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NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 7:39:37 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		Gods sake please nerf these guys. Deliberate attack #1.






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< Message edited by Ketza -- 8/10/2011 7:40:29 PM >
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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 7:40:32 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		Deliberate attack # 2




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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 7:46:39 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		And whats waiting? Even more of them.

These security regiments are sucking my MPs dry. I was hasty attacking them but changed tactics to deliberate attacks to try and kill them off or rout them quicker. These are not isolated results either its happened in my game against Timmyab far to often and is actually impacting things on a macro scale.

Nothing wrong with Timmys use of them as they are in the game but this is ridiculous.




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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 7:59:51 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Gods sake please nerf these guys. Deliberate attack #1.




I TOTALLY agree They have driven me insane in the campaign against my brother

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 8:01:54 PM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		By spending time in army in real life I can say that. Border guards in most of countries witch these NKVD security units represent are specially trained for delaying enemy advance if country is surprise attacked. They are equipped and trained to blow up bridges, deploy mines and deploy snipers and guerilla warfare in short notice. Removing their ability for delaying would be step toward removing realism and historical use of border guards.    

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 8:10:26 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I love these guys. A lot of folks want to rush them off to the Finnish border or somesuch thing, but I use them for delaying tactics on the actual front.



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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 8:12:20 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline 		By spending time in army in real life I can say that. Border guards in most of countries witch these NKVD security units represent are specially trained for delaying enemy advance if country is surprise attacked. They are equipped and trained to blow up bridges, deploy mines and deploy snipers and guerilla warfare in short notice. Removing their ability for delaying would be step toward removing realism and historical use of border guards.

Well excuse me, if we are going to throw Army Service into the ring, I happened to serve for 8 years in the Army, and these so called 'border units' are nothing more than glorified secret policeman.
They are NKVD units, trained in interrogation, internal police duties, collecting information, 'encouraging' units to fight to the last man, and in the case of some units, just commiting cold blooded murder.

NKVD units were specialists in knocking on your door at 2am, and helping you disappear, if you were lucky, to Moscow to face a court martial. If you were'nt so lucky, you went for a walk in the nearest woods, never to be seen again. They were NOT specialist engineer/demolitions/partisan warfare experts.

< Message edited by Empire101 -- 8/10/2011 8:19:32 PM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 8:17:24 PM   
Flaviusx


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From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Border guards are, well, border guards. Beria wasn't sending these boys off to arrest and execute the enemies of the state, etc. He had actual nasty and evil secret police types for that.

The NKVD was a big organization doing many things, not all of which involved Lubyanka.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/10/2011 8:18:19 PM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 8:22:21 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Border guards are, well, border guards. Beria wasn't sending these boys off to arrest and execute the enemies of the state, etc. He had actual nasty and evil secret police types for that.

The NKVD was a big organization doing many things, not all of which involved Lubyanka.


You have a point....but they certainly were not specialist engineer units blowing bridges etc ( although I'm sure some did. ).
They were, as you so succinctly put it, just border guards, pure and simple.


< Message edited by Empire101 -- 8/10/2011 8:23:09 PM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 8:24:43 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1312
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Status: offline 		Be that as it may, in most games of this complexity, you just overrun the critters and be done.

Having no pursuit phase not only makes tanks ineffective but only makes this possible.

+1 for fixing this.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 8:26:05 PM   
Empire101


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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Be that as it may, in most games of this complexity, you just overrun the critters and be done.

Having no pursuit phase not only makes tanks ineffective but only makes this possible.

+1 for fixing this.


Excellent point


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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 8:26:20 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
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From: Columbia, Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

By spending time in army in real life I can say that. Border guards in most of countries witch these NKVD security units represent are specially trained for delaying enemy advance if country is surprise attacked. They are equipped and trained to blow up bridges, deploy mines and deploy snipers and guerilla warfare in short notice. Removing their ability for delaying would be step toward removing realism and historical use of border guards.    



So what your saying is a bunch of guys standing around in an open field with submachine guns, rifles, no artillery and no forts can stand up to determined deliberate attacks by 2 seperate 100% toe German infantry divisions over the course of a weeks time and remain a cohesive fighting unit...





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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 8:27:47 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Ketza


ORIGINAL: Jakerson

By spending time in army in real life I can say that. Border guards in most of countries witch these NKVD security units represent are specially trained for delaying enemy advance if country is surprise attacked. They are equipped and trained to blow up bridges, deploy mines and deploy snipers and guerilla warfare in short notice. Removing their ability for delaying would be step toward removing realism and historical use of border guards.


So what your saying is a bunch of guys standing around in an open field with submachine guns, rifles, no artillery and no forts can stand up to determined deliberate attacks by 2 seperate 100% toe German infantry divisions over the course of a weeks time and remain a cohesive fighting unit...



M'Lud, I rest my case.


+1 Ketza





< Message edited by Empire101 -- 8/10/2011 8:30:41 PM >

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Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh


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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 8:48:04 PM   
LiquidSky


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I find them fairly easy to dispose of. After the initial hit by a division, I will break down into three regiments and hit it with them (individually), since the security unit is very weak strength wise. Each loss lowers its morale until they finally go poof from loss of men, or rout.

The game doesnt seem to have an overwhelming odds threshold where the unit being attacked is overrun, so it is more efficient to hit it at around 10-1 odds then 200-1.

< Message edited by LiquidSky -- 8/10/2011 8:49:07 PM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 8:50:52 PM   
Q-Ball


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From: Chicago, Illinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


I find them fairly easy to dispose of. After the initial hit by a division, I will break down into three regiments and hit it with them (individually), since the security unit is very weak strength wise. Each loss lowers its morale until they finally go poof from loss of men, or rout.

The game doesnt seem to have an overwhelming odds threshold where the unit being attacked is overrun, so it is more efficient to hit it at around 10-1 odds then 200-1.


That tactic costs alot of MPs, as Regts pay big movement penalties in enemy territory.

NKVD Regts should not be holding up Germans divisions over and over

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 9:03:06 PM   
Jakerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza
So what your saying is a bunch of guys standing around in an open field with submachine guns, rifles, no artillery and no forts can stand up to determined deliberate attacks by 2 seperate 100% toe German infantry divisions over the course of a weeks time and remain a cohesive fighting unit...


It is perfectly possible to deploy troops in the way that it is hard to destroy them. Numbers dont tell the whole story. Sometimes larger side with tanks and artillery is totally decimated by side who barely have any.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tolvajarvi

4000 men attacking against 20 000 men supported with tanks and artillery.
Finns lost 350 casulties Soviet 10 000men and this battle happened in real life. Effects like this are hard to simulate in computer games and have balance but still it is perfectly possible hold even larger forces with small number of troops and without artillery or forts.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 9:16:45 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
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From: Columbia, Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza
So what your saying is a bunch of guys standing around in an open field with submachine guns, rifles, no artillery and no forts can stand up to determined deliberate attacks by 2 seperate 100% toe German infantry divisions over the course of a weeks time and remain a cohesive fighting unit...


It is perfectly possible to deploy troops in the way that it is hard to destroy them. Numbers dont tell the whole story. Sometimes larger side with tanks and artillery is totally decimated by side who barely have any.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tolvajarvi

4000 men attacking against 20 000 men supported with tanks and artillery.
Finns lost 350 casulties Soviet 10 000men and this battle happened in real life. Effects like this are hard to simulate in computer games and have balance but still it is perfectly possible hold even larger forces with small number of troops and without artillery or forts.


Tanks and unusable artillery in the middle of a frozen forest being hacked to pieces by ski troops is a much different situation then a bunch of border guards in the open. Your example is not even remotely close to what I am talking about. I really would not have an issue if the NKVD were in a swamp or heavy forest as I would give the defender a higher ability to slip away.

If you cannot see that this is an unreasonable outcome then there really is no way I can convince you otherwise.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 9:17:05 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1312
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline 		Speaking for myself, I'm not saying a freak event once in a while wouldn't be fun. But as a rule, always, hmmm...

I haven't checked the link, but wouldn't that be high quality fins, in highly forested terrain, on homeland against very poorly led and trained Russians?

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 9:17:55 PM   
Jakerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
That tactic costs alot of MPs, as Regts pay big movement penalties in enemy territory.

NKVD Regts should not be holding up Germans divisions over and over


Splitting divisions for Regiments have low utility in offence becouse of high penalty in MP use when moving enemy controlled hexes. Regiments cannot paint adjacent hexes either.

But regiments have their use in defence mostly it is good tactic if used right but I would not use them in offence.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 9:21:22 PM   
Jakerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Speaking for myself, I'm not saying a freak event once in a while wouldn't be fun. But as a rule, always, hmmm...

I haven't checked the link, but wouldn't that be high quality fins, in highly forested terrain, on homeland against very poorly led and trained Russians?


Finns weren’t professional soldiers either 95% of manpower in Finns army were civilian conscripts. Many finns didnt have even military equipment other than rifle. Many troops bring their own clothes and gear to war since there was not any in the military other to give than rifle.

< Message edited by Jakerson -- 8/10/2011 9:23:49 PM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 9:28:24 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		I like them
Actually they're about the only thing in my intire arsenal that are holding you up at all.Forget KV-1s, I want more NKVD supermen.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 9:36:12 PM   
Jakerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I like them
Actually they're about the only thing in my intire arsenal that are holding you up at all.Forget KV-1s, I want more NKVD supermen.


Sadly soviet cannot build more of these super units that stop German advance into steel wall but maybe tossing some Rifle brigades and tank brigades supported with AT brigades makes the same?

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 9:43:58 PM   
marcpennington

 

Posts: 335
Joined: 1/31/2011
Status: offline 		NKVD troops did tend to be better trained, more motivated, and much better armed (particularly with sub-machine guns) then the norm, in many ways pre-cursors of modern day special forces or airborne troops. But that said, my understanding is that the border guards were hardly these elite forces---- I don't have it in front of me, but Glantz's Stumbling Colossus is quite dismissive of their combat capabilities IIRC.

More to the point, I think these border regiments were withdrawn from the OOB fairly quickly (or were effectively destroyed.) Again, I don't have the volume in front of me, but I'm fairly certain there were no NKVD border guards regiments in the Battle of Smolensk per the OOBs in Glantz's Barbarossa Derailed, albeit to confuse matters one tier of the reserve armies were formed around NKVD cadres, though I don't think they kept the NKVD designation in their unit numbers.

In game terms, I would argue that the NKVD border guards might be a bit over-powered, and more to the point they last in the OOB for too long. But a lot of this might be tied to smaller units not taking casualties properly, as has been mentioned in another thread, and I believe is being worked on for the next beta.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 9:44:55 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
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From: Columbia, Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Speaking for myself, I'm not saying a freak event once in a while wouldn't be fun. But as a rule, always, hmmm...

I haven't checked the link, but wouldn't that be high quality fins, in highly forested terrain, on homeland against very poorly led and trained Russians?


Finns weren’t professional soldiers either 95% of manpower in Finns army were civilian conscripts. Many finns didnt have even military equipment other than rifle. Many troops bring their own clothes and gear to war since there was not any in the military other to give than rifle.


So what does that say about Soviet troops that faced them...

Maybe the Soviets should have invaded finland with an army of document wielding, dumpster burning commie NKVD regiments and they would have fared better.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 9:54:22 PM   
timmyab

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
Sadly soviet cannot build more of these super units that stop German advance into steel wall but maybe tossing some Rifle brigades and tank brigades supported with AT brigades makes the same?

I have noticed that AT brigades have similar properties.
I do think there's a lot about the combat system in general that needs rethinking and clarifying.Apparently strong units evaporate into dust for no discernible reason while one security regiment in open terrain can hold up an entire corps for days.


< Message edited by timmyab -- 8/10/2011 9:56:06 PM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 10:22:06 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
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Status: offline 		The term "hold up" is being used loosely here.  Those regiments aren't HOLDING their ground when attacked; they're retreating each time, with a bad casualty ratio.  They are delaying their attackers, not stopping them.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 10:27:35 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		The game needs an over run rule. Its that simple. I can't think of a good game (IMO) on the Eastern Front that didn't have one.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 10:36:24 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		I think the problem isn't that they can slow down, cause a division to deploy and plan an attack, but rather that a unit of 1000 men is still around after suffering 50% casualties in that fight. A heroic defense is one thing, and the MPs the attacker used represents that delay, but being able to fight 2-3 such devastating (to themselves) battles in a week's time seems a bit beyond the pale.

Units did not keep cohesion when they suffered so many losses so fast (as a general rule), NKVD motivation or otherwise.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 10:55:39 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		They tend to disband after such heavy losses. After a few turns used in this manner, most of them go away.

Honestly, guys, this entire issue seems like making a mountain out of a molehill. German players are doing quite nicely in 1941, and exceeding the real German army's accomplishments, notwithstanding the NKVD supermen.

I can't take these complaints seriously, unlike the maginot line 1942 stuff -- that's a genuine game balance issue, this is just German bellyaching.



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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/10/2011 11:11:48 PM   
sveint


Posts: 3556
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Status: offline 		Odds of over 100:1 should be an automatic rout or shatter.

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