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StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART

 
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StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/27/2011 1:52:25 PM   
Zerstorer


Posts: 19
Joined: 7/18/2011
Status: offline 		Just a minor observation while playing the Gustav Line scenario - the StuG IV is mistakenly displayed (icon) and listed (purchase screen) as an artillery unit instead of an AT. (it was a StuG III superstructure on a Pz IV chassis - cheaper substitue for the JgPz IV).

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/27/2011 2:16:32 PM   
Rudankort


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zerstorer

Just a minor observation while playing the Gustav Line scenario - the StuG IV is mistakenly displayed (icon) and listed (purchase screen) as an artillery unit instead of an AT. (it was a StuG III superstructure on a Pz IV chassis - cheaper substitue for the JgPz IV).


StuG IV is a multipurpose unit which can be switched between arty and AT role. I guess the decision to place it in arty class was made because of upgrade path reasons.

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/27/2011 5:48:59 PM   
homunculus88

 

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Status: offline 		Well, that´s interesting. The only unit I knew of, that could switch was the 88mm Flak. Could you give a list, which units are "switchable"?

Also, it´s not quite clear why the StuG IV is singled out as a switchable unit. Because, as the OP said, it´s not much different of a StuG IIIG or StuG IIIF/8.

Be that as it may, "switch" is an interesting mechanic.

And, as it can´t be said often enough: GREAT GAME!!!

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/27/2011 6:47:51 PM   
Dragoon.


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Status: offline 		I thought it was a typo. I mean StuGIII variants existed in mass including StuH42 with an 105mm howitzer but except for a prototype I never read about a StugIV equipped with a howitzer. There were some issue with the prototype as well and it would been too time consuming to fix elevation problems. Even the 88 variant was only a prototype. Mass production only saw it equipped with an 75mm gun and using 75mm HE rounds as arty support in 1944? Comes up a bit short on TNT or?


< Message edited by Dragoon -- 7/27/2011 6:48:21 PM >

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/27/2011 8:13:24 PM   
Zerstorer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudankort

StuG IV is a multipurpose unit which can be switched between arty and AT role. I guess the decision to place it in arty class was made because of upgrade path reasons.



While the Germans certainly used many types of equipment in multiple roles, the StuG IV was equiped with the 75mm PaK 39 L/48 (or the 75mm StuK 40 L/48 - which were ballistically the same) and was used almost exclusively in the AT role... it was designed to be a less expensive version of the JgPz IV (another AT unit). Both the JgPz IV and StuG IV use the same weapon and AT ammo. The game is depicting it as if it was similar to the StuH 42 - infantry support unit (ART) equiped with 105mm L/28 howitzer with HE rounds.

Hopefully the StuG IV will be re-classified as an AT unit.

By the way, the addition of an equipment upgrade path is another nice edition to the game system.

< Message edited by Zerstorer -- 7/27/2011 8:47:20 PM >

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/27/2011 8:56:23 PM   
misesfan

 

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Status: offline 		That would change the campaign a bit since the southern wing in the Low Countries scenario is given a non-core Stug as Artillery support.


< Message edited by pwieland -- 7/27/2011 8:57:00 PM >

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/27/2011 9:13:48 PM   
James Ward

 

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Status: offline 		I've notice the Russian SU 76's are also artillery. That doesn't seem right either. I thought they were the Russian tank destroyers.

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/27/2011 10:30:32 PM   
homunculus88

 

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Status: offline 		IIRC the assault gun in the Low Countries is a StuG IIIA with a short 75mm L/24 gun. This type was in reality used as an infantry support weapon and not a tank hunter. So it´s ok to be in the artillery class.

< Message edited by homunculus88 -- 7/27/2011 10:31:18 PM >

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/28/2011 12:09:42 AM   
Dragoon.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

I've notice the Russian SU 76's are also artillery. That doesn't seem right either. I thought they were the Russian tank destroyers.


It's somewhat funny if you think that after Stalingrad they converted captured StuGIII and designated them SU-76i. :) However despite the name similarity had no connection with SU-76 Russian SP-gun. Except maybe to inspire the Russians to build their own series of SP-guns.

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/28/2011 12:35:04 AM   
Zerstorer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

I've notice the Russian SU 76's are also artillery. That doesn't seem right either. I thought they were the Russian tank destroyers.


I haven't had time to play out all the campaigns yet, but you are correct the SU-76 was an AT unit -a 76.2mm mounted on a T-70 chassis- (called the "Suka" or "bitch"... it wasn't very popular with its crews).

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/28/2011 3:03:57 AM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

I've notice the Russian SU 76's are also artillery. That doesn't seem right either. I thought they were the Russian tank destroyers.


SU76 is multipupose. It is mainly an infantry support gun. But it can also deal with tanks since it carries APCR rounds. The gun can be elevated very high and do indirect fire unlike real tank destroyers.

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/28/2011 5:35:46 AM   
Zerstorer


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Status: offline 		Agree, the SU-76 might be a very good example of a multi-purpose unit. Although its indirect fire capability wasn't particularly effective (small explosive charge), its was a excellent infantry support vehicle. So game wise, it could be designated as either (or both) AT & ART with a limited range of 1 hex - representing it's common close support useage.

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/28/2011 5:51:47 PM   
misesfan

 

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Status: offline 		However ART class units have the unique ability to not be counterattacked when attacking. Should the Stug be given this ability?

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/28/2011 6:18:09 PM   
Zerstorer


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Status: offline 		I would divide the Sturmgeshutz assault guns into two classes according to their primary roles:

StuG III A/B (range 1) + StuH F/G (range 2) Artillery

StuG III F/F8/G + StuG IV = Antitank (no ranged attack)

< Message edited by Zerstorer -- 7/28/2011 6:21:02 PM >

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/28/2011 6:22:20 PM   
James Ward

 

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Status: offline 		Perhaps the SU 76 could be avaliable in both catagories with slightly modified stas to reflect the role.

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/29/2011 3:13:24 AM   
Razz1


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Status: offline 		SU 76 already has this function.

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/29/2011 4:21:07 AM   
James Ward

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

SU 76 already has this function.


Does the AI use it? Every time I encounter them they are artillery.

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RE: StuG IV should be AT unit vice ART - 7/30/2011 10:50:54 PM   
KerenskyLI


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Status: offline 		The AI does not know how to switch unit roles.

The AI will use units in both roles if the unit is pre-placed.  Bersaglieri and the Bear map has a SU-122 in AT and two SU-122 in ARTY form.


< Message edited by KerenskyLI -- 7/30/2011 10:51:05 PM >

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