECH stack in supply in a breakthrough hex capable to move out of enemy ZOC's, there might be some very nice targets in range of those units. If you're than waiting for your HQ's to catch up, you're making a mistake. Simply move to those hexes and grab them. Don't get disorganised while doing so is enough. You can always opt to stay in that hex, untill you are back in supply.

I am speaking from a strategic point of view. Of course you will have to move your units in and out of supply from to time. But when you plan your Barbarossa you will need to consider the speed of your HQs as they determine "the speed of the grey wave"

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 15

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/24/2011 5:09:23 PM

Centuur

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I agree on that. I really like the Russian steppes since it is the only place in the game where tactical moves become very important. There simply aren't enough units (especially in the early years) to keep a solid front when playing there. I can't wait to do such things in China or Siberia in MWIF with far more hexes available. I probably will build Japanese CAV and ARM/MECH now, since there are going to be many holes in the frontlines now. I didn't bother with those units in the boardgame, since they weren't that usefull on the pacific map.

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Post #: 16

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/25/2011 7:43:39 AM

oscar72se

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Yes, it will be totally exciting to see what effects the new Pacific map will have on the game. I'm guessing that partisans will be an even bigger nuisance than before

. I agree with you, it would propably be wise to get a MECH or two in order to blitz lonesome Chinese INFs

and/or limiting his options for a solid defense line.

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 17

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/25/2011 10:19:21 AM

Red Prince

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Here's a shot of the main Chinese front. It's from just after setting up Japan for a Missed the Bus scenario (not a terrific setup, but what can I say), at Zoom Level 2. Sorry about the image quality -- I had to reduce it to get the jpg under 500 kb.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 18

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/25/2011 12:20:36 PM

oscar72se

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Here's a shot of the main Chinese front. It's from just after setting up Japan for a Missed the Bus scenario (not a terrific setup, but what can I say), at Zoom Level 2. Sorry about the image quality -- I had to reduce it to get the jpg under 500 kb.

Thanks a bunch! Looks like there is a whole lot of space for those partisans, but looks might be deceiving? There is also some (but not a lot) room for blitzing

Oh, I miss this game sooo much...

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 19

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/25/2011 12:43:28 PM

Red Prince

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Here's a shot of the main Chinese front. It's from just after setting up Japan for a Missed the Bus scenario (not a terrific setup, but what can I say), at Zoom Level 2. Sorry about the image quality -- I had to reduce it to get the jpg under 500 kb.

Thanks a bunch! Looks like there is a whole lot of space for those partisans, but looks might be deceiving? There is also some (but not a lot) room for blitzing

Oh, I miss this game sooo much...

Regards,
Oscar

A few months ago I was running a test from the start of a Global War which was all related to conquest issues. Even without putting up a fight, it still took the Japanese the better part of a year to get into position to conquer China. China is:
BIG
and there are a lot of mountain hexes there. In the north, though, you could blitz the main rail line pretty deep into Chinese territory. You just have to really commit to taking China, because you'll need all three HQ's to keep in supply.

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Post #: 20

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/25/2011 7:55:13 PM

Centuur

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This is a really empty country indeed! Partisans paradise... And look at all those gaps in the frontlines! There isn't one at all! Even if the Chinese and Japanese did set up a little better, there are not enough units to prevent the Chinese from doing all kind of nasty things by trying to cut supply lines.
I think I just got a nasty feeling that says that conquest of China is going to be a very different thing in MWIF. It probably means killing the Communist first in 1939 going along the railway in the north and than slowly aim for the heartland around Chungking, since that is has the shortest way through the mountains. No fun in the south with those huge mountain ranges there... The problem is that as a Japanese you really have to invest in land forces to kill the Chinese army...
I wonder what playtesting will result here. Is China easier to conquer with those new cities and the larger map? Supply can easily be cut by Partisans... Terrible. Now from an historical point: this is probably the reason why the Japanese didn't conquer China...

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Peter

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Post #: 21

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/25/2011 8:09:35 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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You should look at the new roads we added in south central China. These reflect the fact that the rivers were important supply routes. So what we did was to add a road that 'parallels' a couple of the rivers. This alleviates supply problems to some degree. They can't be used for rail movement, but they can be used by HQs tracing supply via a "railway path".'

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 22

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/25/2011 9:23:43 PM

oscar72se

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

You should look at the new roads we added in south central China. These reflect the fact that the rivers were important supply routes. So what we did was to add a road that 'parallels' a couple of the rivers. This alleviates supply problems to some degree. They can't be used for rail movement, but they can be used by HQs tracing supply via a "railway path".'

I have never tried this map, but the way I see it the first priority for JA in the south should be to seize control of Changsha and Hengyang. These cities seem to be absolutely vital for the Chinese and have no nasty defense bonuses. If the Chinese lose control over these cities they would have no other option than to retreat from eastern China. A strong force striking at Changsha/Hengyang from the north, backed up by a smaller force from the south should do the trick.

After these goals are accomplished, it seems to be a loooong walk to Kweiyang... I wonder if the enlarged map enables the Japanese to simply walk around the Chinese in order to get across the rivers?

Anyway, it appears to be a totally different scenario in comparison with good old WiF

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 23

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/26/2011 1:42:07 AM

Extraneous

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This is the �Spain or Russia� thread.

Shouldn�t this be on the �How do you handle Barbarossa? And the Pacific War?� thread?

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Post #: 24

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/26/2011 2:00:06 AM

Red Prince

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

This is the �Spain or Russia� thread.

Shouldn�t this be on the �How do you handle Barbarossa? And the Pacific War?� thread?

Technically, yes, but it developed from a discussion of blitzing on the Russian steppes. It's hard to split a conversation between two threads. I'm probably to blame, since I posted the first screenshot of China. Sorry about that.

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Post #: 25

RE: Spain or Russia - 7/26/2011 9:20:00 PM

Centuur

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We can always say that the development of the Chinese Campaign is off course something which might decide the choice "Spain or Russia" for the Axis.

Everything in WiF tends to get together somewhere in decision making...

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Peter

(in reply to Red Prince)

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RE: Spain or Russia - 7/27/2011 1:07:45 AM

Red Prince

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The greatest Theory of Everything that I've ever met . . . or is this Universal (battle)Field Theory?

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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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RE: Spain or Russia - 8/4/2011 8:44:39 PM

Red Prince

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Here's a shot of the main Chinese front. It's from just after setting up Japan for a Missed the Bus scenario (not a terrific setup, but what can I say), at Zoom Level 2. Sorry about the image quality -- I had to reduce it to get the jpg under 500 kb.

Yes, this is still in the wrong forum, but I want to keep these together. I remember there was some interest as to what could be done, given this setup. Well, here's how things look at the end of the S/O '40 turn (2nd turn):

Attachment (1)

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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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(in reply to Red Prince)

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RE: Spain or Russia - 8/4/2011 9:05:28 PM

Centuur

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This is a really big and empty country... Bad weather is coming in the North, so the Chinese Communists should survive (provided some units will arrive as reinforcements...). I assume Mao is just off the northern board edge?

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Peter

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RE: Spain or Russia - 8/4/2011 9:13:12 PM

Red Prince

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Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

This is a really big and empty country... Bad weather is coming in the North, so the Chinese Communists should survive (provided some units will arrive as reinforcements...). I assume Mao is just off the northern board edge?

Yup, but looking at it now, I realize this is actually from in impulse before the turn ended. The Japanese have actually moved forward even more. The Communists will definitely survive, though.

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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Centuur)

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Spain or Russia