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FOW - 7/29/2011 1:37:34 AM

wadortch

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Hello everyone.

I have played many games as the Axis and Soviets against the AI with FOW off because I think it just adds a significant amount of clicking time per turn.

I am playing my first game GC game as Axis against a human opponent and wonder whether folks believe FOW on or off conveys an advantage to either side in GC game.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 2:08:56 AM

Empire101

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Well, IMHO, FOW is an added layer of realism that is there if you want it. ( I always play with FOW ).
If you want that added zing ( and the occasional horrible suprise!! ), I would recommend FOW and to hell with a few more clicks

It makes you do your air recon, which stops the God like appraisal of enemy intentions that the STAVKA or OKH never had.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 2:13:07 AM

larryfulkerson

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I'm thinking that FOW adds an additional element of realism to games. I can even play against myself and occassionally surprise myself even. I realize that's not saying much.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 2:15:20 AM

Michael T

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No FOW will give a very large advantage to the strategic attacker.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 2:52:35 AM

56ajax

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I believe if playing against the AI, no FOW is the recommendation, as the AI needs all the help it can get...

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 3:25:04 AM

wadortch

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From: Darrington, WA, USA
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Do you think this balances out in a GC game?

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 3:59:10 AM

Michael T

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quote:

Do you think this balances out in a GC game?

If you mean because in the late war the Russians will be the attacker no I don't think it balances out. The Germans, if they know what they are doing will very well with no FOW in the 41 summer campaign. The effects would snowball thru to 42. I am assuming you mean in human v human play.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 7:32:59 AM

saintsup

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IMHO, the fog of war is not 'foggy' enough. It's almost impossible for german to obtain strategic surprise (crucial in 42 offensives). Any semy careful soviet player will click enough recon per turn to find your 4 panzer groups.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 7:42:06 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

I believe if playing against the AI, no FOW is the recommendation, as the AI needs all the help it can get...

Regardless of the setting, I don't believe that the AI suffers from FoW, it can always see everything.

I haven't played as German in a while, but playing as Sov with FoW can be pretty scary because your recon efforts are generally futile and it is hard to see what the German panzers are up to.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 7/29/2011 8:17:07 AM >

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 8:02:35 AM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: saintsup

IMHO, the fog of war is not 'foggy' enough. It's almost impossible for german to obtain strategic surprise (crucial in 42 offensives). Any semy careful soviet player will click enough recon per turn to find your 4 panzer groups.

Agree on that, and not just from a German perspective. The Germans were completely surprised on several occasions by Soviet offensives, operations Uranus and Bagration springs to mind, it is hard to see that happening in the game. I think units away from the front are too easy to spot.

Suggestion: Let players spend AP on "hiding" units. That would make them much harder to detect, maybe with some disadvantage like only letting them use half MP or so.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 8:19:10 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Suggestion: Let players spend AP on "hiding" units. That would make them much harder to detect, maybe with some disadvantage like only letting them use half MP or so.

I don't think we should have to spend AP on this; any unit which uses 1/3 or 1/4 of its MP (to simulate only moving at night) should be much harder to spot, especially in non-open terrain.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 9:14:22 AM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Suggestion: Let players spend AP on "hiding" units. That would make them much harder to detect, maybe with some disadvantage like only letting them use half MP or so.

I don't think we should have to spend AP on this; any unit which uses 1/3 or 1/4 of its MP (to simulate only moving at night) should be much harder to spot, especially in non-open terrain.

Fair point! I agree.

But the hiding thing, I was thinking of elaborate maskirovka stuff, going to great lengths to hide things and having false radio nets, dummy tanks and guns etc in the wrong places. Such elaborate measures could be effective, but should surely have some kind of cost.

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41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
42Ger
42Sov

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 9:40:32 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
But the hiding thing, I was thinking of elaborate maskirovka stuff, going to great lengths to hide things and having false radio nets, dummy tanks and guns etc in the wrong places. Such elaborate measures could be effective, but should surely have some kind of cost.

But that seems like an entirely different thing--not hiding existing armies, but creating dummy armies. That would be an interesting twist and these efforts could cost AP.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 9:49:52 AM

Tarhunnas

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One thing that is really unrealistic and tips the German off on a Soviet offensive is the ease with which air recon can identify Guards units. I think guards units should only be identified as such very rarely if they are not in the frontline.

Edit: Possibly the same with SS units. They are not as much of a telltale, as they are rarer, but still.

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 7/29/2011 9:50:53 AM >

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Read my AAR:s ye mighty, and despair!
41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
42Ger
42Sov

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 10:44:27 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

One thing that is really unrealistic and tips the German off on a Soviet offensive is the ease with which air recon can identify Guards units. I think guards units should only be identified as such very rarely if they are not in the frontline.

Edit: Possibly the same with SS units. They are not as much of a telltale, as they are rarer, but still.

another good point, although I guess SS units might be easier to pick out than guards units via air recon because of their distinctive uniforms and the fact that they typically had better equipment?

< Message edited by 76mm -- 7/29/2011 10:55:01 AM >

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 1:33:19 PM

Flaviusx

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The game gives too much information for both sides, probably. It's very difficult to pull off deception at the strategic level given air recon. If it were up to me, I'd tone air recon downwards a fair bit.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 1:37:15 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

I believe if playing against the AI, no FOW is the recommendation, as the AI needs all the help it can get...

Regardless of the setting, I don't believe that the AI suffers from FoW, it can always see everything.

I haven't played as German in a while, but playing as Sov with FoW can be pretty scary because your recon efforts are generally futile and it is hard to see what the German panzers are up to.

This is only true in 1941. From 42 onwards, even the Soviet can spam the whole front with air recon missions.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 4:16:39 PM

davetheroad

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FOW? what FOW?

even i don't mind flying hundreds of recce missions!

apparently there were situations where air recce could not effectively get through the fighter screen!

Make maskirovka etc more effective by having the recce identify a number of units that are not there at all. Or even allow the player to place a number of 'dummy' units

which guards tank army is the real one!

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 4:35:28 PM

JAMiAM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: davetheroad

FOW? what FOW?

even i don't mind flying hundreds of recce missions!

Me too, as those who've played against me will attest...

quote:

ORIGINAL: davetheroad
apparently there were situations where air recce could not effectively get through the fighter screen!

I will, however, admit that there probably should be a bit more attrition against the recon planes - both from flak, as well as fighter screens.

quote:

ORIGINAL: davetheroad

Make maskirovka etc more effective by having the recce identify a number of units that are not there at all. Or even allow the player to place a number of 'dummy' units

I know it will send Flavio into a hissing fit (

), but that is a good reason for the Soviets to keep around a couple dozen Rifle and Tank Brigades. This way, you can pile them up with some worthless HQs at some point close behind the lines and keep the Axis guessing which is the real reserve force massing for the attack, or prepared to defend against a breakthrough.

I agree with others about the ability to spot icon colors - giving away nationality, or Guards status. At the least, it should require a higher Det Level than is currently required.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 5:50:45 PM

carnifex

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FOW has been a minor complaint of mine as well. I do believe recon is a bit too effective - the Germans never suffer a shortage of recon planes and like Flavius mentioned, the USSR has plenty from 1942 on. The recon attrition is negligible - I never ever worry about conserving my recon planes so I just keep clicking and clicking until my wrist hurts.

Also, recon NEVER results in a false positive. I either find nothing, or find a real unit. My pilots never come back with exciting tales of fictitious formations.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 5:57:29 PM

kvolk

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I think distance from the front should be more of a governor for unit recognition. I know it is lvl 4 for max ID right now but I think it should be even less with distance flown. maybe just a generic colored square is all.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 6:07:48 PM

FredSanford3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

One thing that is really unrealistic and tips the German off on a Soviet offensive is the ease with which air recon can identify Guards units. I think guards units should only be identified as such very rarely if they are not in the frontline.

Edit: Possibly the same with SS units. They are not as much of a telltale, as they are rarer, but still.

another good point, although I guess SS units might be easier to pick out than guards units via air recon because of their distinctive uniforms and the fact that they typically had better equipment?

I doubt that in most cases they had the ability to discern that level of detail. Heck, I think it'd be hard in many cases to determine nationality, let alone service. Just look at all the friendly fire incidents on all sides. The Germans tied flags on the top of their vehicles just for that reason, and that was by no means foolproof.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 10:08:59 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

I doubt that in most cases they had the ability to discern that level of detail. Heck, I think it'd be hard in many cases to determine nationality, let alone service. Just look at all the friendly fire incidents on all sides....

Are you talking about WWII Friendly Fire incidents or Modern Day ( Iraq, etc. )? In WWII artillery spotters is the closest thing they had to a modern day FAC pilot and they didn't use their arty spotters as if they were FAC-ing so they tended to fly higher than a dedicated FAC pilot would today. I'm told that FAC pilots in their OV-1's in Vietnam could indeed pickout NVA from VC from friendly units. Pickout meaning could tell which was which. And instead of tying flags on the top of the vehicle our guys used smoke grenades and the radio a LOT in 'Nam. But I do have to admit that the FAC pilots that were due to rotate back to the real world soon tended to fly a LOT higher than they did at the beginning of their year tour.

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RE: FOW - 7/29/2011 10:26:55 PM

Jakerson

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Soviet side cannot attack same pace than German side this is reason why there is no possible to suprice German side. Soviet side can only advance 1 or max 2 hexes per turn while on the offensive even when they penetrate defences this makes Soviet offensives always last multiple turns and there is plenty of time German to react.

It is very hard to encircle large amounth of German units while playing Soviet side but if they are lucky they isolate one German units here and there and Germans cannot break encirclement.

Soviet offensive is not same as German offensive.

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RE: FOW - 7/30/2011 8:03:07 AM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

Soviet side cannot attack same pace than German side this is reason why there is no possible to suprice German side. Soviet side can only advance 1 or max 2 hexes per turn while on the offensive even when they penetrate defences this makes Soviet offensives always last multiple turns and there is plenty of time German to react.

It is very hard to encircle large amounth of German units while playing Soviet side but if they are lucky they isolate one German units here and there and Germans cannot break encirclement.

Soviet offensive is not same as German offensive.

The Soviets are perfectly capable of surrounding large numbers of Germans from 42 onwards, though it is more difficult for them than the Germans, Soviet mobile formations tend to have somewhat lower MPs and lower morale, and Soviet mobile formations are more brittle, and thus more susceptible to counterattacks.

_____________________________

Read my AAR:s ye mighty, and despair!
41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
42Ger
42Sov

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RE: FOW - 7/30/2011 2:50:38 PM

FredSanford3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

I doubt that in most cases they had the ability to discern that level of detail. Heck, I think it'd be hard in many cases to determine nationality, let alone service. Just look at all the friendly fire incidents on all sides....

Are you talking about WWII Friendly Fire incidents or Modern Day ( Iraq, etc. )? In WWII artillery spotters is the closest thing they had to a modern day FAC pilot and they didn't use their arty spotters as if they were FAC-ing so they tended to fly higher than a dedicated FAC pilot would today. I'm told that FAC pilots in their OV-1's in Vietnam could indeed pickout NVA from VC from friendly units. Pickout meaning could tell which was which. And instead of tying flags on the top of the vehicle our guys used smoke grenades and the radio a LOT in 'Nam. But I do have to admit that the FAC pilots that were due to rotate back to the real world soon tended to fly a LOT higher than they did at the beginning of their year tour.

I'm talking about WW2 friendly fire.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)

Post #: 26