Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

HQs on rest

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> HQs on rest Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
HQs on rest - 7/25/2011 10:38:22 AM   
murphys35


Posts: 54
Joined: 1/4/2006
From: Prague, Czech Rep.
Status: offline
Hi! When HQ unit is in the rest mode, are HQ effects still active for units in its command perimeter or not?

_____________________________

'One hawk chases away many crows'

(313th (Czechoslovakian) RAF squadron motto)
Post #: 1
RE: HQs on rest - 7/25/2011 10:43:26 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: murphys35

Hi! When HQ unit is in the rest mode, are HQ effects still active for units in its command perimeter or not?


I think so. But why would you have HQ unit in rest mode? Rest/Training mode is most useful for combat units. It can be useful for HQ unit if it had been suffering lots of casualties or if you want to speed up preparation points for target.

Rest/Training mode mainly affect combat capability and engineering capability.



_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to murphys35)
Post #: 2
RE: HQs on rest - 7/25/2011 11:43:46 AM   
murphys35


Posts: 54
Joined: 1/4/2006
From: Prague, Czech Rep.
Status: offline
Thanks for quick reply! I have HQ with some disabled support squads (don´t know why, maybe they have a nice party at HQ last night ) so I want to speed up recovery and this came to my mind.

_____________________________

'One hawk chases away many crows'

(313th (Czechoslovakian) RAF squadron motto)

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 3
RE: HQs on rest - 7/27/2011 8:45:55 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline
I believe that once you get a unit, including HQs, up to 100% prepared you can then start drastically increasing its morale by putting it in the rest/training mode. Not sure if this is true, but others are invited to comment. You might be able to do the same (at a different rate) if the unit is in combat mode... again not sure... This is very important when it comes to the allied player in china... where morale is a very real issue.

(in reply to murphys35)
Post #: 4
RE: HQs on rest - 7/27/2011 8:57:12 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
Units in rest mode will improve their morale at a faster rate.

It is not a good idea to have LCUs, in contact with the enemy, in "rest" mode. In that situation, you should use "reserve" mode provided you are confident the other LCUs in the same hex in "combat" mode are capable of holding an enemy attack at less than 2:1 AV odds. Units in "reserve" mode will only participate in the defence if they pass a check when the odds are 2:1, hence at those odds you are not guaranteed the "reserve" units will assist the defence.

Alfred

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 5
RE: HQs on rest - 7/27/2011 9:11:09 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline
Thanks Alfred. That's what I thought. One thing I use "reserve" mode for is to NOT count a unit in the mix of calculations for odds that go into the final combat ratio count. I don't want their morale/experience to be used as a factor. For example if a few units have solid morale and high experience and one is very weak in one or both, I don't want to take a chance that this unit's numbers will be used in the overall equation OR if mixed together to bring an average number down. OR, do I have my thinking all wrong? Does the outcome depend upon the "best" unit, randomly picked of all available, or something else???? I've never really figured that out....

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 7/27/2011 9:14:06 PM >

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 6
RE: HQs on rest - 7/27/2011 10:01:03 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
Morale doesn't quite work in that manner.

Morale affects how well the unit will fight. A unit with poor morale may well not contribute anything or much to a fight. But a poor morale unit is not going to bring down the average combat effectiveness of the units in the frontline. It is just a question of aggregated results.

Let's say you have 3 divisions in the line, each with an unadjusted AV of 440 and all three in "combat" mode. Divisions A and B have morale 90, division C has morale of 10. In the resulting battle, with those figures the combat will be practically carried by divisions A and B and hence the unadjusted AV would be 880. In the event that division C also participates then it would add it's unadjusted AV of 440 to give you an aggregated total unadjusted AV of 1320.

The common mistake made by new players is to forget that what ultimately counts in the combat is the adjusted AV. The adjusted AV takes into account, (amongst many other factors such as supply, target preparation etc) the damage inflicted by the firepower of the enemy units. Hence, even if the unadjusted AV of both sides is 1:1, if one side has far superior firepower it can kill much more enemy devices than it loses itself and the final adjusted AV could become 2:1, sufficient for victory.

Morale plays a major part in determining whether an Allied unit which is forced to retreat, will actually retreat or surrender instead.

Alfred

edit: upon re-reading noticed I had left in fatigue figures which completely invalidated the argument. removed as they were not germane.

< Message edited by Alfred -- 7/29/2011 12:52:14 AM >

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 7
RE: HQs on rest - 7/28/2011 8:54:59 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline
Again thanks Alfred. In relation to your example, if divs A and B fight, does that mean they "passed" a moral test? In terms of a dice roll, does that mean the divs had a 90% chance of fighting? For div C, does it only have a 10% chance of fighting? You also elude to a concept that I had not considered, that there are degrees of commitment by a unit to a fight. You state a "poor unit may well not contribute anything (which I understand) or much to the fight." It is the last section ("or much..") I don't understand... does part of the LCU's AV count? If so, how is that determined (besides a morale test)??? I've not read anything about this in the manual. Thanks...

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 8
RE: HQs on rest - 7/28/2011 11:14:36 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Again thanks Alfred. In relation to your example, if divs A and B fight, does that mean they "passed" a moral test? In terms of a dice roll, does that mean the divs had a 90% chance of fighting? For div C, does it only have a 10% chance of fighting? You also elude to a concept that I had not considered, that there are degrees of commitment by a unit to a fight. You state a "poor unit may well not contribute anything (which I understand) or much to the fight." It is the last section ("or much..") I don't understand... does part of the LCU's AV count? If so, how is that determined (besides a morale test)??? I've not read anything about this in the manual. Thanks...


Read the second sentence in the first paragraph on page 197 of the manual. it doesn't give much detail re morale in combat but it is what it is. Also see s.8.2.1 of the manual.

You are putting too much emphasis on "morale" in your pre combat deliberations and I don't think I have really encouraged you to think along those lines.

Morale is a short hand way of depicting the quality of a unit. The better quality a unit is, the more effective it will perform in combat. Note that the level of disruption, fatigue, supply (the latter being one of the factors feeding into morale) affect the number of ready devices available for combat. The unadjusted AV is simply an aggregate of all the ready devices. Remember it is totally silent on the amount of firepower present and it is firepower which kills. Everything else is only a modifier, positive or negative, to raw aggregated data.

There isn't a "morale" check prior to combat but there is a "morale" check post combat when the issue of a possible retreat arises. How morale actually impact during the course of combat, in accordance with the statement on page 197, is something I don't ever recall the devs commenting on. As it would very much disclose the actual combat algorithm, i don't think you will ever get the information which you are clearly angling to receive.

Suffice to say that in praxis you will quickly note that units with poor morale invariable end up with a very reduced adjusted AV.

So as I said, to a very large degree it is about aggregates. If you had all three divisions in combat mode, they would all participate in the combat irrespective of their morale level. The point is that divisions A and B would be much more effective in combat and have a much bigger role in shaping the final adjusted AV outcome than would division C.

Basically what I have been saying is that your initial concern that because of its poor morale, division C would dilute the overall combat effectiveness of the defence and hence why you were placing it into "reserve" mode is not valid. It might not contribute much to the gunfight at the OK Coral, but it would nonethess bump up the aggregate combat firepower.

Having commented on your concerns, if you are confident your other units on the line will hold an enemy attack to less than 2:1 adjusted AV odds, you might feel it worthwhile to have a unit in "reserve" mode (but note the limits specified in s.8.2.1.1) to aid it in recovering morale. However if that situation applies you should consider rotating the unit out of the frontlines back to where it could be placed into "rest" mode.

Of course you may just dismiss this commentary as being totally wrong, as some around here are wont to do. Unfortunately standards around this place are poor too often notwithstanding the veneer of authoritativeness presented.

Alfred

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 9
RE: HQs on rest - 7/29/2011 12:43:20 AM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline
Dismiss your commentary? You must be joking! It is really helpful. I'm not trying to get the proprietary equation used by the developers, I'm only trying to phrase questions I'm not sure how to phrase. Plus I'm also a product of my environment (aren't we all that way?) in that I grew up with board game in the '60s (Tactics II by AH being my first introduction which gives you an indication) and in many of them, such as Squad Leader, you needed a morale check in order to participate in combat, so I guess I'm stuck in that era.... Thus I was treating morale in error, clearly. I get what you are saying... Thanks again..... Hal

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 10
RE: HQs on rest - 7/29/2011 12:55:38 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
dr.hal,

Just re read my post #7 and realised I had not corrected the fatigue figures (they should have been in reverse). Have edited them out as they were not central to the main line argument. Apology for any confusion it might have created.

Alfred

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 11
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> HQs on rest Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.469