el cid again
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Joined: 10/10/2005 Status: offline
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Thank you for an insight into the thinking here. The account below, from an article on the Japanese invasion of Thailand, indicates that the Japanese were modestly successful only at this one location "brushing aside" units in regimental strength. This also may be the location Col Tsuji records talking Thai Provincial Police - who were NOT brushed aside but were holding up landing ops - talked them down (see Japan's Greatest Victory, Britain's Greatest Defeat). It is indeed a game limitation that ground combat only occurs once per day - I would prefer once per 12 hour impulse in this system. Nevertheless, I must conclude that it is more ahistorical to let Japan start with a defended position as an operational one - with zero risk that things might turn out as they did at EVERY other landing point. I decided it was better modeling to create an Allied RTA that exists for a single day, and that Japan must engage. I was able to model the details of each force, not only in size, but in moral and leadership terms, such that USUALLY (but not totally predictably) Japan "brushes aside" the force at Sonkhla (Singora) - and USUALLY fails to take the other landing sites (sometimes it does get one). My RTA allied with the Allies then vanishes at the dawn of the next day - and Japan then is free to take the positions it didn't secure the previous one - but indeed it usually "owns" Singora and may use operationally its unit there. The issue here is dictated first of all by game resolution: we simply do not resolve ground matters more than once per 24 hours. It ought not be permitted to know you are going to get the base risk free. It ought not to be permitted that you can know you are going to get air cover over the base on day one - UNLESS you arrange for that by a knowable way. Like historical Japan, I don't like to commit a carrier to that - so I usually fly air cover day one out of Indochina - with zeros - which is easily done. Even if I did not think Japan should have to "brush aside" opposing units on the first day - and not be able to use the bases as if they owned them - and the road/rail net - I would still think the aircraft should not be operational at the start of the turn. It seems to me they could not have been - the war with all but China begins here - before P.H. is attacked real time Japanese troops are moving to land - and actually go ashore (at Kota Bahru I think) somewhat prematurely. Surely these pre dawn landings were not covered - nor were the morning operations in game scale terms. It is, however, probably reasonable to embark these Sentai's on landing ships and, if you want, risk their landing with the assault troops. It also might be reasonable to have this location defined as Axis to start. I have done that at Parachap Kheri Kahn - for technical reasons to insure RTA units on the Axis side are able to appear in a game with computer controlled Japanese. It does not seem to make any difference to the fact the Japanese were not successful in landing there on the first day - most of the time. If the location is defined as Japanese, the RTA units will resist the landing. Give em bad leaders and low morale, the IJA will almost always force them to retreat. If you landed air units with the troops, they will then be able to use the base. If you transfer in fighters by flying - they also can fly air support on the first day - although possibly not get much support if any are damaged - which if so is also reasonable. Actually - I like that idea - and I will experiment redefining the location as Axis. I think Thailand should mostly start as an Allied location - even if undefended - so Japan does not get its resources or their free movement using the road/rail net (which is broken into segments by non friendly locations). The RTA also should not appear as an axis force until about 21 or 22 December - when an alliance is agreed to - one that includes RTA units invading Northern Malaya - NE Burma - and reoccupying parts of Cambodia - most of these places being places where colonial powers had encroached on Thai territory (although not mostly places where the population liked the idea of Thai rule). The idea of an RTA - which did not exist in WITP stock - was mine. But I never indended Thailand to be a Japanese country on the first day - and the Thai forces were surprisingly effective in resisting. See below: Before 8 December 1941Royal Thai Army started to set up the new military units in the South including: [4] Chumphon the 38th Infantry Battalion stationed at Ban Na Nian, Tambon Wang Mai, Muang District of Chumphon (9 km from Provincial Hall) Nakhon Si Thammarat the 39th Infantry Battalion stationed at Tambon Pak Phoon, Muang District of Nakhon Si Thammarat the 15th Artillery Battalion stationed at Tambon Pak Phoon, Muang District of Nakhon Si Thammarat Headquarter of the Sixth Division at Tambon Pak Phoon, Muang District of Nakhon Si Thammarat Trang the 40th Infantry Battalion Songkla the 5th Infantry Battalion stationed at Tambon Khao Kho Hong, Hat Yai District of Songkla, transferred from Bang Sue to Hat Yai by military train on 18 February 1940 - the first Unit that move to the South the 41st Infantry Battalion stationed at Suan Tun, Tambon Khao Roob Chang, Muang District of Songkla the 13th Artillery Battalion stationed at Suan Tun, Tambon Khao Roob Chang, Muang District of Songkla Pattani the 42nd Infantry Battalion stationed at Tambon Bo Thong, Nong Jik District of Pattani [edit] BattambangAt dawn the Imperial Guards Division, spearheading the 15th Army, crossed the border into Thailand's recently reclaimed Battambang Province at Tambon Savay Donkeo, Athuek Thewadej District (Russei) of Battambang. The Japanese encountered no resistance, and from Sisophon swung north-westwards into Aranyaprathet (then still a district of Prachinburi Province) along the nearly finished railway link between Aranyaprathet and Monkhol Bourei. (the actual opening date for traffic was 11 April 1942) [5] [6] [edit] ChumphonThe Japanese 1st Infantry Battalion of the 143rd Infantry Regiment landed at Chumphon on the morning of December 8. They managed to form a perimeter around their landing areas, but were pinned down by determined resistance by Thai Youth Army (the 52nd Youth Army Training Unit, Sriyaphai School) along with the 38th Infantry Battalion and Provincial Police of Chumpon. Fighting ended in the afternoon when the Thais received orders to cease fire. Thai Forces has lost Captain Thawin Niyomsen (the 52nd Youth Army Training Unit - posthumously promoted to Lt. Col.), a few provincial police and a few civilians. [7] [edit] Nakhon Si ThammaratNakhon Si Thammarat was the site of the Thai Sixth Army Division’s Headquarters and 39th Infantry Battalion. Three Japanese troopships dropped anchor a few kilometres off the coast during the night of December 7. The ships carried the 3rd Infantry Battalion of the 143rd Infantry Regiment, the 18th Air District Regiment along with an army air force signals unit, the 32nd Anti-Aircraft Battalion, and the 6th Labour Construction Company. Shortly after midnight, they began disembarking their troops at Tha Phae canal (AKA Pak Phoon Canal) - North of Camp Vajiravudh. The landing was made adjacent to the main Thai army camp, Camp Vajiravudh. The Thais, notified earlier of the Japanese invasion at Songkhla, immediately went into action. The battle lasted until midday, when the prime minister’s orders for a cease fire were received. [8] [edit] PattaniDue to its closeness to the Malayan border, Pattani was the second most important objective of the Japanese 25th Army. The landings were made despite the rough seas and on unsuitable landing grounds. The invaders were effectively opposed by the Thai 42nd Infantry Battalion, Pattani Provincial Police and Thai Youth Army units (the 66th Youth Army Training Unit from Benjama Rachoothit School) until the battalion was ordered to cease fire at midday. The Thai battalion commander, Khun Inkhayutboriharn, was killed in action along with 23 other ranks, 5 Provincial Police, 4 Youth Army members and 9 Civilians.[9] [edit] Prachuap Khiri KhanMain article: Battle of Prachuab Khirikhan Prachuap Khiri Khan was home to the Royal Thai Air Force’s Fifth Wing, under the command of Wing Commander M.L. Pravat Chumsai. The Japanese 2nd Infantry Battalion of the 143rd Infantry Regiment landed at 03:00 am, and occupied the town after having crushed police resistance there. Further landings took place near the airfield to the south. The Japanese laid siege to the airfield, but the Thai airmen along with Prachuap Khirikhan Provincial Police managed to hold out until noon on the next day, when they received orders from the Thai government to cease fighting. The Japanese lost 115 dead according to Japanese estimates and 217 dead and 300+ wounded according to Thai estimates. The Thais lost 18 dead and 27 wounded. [10] [edit] Samut PrakanThe Japanese 3rd Battalion of the Imperial Guards Regiment landed at Samut Prakan in the early hours of December 8. It was tasked with the capture of Bangkok. The force was met by a small Thai police detachment. Despite a tense confrontation, fighting did not occur and the Japanese subsequently agreed not to enter the Thai capital until formal negotiations were concluded. [11] [edit] SongkhlaThe port city of Songkhla was one of the main objectives of Yamashita’s 25th Army. The Japanese landings occurred during the early hours of December 8. Thai garrison at Khao Khor Hong (the 41st Infantry Battalion and the 13th Artillery battalion) immediately occupied positions alongside the roads leading down to Malaya, but were brushed aside into positions the main Japanese advance could ignore. A further clash occurred at Hat Yai. The Thais lost 15 dead (8 KIA from 41st Inf. Bat. and 7 from the 5th Inf. bat.) and 30-55 wounded. The fighting ceased at noon when orders for an armistice to be arranged was received. [12] [edit] Surat ThaniA Japanese infantry company from the 1st Battalion of the 143rd Infantry Regiment landed at the coastal village of Ban Don in the early hours of December 8. They marched into Surat Thani, where they were opposed by Royal Thai Police and civilian volunteers. The desultory fighting took place amid a rainstorm, and only ended in the afternoon when the hard-pressed Thais received orders to lay down their arms. The Thais lost 17-18 dead but the injured was not known exactly. [13] [edit] BangkokWhile police rounded up Japanese residents the Thai cabinet debated its options.[14] Some favoured continued resistance, including the establishment of a government-in-exile, but when Phibun finally returned they relented, and the Thai's caved in to Japan's demands. [edit] AftermathMain article: Japanese occupation of Thailand Plaek Pibulsonggram's decision to sign an armistice with Japan effectively ended Churchill's hopes of forging an alliance with Thailand. He also granted Japan permission to use Thailand as a base of operations to invade Malaya. Within hours after the armistice came into effect, squadrons of Japanese aircraft had flown into Songkla airfield from Indochina, allowing them to carry out air raids on strategic bases in Malaya and Singapore from a short distance. At the time of the ceasefire, Great Britain and the United States regarded Thailand as Japanese-occupied territory.[2] On 14 December, Pibulsonggram signed a secret agreement with the Japanese committing Thai troops in the Burma Campaign. An alliance between Thailand and Japan was formally signed on December 21, 1941. On January 25, 1942, the Thai government declared war on the United States and the United Kingdom. In response, all Thai assets in the United States were frozen by the federal government. While the Thai ambassador in London delivered the declaration of war to the British administration, Seni Pramoj, Thai ambassador to Washington D.C., refused to do so, instead organising a Free Thai movement.[2][15]
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