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Cost too much? - 7/18/2011 1:42:49 PM

Visery

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Is there a reason why this game cost so much? The graphics are terrible and the production value is a joke with static units that doesn't even have any animations what so ever! While I agree that gameplay is great, but this is game is a line by line remake of Panzer General. How hard can it be?

Come'on guys, $40 for this game is just greedy. If you're going to charge full price for a clone then at least bring the graphics up to date. That or release this game on Steam so Valve can put on sale for $10 or something.

Post #: 1

RE: Cost too much? - 7/18/2011 2:36:48 PM

Kensai

Posts: 81
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: Karlsruhe, Germany
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Progam it yourself then. Companies are no social club like my home country, if you don't want this game for that price: don't buy it. Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism

(in reply to Visery)

Post #: 2

RE: Cost too much? - 7/18/2011 2:58:05 PM

Lord Zimoa

Posts: 837
Joined: 10/10/2008
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Hi,

I understand where this idea comes from that small Indie developers, for some obscure reason are supposed to deliver good games at rock bottom prices. Therefore let me just give you some insight in this world:

We worked on this game with a team of 10 people for almost two years, working with ease weeks of 100+ hours without pay nor without upfront royalty payments. Invested easily five digit zero number in expenses and costs. We have to fight AAA games and publishers with budgets easily 20 times that of ours, with big publishers behind them spending millions on PR and Marketing. On average we sell in thousands, not tens of thousands in this niche market.

So we focus on quality, listening to feedback from our players, improve, try and make our games stable, as bug free as possible, fun and we are open. Proof is the pudding just read the reviews and reactions on the Matrix and Slitherine forums, on our websites, Facebook , people just love the game, they predict 100 hours of fun, see almost no bugs, things even many AAA titles lack last years. We used 800+ Beta-testers, really tried with them to make this a top game and I believe we managed well, as we do this with passion and out of joy in the first place.

We asked them what do you think, pure looking at this game, would be a fare price. About 22 % voted for 30 USD, 45% for 40 USD and amazing 19% even 50 USD or even more as they just loved the game so much. A publisher takes 50% or more, than Steam cuts another 30% if you go there, go to retail cut all through another 50% with the distributors, than come taxes, than minus invest. I assure you if we were selling at 15-20 USD, we just are forced to stop, period.

Yeah, but games from like e.g. Paradox are on Steam now for 20 dollar, yes they are, they are a few months or even years older, already sold in prime at top rates. And e.g. again Paradox is with their whole catalogue on Steam, they have dozens of titles, can afford a prize drop on a few games to gain PR for new upcoming titles.

We, and I talk for many of my brothers and sisters in the Indie Industry, are killed by it. So to answer your Q: we are offering this game at 24,99 GBP, VAT excluded, and that is far less than new AAA titles that come out new and are sometimes much worse and buggy products, just covered up by shrewd marketing.

We offer a good, quality product at a fair price and even than we are not sure if we make a profit. It is the best we can offer...

About the prices of games, it is amazing that in 2011 you still are able to pay the exact same price for a game as that you did in the 90`s. Nothing got cheaper, software, hardware, licences, taxes. Name me one industry were you paid 40 USD for a product in 1994 and still pay 40 USD in 2011!

Don`t get me wrong, it is most likely eventually we also drop prices, like with actions around X-mas or sales weeks, on actions with magazines, those who are registered at Slitherine and allow to receive the newsletter get vouchers with -25% on the catalogue or specific games like Panzer Corps on a regular basis.

And eventually over time, the price of this game will drop and we may even put it on Steam for a budget price. This is the life-path of every game.

But upon a new release, with so much investment on the line, and you offer a good, fun, stable game we just cannot afford offering our games direct at rock bottom prices. If we would drop to let us say 20 USD, we would need at least a 66% increase in sales to break even, that is a gamble we cannot take as a smaller Indie with no reserves. We need at least a minimum of prime sales first. On top we know that 70% of our potential revenue is also lost because of piracy and we can do nothing against it.

But ok, let us agree to disagree on this matter, I just wanted to give you some insight.

Cheers,

Tim

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Post #: 3

RE: Cost too much? - 7/18/2011 3:28:46 PM

lparkh

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Excellent forthright reply. I hope the original poster understands. This market is a niche unfortunately compared to twitch games.

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Post #: 4

RE: Cost too much? - 7/18/2011 3:48:55 PM

ccsdc83

Posts: 138
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People in the millions pay $60 for 4-5 hour games like Call of Duty garbage and other ridiculous titles that are bug ridden with cheaters and $40 for a polished games like PC is to much? Sorry I thought my $40 was very well spent and the expense the little guy has to pay for making a game has already been explained above. Hell I would have paid $40 for the editor portion of the game. It keeps me up at night making custom maps

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Post #: 5

RE: Cost too much? - 7/18/2011 4:01:22 PM

duncan007

Posts: 61
Joined: 9/3/2010
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Price is too much only if lowering it brings more money to Matrix Games.
I guess that their expectations of sales based on the current price maximize their earnings.
It's an economic law based on supply and demand rule.

< Message edited by zeduncan -- 7/18/2011 4:03:22 PM >

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Post #: 6

RE: Cost too much? - 7/18/2011 4:50:05 PM

Greybriar

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Compared to the cost of some of Matrix's other games, I didn't feel that Panzer Corps is overpriced. More importantly I wanted a retail boxed game similar to Panzer General that would run on my Windows 7 PC and that didn't require a third party program to be installed to play.

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RE: Cost too much? - 7/18/2011 4:51:06 PM

vonRocko

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Plus the game runs smooth as silk. Not one glitch, no patches, needed. Not many games can match that.

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Post #: 8

RE: Cost too much? - 7/18/2011 5:19:59 PM

Horseman78

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Well worth the money IMO

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Post #: 9

RE: Cost too much? - 7/18/2011 5:37:23 PM

LarryP

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From: Carson City, NV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Visery

Is there a reason why this game cost so much? The graphics are terrible and the production value is a joke with static units that doesn't even have any animations what so ever! While I agree that gameplay is great, but this is game is a line by line remake of Panzer General. How hard can it be?

Come'on guys, $40 for this game is just greedy. If you're going to charge full price for a clone then at least bring the graphics up to date. That or release this game on Steam so Valve can put on sale for $10 or something.

Looks like you need to go back to Steam.

(in reply to Visery)

Post #: 10

RE: Cost too much? - 7/18/2011 5:54:19 PM

Jestre

Posts: 180
Joined: 8/8/2006
From: Rhode Island
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Visery

Is there a reason why this game cost so much? The graphics are terrible and the production value is a joke with static units that doesn't even have any animations what so ever! While I agree that gameplay is great, but this is game is a line by line remake of Panzer General. How hard can it be?

Come'on guys, $40 for this game is just greedy. If you're going to charge full price for a clone then at least bring the graphics up to date. That or release this game on Steam so Valve can put on sale for $10 or something.

Sounds like you need to plunk down your $60 for another Call of Duty or Halo console game.... Enjoy... Matrix games are one of the last places to get a real "thinking man's" game. Those "graphics" and "production values" you like have virtually ruined the mainstream strategy game industry.

(in reply to Visery)

Post #: 11

RE: Cost too much? - 7/18/2011 5:55:59 PM

VPaulus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP
Looks like you need to go back to Steam.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jestre
Sounds like you need to plunk down your $60 for another Call of Duty or Halo console game.... Enjoy... Matrix games are one of the last places to get a real "thinking man's" game. Those "graphics" and "production values" you like have virtually ruined the mainstream strategy game industry.

So true.

< Message edited by VPaulus -- 7/18/2011 5:57:17 PM >

(in reply to LarryP)

Post #: 12

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 4:29:29 AM

Razz1

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^ Ha ha..

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Post #: 13

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 4:53:09 AM

jomni

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In my opinion, this game has the most polish in a wargame to date.

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RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 5:31:57 AM

jjoshua

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I have noticed after that great explanation of making a pc game, the original poster hasn't returned. I think he more than likely was "Suppressed" by a 'Strategic Bombardment'.

Like was said above...don't like the price, don't buy the game. Seems simple to me.

: < )

(in reply to jomni)

Post #: 15

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 5:49:08 AM

parusski

Posts: 4804
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Visery

Is there a reason why this game cost so much? The graphics are terrible and the production value is a joke with static units that doesn't even have any animations what so ever! While I agree that gameplay is great, but this is game is a line by line remake of Panzer General. How hard can it be?

Come'on guys, $40 for this game is just greedy. If you're going to charge full price for a clone then at least bring the graphics up to date. That or release this game on Steam so Valve can put on sale for $10 or something.

While beta testing I suggested the game should be priced at $99.00. GREED? A privately owned company has the right to make a profit. If you do not want to contribute to the brilliant capitalist system, the who cares.

Ahh, to heck with you.

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(in reply to Visery)

Post #: 16

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 6:25:34 AM

Hex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Visery
The graphics are terrible and the production value is a joke with static units that doesn't even have any animations what so ever!

This game has one of the best graphics in this genre! Name me 3 WWII turn based hex games that look better.

The production value is a joke? Shame on you!

For a game developed by such a small team with such a small budget, it's extremely polished!

Let me sum it up for you:
- one of the best graphics in this genre, period!
- rock solid stable and we have all the players to back this up!
- installation is flawless!
- very well thought out interface and I say this as a someone who has been a programmer for many years
- excellent help in the game, helpful tutorial, plus extensive tutorials in the game
- a multi-player that simply works!
- a very well designed AI
- hundreds of units
- wonderful library
- extensive beta testing has resulted in very few bugs! (I don't think players even found a bug yet).
- very userfriendly for people new to this genre (like me!)
- excellent editor and also one that isn�t buggy!
- easy to mod
- lots of replay value

Production value is a whole lot more than just pretty animations and graphics.
As for animations; this is basically a board game, like chess is. Certain games should be kept simple, it gives a game class. I refuse for example to play chess with anything but Staunton and the original wooden board and when I play on the computer, I don't want play with a silly animated chess program like Battlechess, I want to play with Fritz or Deep Shredder.

The lack of animations in this game is not unique, it�s very common in the WWII hex turn based genre, for the same reason that 99% of the chess games don�t look like Battlechess. Unlike most other genres out there, this genre is focused on a deep strategy and you also seem to forget that this is not the extremely popular FPS genre, but a hex turn based genre that is quite a niche.

< Message edited by Hex -- 7/19/2011 6:33:01 AM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 7:31:02 AM

IainMcNeil

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The sad reality is that people are used to paying low prices for games so the wider market just don't expect to pay $40 for something that they think looks like a web game. I can understand it to some extent because they don't know the difference. I don;t know what the solution is. Maybe we could cut the game in half and sell the first half of the campaign for $19.99 and then get them to pay $19.99 for the other half. They are far more likely to buy things in small chunks but many of them.

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Post #: 18

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 7:43:41 AM

JP Falcon the 2nd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

In my opinion, this game has the most polish in a wargame to date.

I don't know about that...I think there were more Poles in PG2.....

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Post #: 19

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 8:18:02 AM

Dragoon.

Posts: 175
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From: Rio Grande do Sul
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I find the price right and just. As a strategy game graphics are more a tool than say for a FPS were it's justificatory. Most important is game mechanics and overall game design. Strategy games specially round based one are today seen by many as hardcore games which appeals to a smaller audience, but then again the strategy developers have the luck of an older audience. I assume the average gamer age is around 28-36, which in most cases mean already settled in life with a job, regular and rather high income compared to teenagers and young adults. In that light 40$ isn't that much, less than 2 hours of work.

(in reply to JP Falcon the 2nd)

Post #: 20

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 8:33:12 AM

PirateJock

Posts: 465
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: North West, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Visery
Is there a reason why this game cost so much? The graphics are terrible and the production value is a joke with static units that doesn't even have any animations what so ever! While I agree that gameplay is great, but this is game is a line by line remake of Panzer General. How hard can it be?

Come'on guys, $40 for this game is just greedy. If you're going to charge full price for a clone then at least bring the graphics up to date. That or release this game on Steam so Valve can put on sale for $10 or something.

Cracking first post ... looking forward, and must admit a little scared, to see the second!

Cheers

(in reply to Visery)

Post #: 21

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 8:46:52 AM

animaluk

Posts: 100
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As someone who as been charged twice for this game i feel that Matrix being a special case {i have been a big fan for years] are charging correctly i trust them not to get greedy. and after all if we dont like the price then dont buy their games.Keep up the great work long may you go on making fine games

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Post #: 22

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 10:56:32 AM

fuelli

Posts: 233
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From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PirateJock

quote:

ORIGINAL: Visery
Is there a reason why this game cost so much? The graphics are terrible and the production value is a joke with static units that doesn't even have any animations what so ever! While I agree that gameplay is great, but this is game is a line by line remake of Panzer General. How hard can it be?

Come'on guys, $40 for this game is just greedy. If you're going to charge full price for a clone then at least bring the graphics up to date. That or release this game on Steam so Valve can put on sale for $10 or something.

Cracking first post ... looking forward, and must admit a little scared, to see the second!

Cheers

I don�t think there will ever be a second post. By judging the priorities of the initial poster (obviously graphics and animations) and the reactions he got I would guess he already realised that he his not the target group for matrix games. No need to argue further. The game is great and the price is A-OK.

< Message edited by fuelli -- 7/19/2011 10:57:21 AM >

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Post #: 23

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 11:10:31 AM

Marc von Martial

Posts: 10875
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fuelli
I don�t think there will ever be a second post. By judging the priorities of the initial poster (obviously graphics and animations) and the reactions he got I would guess he already realised that he his not the target group for matrix games. No need to argue further. The game is great and the price is A-OK.

Typical hit and run posters, They pop up with every release. The "know it alls" of gaming forums. Good thing is that compared to other game / publishers forums we do not have that many of them

I just hope he did feel better after posting it.

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RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 12:50:47 PM

berndn

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The price was OK for me. While the graphics are nice done I would have preferred some things like turning tanks with 45� sprites so the sprite could face all hexs. But on the other hand this games runs on my home PC as well as on my HP 6730b. So I'm happy with the sprites the way they are.

I have read some comments which describe PC and mention CIV 5. While I own CIV 5, I can only run it on my home PC because my notebook has no decent graphic card nor a good CPU. So like CC series I'm happy with those 2D sprites if it means I can use both my notebook and my home PC.

I believe that the price and amount of copies that will be sold is right but fear that not all development hours can be paid for it. Having programmed myself I know how much work is needed to get things done.

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Post #: 25

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 1:35:40 PM

JudgeDredd

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I've said before myself (I believe on the Battles of the Bulge forum) - and I think it's worth mentioning again - it's important the developers/publishers are aware of all reasons why a game hasn't been bought by someone.

You are not doing them any favours by looking at the price and saying "Sod that - I aint buying" and not letting them know. You most definitely should let the developer/publisher know what is stopping you buying it. Telling someone that if they don't like the price they don't have to buy it does nothing but get backs up. People who inform developers and publishers that a product costs too much already know they can or cannot buy it.

Everyone (as mentioned on many, many threads) has a price limit of no buy. Some people will see that price limit being ridiculously low. Generally those people know the company and what they can offer or they've played the game or they know the genre...and you should feel free to point that out to the poster - but he does already know he can buy it or walk away. All he's doing is letting the people responsible know that the product is not priced right for him. If the company goes on to sell 1000 units when they were expecting 10000 and there are complaints on the forums about the cost then they know why they fell short on sales. If no-one complains about the price and they sell a 1000 instead of the 10000 - they have no idea why that is.

Having said that, there are ways to do such things and the OPs post was asking for the responses he got.

But just remember that just because you think the price point is right doesn't make it so for others and doesn't mean people shouldn't mention that they aren't happy with the price.

I am fully aware that I've been guilty of such things in the past...what can I say - I'm a little bit older now

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RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 2:50:37 PM

IainMcNeil

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It is valuable information - knowing there are more people who would buy the game at a lower price is good. I think we need to be careful not to ridcule those people and encourage them to engage with us rather than run away. Obviously we have to price it at the level that gets the best overall revenue so the team can keep doing this but nobody would be happier than us if this price point turned out to be a lower one. Sadly there is no way to know so we have to use educated guesses!

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Post #: 27

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 4:44:24 PM

Knavery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I've said before myself (I believe on the Battles of the Bulge forum) - and I think it's worth mentioning again - it's important the developers/publishers are aware of all reasons why a game hasn't been bought by someone.

You are not doing them any favours by looking at the price and saying "Sod that - I aint buying" and not letting them know. You most definitely should let the developer/publisher know what is stopping you buying it. Telling someone that if they don't like the price they don't have to buy it does nothing but get backs up. People who inform developers and publishers that a product costs too much already know they can or cannot buy it.

Everyone (as mentioned on many, many threads) has a price limit of no buy. Some people will see that price limit being ridiculously low. Generally those people know the company and what they can offer or they've played the game or they know the genre...and you should feel free to point that out to the poster - but he does already know he can buy it or walk away. All he's doing is letting the people responsible know that the product is not priced right for him. If the company goes on to sell 1000 units when they were expecting 10000 and there are complaints on the forums about the cost then they know why they fell short on sales. If no-one complains about the price and they sell a 1000 instead of the 10000 - they have no idea why that is.

Having said that, there are ways to do such things and the OPs post was asking for the responses he got.

But just remember that just because you think the price point is right doesn't make it so for others and doesn't mean people shouldn't mention that they aren't happy with the price.

I am fully aware that I've been guilty of such things in the past...what can I say - I'm a little bit older now

I agree with your post Judge, but only if the price point is above average. It's not in this case. The price is average when you compare what new games cost. The OP was rude and apparently gave about as much thought in constructing his post as it takes to play a game of CoD.

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Post #: 28

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 4:58:11 PM

Jestre

Posts: 180
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From: Rhode Island
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The OP talks about lack of graphics and production value so he is obviously used to games like CoD and Halo etc, they all cost $60 on release so his rant about the price tag is crap. PC cost 2/3rds that of new release console games and the graphics and production is every bit as good as the industry standard for these type games. Don't give that troll more credit than he is due.

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Post #: 29

RE: Cost too much? - 7/19/2011 7:25:51 PM

Tomus

Posts: 234
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From: UK
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IMO there is an accepted level for a new release game between �30-�40. Perhaps more for additional content/bumf in the packaging. Anything within that scope I will happily pay for a new release.

I worry when Matrix decides inflate a game's price such as BftB which went for �65 which is absurb and it drives people from the market. The cost of Panzer Corps is more than reasonable.

(in reply to Jestre)

Post #: 30