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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> allied opening gambits and strategies

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allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/10/2011 9:43:10 PM

James Fennell

Posts: 135
Joined: 12/25/2010
From: Gloucestershire
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Although i have been playing the AI (DaBabes7) since November 10 - I'm up to July 42 and just landed in the Sols (hurrah!) - its time to try PBEM and am just starting first game as allied. Have lurked on the forums - they are fab - Cuttlefish AAR is splendorous. But now time to ask Annie. I'll keep the AI going to see what happens and learn about the game. Maybe get into an IJN PBEm too.

I'm sure this is asked endlessly and to be found elsewhere on many other threads - but some advice on allied opening gambits and strategies while I await turn 1 files?

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....gone to the dark side

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RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/10/2011 11:00:57 PM

pmath

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Joined: 2/19/2004
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Frankly, run for your life. Opening gambit probably doesn't apply. Trying to ambush a landing would be as close to gambit as you get early and even then you would have to be cautious.

(in reply to James Fennell)

Post #: 2

RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/11/2011 7:45:56 AM

jeffs

Posts: 644
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Tokyo
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I disagree...
If Scen 1, then running is first incredibly boring....secondly you can do a lot of damage, cut down the size of the
final Japanese perimeter a great deal (if scen 2...do run for the hills). Also..If scen 1 (and therefore somewhat historic some players would consider a total Sir Robin if not cheating then certainly against the spirit).

Make the Japanese cover every landing. If their covering force is no stronger than yours attack. (keeping with the understanding the KB is not covering...and be aware of where betty/nells have torps). Even if you lose more than him (and you get back way more ships than he does) the attrition starts in right away and most IJN players will then be forced to put much more cover on invasions (which will slow him down).

Basically.....If he attacks in force (covered with a strong covering fleet or the KB) get out of the way...If he is sloppy...Pounce.

Harass. Harass. Harass.

Build your string of bases from Aussi to PH....Pull back in China (you do not want to be caught in flat land)

As for actual strategams...Others have great ideas (Palemburg is the newest (and potentially most evil) allied focal point these days. Read other threads for info

_____________________________

To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

(in reply to pmath)

Post #: 3

RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/11/2011 12:26:25 PM

James Fennell

Posts: 135
Joined: 12/25/2010
From: Gloucestershire
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Thanks you both very helpful. I actually found a very good thread subsequently (although i've now lots it doh!)

One thing struck me. Since WiTP begins on 7th Dec, we tend to focus very much on the IJN initial strategy - but in real life there was years of thinking about this and planning for this, so changing it is a bit silly - and it worked a treat anyway. However the real crunch came in early '42 - go south or go Midway or go north. A sort of naval equivalent of the German dilemma in Russia of the same period. Would not a scenario beginning just before or after coral sea offer much more interesting and realistic strategic options than one beginning at PH? As it stands, to have a more historical game one really needs to play out moves much as they occurred in reality until the Spring of '42, when those options opened up and could have gone in any direction - for both sides.

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(in reply to jeffs)

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RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/14/2011 11:17:02 PM

Archangel85

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Joined: 3/15/2010
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I have managed a good Fortress Rabaul in a PBEM once, throwing two Aussie brigades + a couple Battalions on it ASAP. Literally start loading them on December 8th. Later managed to sneak through 16th and 34th (?) US Regiments plus two tank Battalions, which made for a hilarious suprise when 144th IJA Regiment came for a social call...not recommended though, keeping Rabaul supplied is very difficult and he CAN conentrate enough force on it eventually...I was lucky in that PBEM that "eventually" meant July 1942 (scenario 1), when the invasion force ran into the combined allied carrier fleet.

Fortress Java is also a favorite of mine, as is pulling out of Hong Kong to shore up defences at Clark Field (great defensive position, that). The later requires a bit of luck to pull off properly. Java should not be underestimated, as it holds a commanding position in the DEI - every major oil field is within heavy bomber range of either Batavia or Sorebaja, and Singapore can be shut down by air attacks from Batavia as well, making it useless as a fleet port unless Java is taken. It is a position he HAS to take, and you should make him pay for it.

As others have said, do not be afraid of aggressive action. The Myth of Early War Japanese Superiority is just that. Mini KB gets eaten by a combined allied carrier strike, and knocking out 3-4 (light) carriers makes it a net loss for him, no matter what he captures in the process. Japan isn't as strong in China as people might think it is, either.

As for grand strategy: I am of the opinion that CENTPAC offers very little to the Japanese. If he wants midway, great! He now owns an island in the middle of nowhere, which will eventually be reduced by naval forces and left to wither.

SOUTHPAC is another matter entirely, with an attack on Australia proper, the allied build up in that region can be delayed a good deal, allowing him to finish his defensive perimeter. NORTHPAC is a bit of a skirmish area: No JFB worth his sushi is going to land on the US proper, since that activates massive reinforcements. Worst case scenario is a retreat from the islands to the mainland, leaving them alone for the rest of the war.

One thing WITP lacks is perhaps a better representation of political pressure on the military to do or not do something. Perhaps in the form of missions that award extra PP/PP Penalties for losing important assets in some areas (there is literally no reason to defend Singapore).

(in reply to James Fennell)

Post #: 5

RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/15/2011 12:14:30 PM

spence

Posts: 5400
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From: Vancouver, Washington
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As a gambit, try to build Port Blair into a viable airbase and strong position.
Put a CD unit, some engineers (and engineer vehicles). some aviation support, some decent morale/experience infantry, a tactical air HQ (with torpedoes), some fighters (AVG comes to mind), some Vildebeests/Swordfish and lots of mines there. If the KB goes elsewhere the IJ Player will be hard put to supply an offensive in Burma (or will suffer intolerable attrition) and India will be pretty safe.

(in reply to Archangel85)

Post #: 6

RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/15/2011 2:53:21 PM

Crackaces

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The strategies mentioned are all very interesting.

A gambit is a chess term where the player purposefully sacrifices a piece, hopefully a pawn, to gain superior postion. Like the Queens Gambit to move the Black Queens pawn to the Bishop Row. Although no exchange takes place and only the loss of a pawn, the position of a black doubled pawn is extermely advantagious. The results of this gambit are not felt until many moves later.

I beleive the Allies have lots of opporunties to pull off a gambit with an overly agressive IJN player. Especially a player than believes the best defense is a good offense. I read in the AAR's many instances of the IJN player taking to the boats and invading where ever a place seems weak. A chance to conquor. If it is not a part of the original plan ... supply lines simply stretch further. WitP AE is a great game for a gambit because it takes sooooo damn long for anything to develop that a perceptively innocuous taking of some island turns slowly into a trap.

The best set of operational moves that might fit the defintion of a gambit that I have read thus far, is in GreyJoys "Gambit" in the Solomons'. Early on he offered "pieces" without an exchange drawing in IJN forces into a "CAP trap."

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 7

RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/15/2011 8:42:49 PM

John 3rd

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A crazy Allied Gambit is to FIGHT! As a JFB I know just how thin the margin is to keep the steamroller going. If the Allied player can fight every inch and get in a few punches it is something the Japanese cannot recover from. Look at CR's game with Chez. The Allies can replace everything and Japanese cannot.

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(in reply to Crackaces)

Post #: 8

RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/15/2011 9:08:17 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

A crazy Allied Gambit is to FIGHT! As a JFB I know just how thin the margin is to keep the steamroller going. If the Allied player can fight every inch and get in a few punches it is something the Japanese cannot recover from. Look at CR's game with Chez. The Allies can replace everything and Japanese cannot.

Although Canoerebel has ia great Allied strategy in motion, I am not sure it is a gambit. Keeping the chess analogy .. I would call it something akin to the "Kings Indian Defense" ... Black turning the tables and going on the offense on white. Simply Brillant!

A gambit might be GreyJoy offering some light ships up, suckering Radier's SCTF with some xAK's trading them for Radiers DD's, & CL's and then stomping him with a SCTF and Air ...:)

< Message edited by Crackaces -- 8/15/2011 9:09:53 PM >

(in reply to John 3rd)

Post #: 9

RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/15/2011 9:14:23 PM

crsutton

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Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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Yes, If I could start over and knowing what I do know, I would use my surface forces much more aggressively. DDs are hard to hit from the air and the game makes raiding easier and potentially much more deadlier than one would expect. The Allied player can afford to lose surface ships and you might get lucky and just ruin a key invasion. All ground units can be bought back and rebuilt now (coming in the patch) so I would not try to pull as many units out. Once again, the Allies can rebuild.

My only real mantra is to keep my carriers safe and intact. Does not mean I won't use them but I would not mess with an intact KB in 1942. Just too many ways to lose to them. But if you possess your carriers and keep him guessing as to where they are, then he really will have to limit his offensive moves to those he can support well. I think the biggest mistake any Allied player can make is to lose his carrier force early. It just benefits the enemy in spades.

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(in reply to John 3rd)

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RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/16/2011 2:04:22 AM

wpurdom

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Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Decatur, GA, USA
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my 2 cents

Scenario 1 - general advice

1. You can't afford a war of attrition in the air before mid-1943. That generally means you fight in the air by ambush or to support naval operations, or to weaken KB unless the environment is very favorable - interlocking bases, fighting over your own space, etc.

2. You can afford to fight a war of attrition at sea. Cut down on those IJN cruisers if you get a chance. AMbush a landing party if possible.

3. Husband your core assets for decisive results CVs, AP's, and AK's to a lesser extent. Don't engage a united KB except on very favorable terms after wearing it down through number of sorties, or massive LBA support.
Your CV's are great toys, but don't feel like you need to use them all the time. Just running them in an anticipated area will expose to attrition from Jap LBA and subs, and KB is always surprising people with how far it can run and strike.

4. You have tons of xAK's and xAP's and sufficient troops to run some risks with them. If you counterstrike, take or reinforce a group of bases away from KB and bring lots of engineers to where you can have interlokcing air bases. You can use masses of xAK's for invasions like Nemo or use them as diversions from the real effort like Canoerebel has done.

scenario 2 carefully commit your land forces to key areas to avoid auto victory - India. Australia, are both on the table here. Sir Robin except for opportunistic naval ambushes unless the ambushes show you that you have the measure of your opponent.

< Message edited by wpurdom -- 8/16/2011 2:05:31 AM >

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 11

RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/16/2011 10:34:19 AM

terje439

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At the start of the GC, putting the Catalinas in the Philliphines on naval attack might see some unescorted transports sunk, killing quite a few Japanese troops and forcing the Japanese player to escort his TFs properly.
If his TFs are properly escorted though, you will lose those Catalinas, so as soon as you start taking losses, stop this approach and save your Catalinas instead.
But I've used it to great effect quite a few times, but as I said, it only works untill the Japanese player learns to escort his TFs. But to me this is a bonus as well, as you force him to use more fuel as well as tying up surface vessels in convoy duties instead of having them run around causing mayhem on your own shipping.

Terje

_____________________________

"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

(in reply to wpurdom)

Post #: 12

RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/16/2011 3:17:58 PM

Cavalry Corp

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This very true and on turn 1 i lost about 4 ships to the Catalinas!!!!

(in reply to terje439)

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RE: allied opening gambits and strategies - 8/16/2011 11:20:57 PM

kaleun

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From: Colorado
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The Japanese offensive is time limited. I try to throw as many obstacles on his way as I can. A torpedo here, a successful raid there (see "Muddling along") and his advance gets tangled up, slowed down, while my transports bring supplies, engineers and troops.
I like to play like there are real people in the US that will vote and demand action of some kind. (Remember Doolittle's raid? It was a response to the people's demands that the US do something.)
Eventually, the evil empire will come up against a strong allied position and will either lose a lot of strength to take it, beyond what it can replace, or fail to take it. Then it is time to begin the long push back.

_____________________________

Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

(in reply to Cavalry Corp)

Post #: 14

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allied opening gambits and strategies