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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 12:00:32 AM

Michael T

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To deny there is a problem with ants in this game is putting your head in the sand. Even the Devs have acknowledged that small units don't take enough hurting when hit at high odds. Its not bellyaching at all. The OP has a legitimate gripe.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 8/11/2011 12:14:16 AM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 12:12:23 AM

Ketza

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Well it sorta depends on how they are used. Timmyab is doing a very good job of putting them where they tend to do the most good. The best I have seen any Soviet do so. As a matter of fact I never considered them a problem until now. It must go to his overall being very good at being a Soviet. I have spent countless hasty attacks on these regiments and then found that even with deliberate attacks they are a pain in the ass.

It may not seem a lot to lose 5-10 mps a turn with some of your units but the first 10 turns as Germany are their only time to make any signifigant impact on the entire course of the game so it is very frustrating to not maintain a timetable or lose grabbing an important hex because of the quirky nature of these units. Also it allows the Soviet to slow down an area without using higher quality units which can actually shatter with one combat. Its all very weird...

Myself as a Soviet never used them in this manner as I tended to think of them as I did when I played Fire in the East. They were crap ants that had no impact on the game.

Time to rethink them!

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 12:16:57 AM

KamilS

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I absolutely can't understand situation when NKVD regiment defending alone, against tanks in open terrain can't be annihilated at least 2 times out of 3. In one of my games, I repetitively attacked one unit 7 times during one turn and it still properly retreated each time.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 12:19:12 AM

Michael T

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Fire in the East, I am playing it right now. Same in EFS, OCS, HPS PzC, TOAW etc etc. Border troops evaporate as soon as the enemy crosses the border, no matter what nationality. I have chased these ants around and around in a pocket and they just won't give up.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 12:24:25 AM

Flaviusx

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If people really think that these NKVD units are costing them games, I just don't know what to say.

They are an annoyance. They also have a chance to disband automatically each turn after taking heavy losses in combat. All this seems to me to be working as intended. They are certainly not preventing Germans from taking Leningrad in seemingly every game, among other things.

So, yeah. My view is this: 1941 is working just fine and perhaps even a bit too well for the Axis. The game has issues later on, but this NKVD stuff is a giant nothingburger.

Here's a helpful hint: don't chase the silly buggers around all the way to the Volga. Shove them aside and bypass them.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/11/2011 12:27:46 AM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 12:46:40 AM

Michael T

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So your view is that no matter how idiotic a situation is, if it isn't a major flaw ignor it? Well even if it isn't a major problem in your view, it is part of a larger overall issue with the longevity of ants, not just NKVD super ants. And that is a major problem. Ants are a big part of the carpet defence. Ants with their unwarranted longevity and their zoc costs are a big problem.

Disclaimer: I play both sides, not just the Soviets or Germans.

Oh and BTW, these issues we see in WITE with ants is precisely why over run rules exist in other games. They solve the problem.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 8/11/2011 12:49:27 AM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 12:58:42 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Be that as it may, in most games of this complexity, you just overrun the critters and be done.

Having no pursuit phase not only makes tanks ineffective but only makes this possible.

You have 50 MP and want a pursuit phase as well?!

MOAR NKVD!

< Message edited by 76mm -- 8/11/2011 1:05:12 AM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 1:59:20 AM

PeeDeeAitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If people really think that these NKVD units are costing them games, I just don't know what to say.

They are an annoyance. They also have a chance to disband automatically each turn after taking heavy losses in combat. All this seems to me to be working as intended. They are certainly not preventing Germans from taking Leningrad in seemingly every game, among other things.

So, yeah. My view is this: 1941 is working just fine and perhaps even a bit too well for the Axis. The game has issues later on, but this NKVD stuff is a giant nothingburger.

Here's a helpful hint: don't chase the silly buggers around all the way to the Volga. Shove them aside and bypass them.

I think my basic problem is not the combats, per se, but rather that they do last attack after attack. While I understand the abstraction involved, it seems as if these units really do last far longer than they should. My own preference? See far shorter lasting units but more of them (grin), to represent blocking troops.

I do not argue that the 1941 Germans can do too much, but I would like to see the road in getting there seem more realistic.

Just my two cents.

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Post #: 38

RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 3:56:52 AM

Ketza

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If people really think that these NKVD units are costing them games, I just don't know what to say.

They are an annoyance. They also have a chance to disband automatically each turn after taking heavy losses in combat. All this seems to me to be working as intended. They are certainly not preventing Germans from taking Leningrad in seemingly every game, among other things.

So, yeah. My view is this: 1941 is working just fine and perhaps even a bit too well for the Axis. The game has issues later on, but this NKVD stuff is a giant nothingburger.

Here's a helpful hint: don't chase the silly buggers around all the way to the Volga. Shove them aside and bypass them.

Its not that these units are costing games its just that this is another issue that needs to be looked at. Its the cumulative effect of these seemingly minor issues that add up to bigger problems. You said yourself you rather enjoy these units. Why? Sell us on why they should be in the game doing what they are able to do.

The thing is in some cases you cant help but chase them around. They are an enemy unit that if bypassed can cause problems like flipping a hex back over or breaking a rail line.

I am not saying they need to just go poof. If I take the time to set up a deliberate attack with overwhelming odds the problem should be taken care of.

Its players pointing out issues like this that hopefully lead to fixing weird or broken mechanics.

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Post #: 39

RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 4:31:54 AM

Flaviusx

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What's the issue? How is this harming the game, exactly?

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 5:06:58 AM

Ketza

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I love these guys. A lot of folks want to rush them off to the Finnish border or somesuch thing, but I use them for delaying tactics on the actual front.

Why do you love them? I have already explained my position.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 5:08:38 AM

heliodorus04

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My take is that as the Soviet player, I've learned to appreciate how effective they can be in a limited set of parameters.
My take as the German player is that you can always count on them retreating in an annoying direction at the exact wrong time, and therefore, once you get them into a crappy geographic area, screen them so a high morale Soviet unit doesn't surprise you in how far it can move in ZOCs (they open pockets very well from the inside of them), and you don't get into an asymmetrical warfare situation where you're wasting MPs on a unit you know you'll beat every time, but rarely get a great operational result.

Where I agree with Flavius is that 1941 probably gives the German some consistent leverage such that they can always take Leningrad, and often take Moscow or the Donets. The Soviet is very tedious to play in 1941, because you have only a few usable cards in your hand to counter German initiative.

Bottom line for me is that the NKVD units make playing the Soviet side more fun and dynamic. Yes NKVD perform a-historically strongly, and probably unrealistically so. But damn to they give the Soviet the ability to use a foil, and especially in the first 10 turns, robbing them of this foil is to make the Soviet side too one-dimensional for me to enjoy playing in 1941.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 5:24:09 AM

Flaviusx

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I love them because they can delay the enemy for a bit.

But within a few turns they're mostly gone.

My sense is there is nothing we can do with these units that will please German players. There have been complaints about them when they get sent to man the Finnish border. Now folks are complaining about them being used to delay the Germans on the main front.

Short of getting rid of these guys altogether, I really don't see what you want to do. And that's exactly what I am getting out of this.

There's no play balance issue here.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/11/2011 5:25:11 AM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 5:32:00 AM

Ketza

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I love them because they can delay the enemy for a bit.

But within a few turns they're mostly gone.

My sense is there is nothing we can do with these units that will please German players. There have been complaints about them when they get sent to man the Finnish border. Now folks are complaining about them being used to delay the Germans on the main front.

Short of getting rid of these guys altogether, I really don't see what you want to do. And that's exactly what I am getting out of this.

There's no play balance issue here.

Make them border guards that rout or shatter when they get pummeled by overwhelming force. Kinda like a Rumanian infantry division when it gets hit by 100-1 odds and I will be happy not only as an Axis player but as a Soviet player as well.

Personally have never used them in such a fashion as I have found playing as a Soviet there are plenty enough wrenches to throw at an Axis player as it is.

Thanks for the discussion anyway it made the day more interesting.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 5:32:32 AM

Michael T

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

What's the issue? How is this harming the game, exactly?

I really hope the current testers/devs have a different view to your general take on stuff like this. Otherwise WITE and its offspring are going to have a plethora of irritating anomalies. I will leave it at that.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 5:37:55 AM

Flaviusx

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They will sometimes rout and shatter. And those that don't do either will frequently auto disband. If you throw them out there to screen the German advance, they rapidly disappear.

Do they annoy the enemy? Sure. But hardly more than that. I've yet to see a game wrecked by these alleged NKVD "super soldiers." This is hyberbole.

They're not going to seriously slow down a German who knows his business, they will make him work a bit harder to get to places. Which is fine.

Bottom line is the 1941 game is in a pretty good place right now. Leave well enough alone. There are bigger fish to fry.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 5:39:54 AM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

What's the issue? How is this harming the game, exactly?

I really hope the current testers/devs have a different view to your general take on stuff like this. Otherwise WITE and its offspring are going to have a plethora of irritating anomalies. I will leave it at that.

Most of us are far more concerned about dealing with forts, morale issues, mortars, and the 1942 maginot line problems.

In other words, real problems with game balance. The NKVD border forces aren't even on our radar screens.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 5:59:48 AM

Michael T

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Pavel has already acknowledged that small units are not taking enough losses at high odds. That is the issue. Not just NKVD units. Any ant at all. While maybe not a balance problem it is still a problem. The game is supposed to represent warfare on the Eastern Front in WWII. These NKVD units and their ramped up abilities are not consistant with that claim. Thankfully people like Pavel and other reasonable minds are in charge of programming.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 6:05:13 AM

Flaviusx

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Increases in losses for the NKVD units may accelerate their disband rate, sure. (And presumably their rout and shatter rate.) But tweaks in this direction won't prevent their use for delaying actions as long they actually exist as units on the map.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 6:25:01 AM

Michael T

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I don't think anyone has a problem with them being used the way they are per se. Its the fact that they have super powers of longevity when hit with overwhelming odds. If they died (whether rout, shatter or all kia) like they should when hit hard then no one would complain.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 8/11/2011 11:10:28 AM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 6:30:46 AM

Flaviusx

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Yeah, we'd be back to folks complaining about them being sent to the Finnish border!

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 6:32:04 AM

DorianGray

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

By spending time in army in real life I can say that. Border guards in most of countries witch these NKVD security units represent are specially trained for delaying enemy advance if country is surprise attacked. They are equipped and trained to blow up bridges, deploy mines and deploy snipers and guerilla warfare in short notice. Removing their ability for delaying would be step toward removing realism and historical use of border guards. � �

Whatever their training may have been, I can find no historical reference regarding to them being this effective on such a global scale in this theatre.

I think you are confused as to how historically effective they truly were. NKVD != Navy Seal OR Army Ranger

World War II operations

Prior to the German invasion, in order to accomplish its own goals, the NKVD was prepared to cooperate even with such organizations as the German Gestapo. In March 1940 representatives of the NKVD and the Gestapo met for one week in Zakopane, to coordinate the pacification of Poland; see Gestapo�NKVD Conferences. For its part, the Soviet Union delivered hundreds of German and Austrian Communists to the Gestapo, as unwanted foreigners, together with their documents. However, some NKVD units were later to fight the Wehrmacht, for example the 10th NKVD Rifle Division, which fought at the Battle of Stalingrad.

During World War II, NKVD units were used for rear area security, including stopping desertion. At the beginning of the war the NKVD formed 15 rifle divisions, which were eventually expanded to a total of 53 divisions and 28 brigades by 1945.[15] Though mainly intended for internal security, NKVD divisions were sometimes used in the front-lines, for example during the breakthrough in Crimea.[15] Unlike the Waffen-SS, the NKVD did not field any armored or mechanized units.[15]

In liberated territory the NKVD and (later) NKGB carried out mass arrests, deportations, and executions. The targets included both collaborators with Germany and non-Communist resistance movements such as the Polish Armia Krajowa. The NKVD also executed tens of thousands of Polish political prisoners in 1939�1941, inter alia committing Katy� massacre. NKVD units were also used to wage the prolonged partisan war in the Ukraine and the Baltics, which lasted until the early 1950

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 8:20:30 AM

Jakerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

They will sometimes rout and shatter. And those that don't do either will frequently auto disband. If you throw them out there to screen the German advance, they rapidly disappear.

Do they annoy the enemy? Sure. But hardly more than that. I've yet to see a game wrecked by these alleged NKVD "super soldiers." This is hyberbole.

They're not going to seriously slow down a German who knows his business, they will make him work a bit harder to get to places. Which is fine.

Bottom line is the 1941 game is in a pretty good place right now. Leave well enough alone. There are bigger fish to fry.

When I play German side at 1941 I hardly even notice NKVD units I just push them aside with hasty attack with one unit and move forward leaving NKVD units behind and cut them off from Soviet supply network. German can advance so fast in 41 that it is easy to isolate them deep behind the lines.

There is numerous evidence more than 20 AAR's where germans can do about historical 41 and in many cases better 41 progress than historically no matter how Soviet side use their NKVD sec regiments.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 10:40:23 AM

glvaca

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Be that as it may, in most games of this complexity, you just overrun the critters and be done.

Having no pursuit phase not only makes tanks ineffective but only makes this possible.

You have 50 MP and want a pursuit phase as well?!

MOAR NKVD!

Should have put that more clearly.
As ComradeP explained, there is no persuit element in a combat...believed to limit the effectiveness of tanks

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 1:06:03 PM

ComradeP

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Yes, the lack of a chase phase can make it annoying to attack ant units, but I personally feel that's much more of a problem when the swarm of brigades show up in late 1941 than in the first few turns. Generally speaking, you'll be attacking blocking units with infantry most of the time in 1941 so they rarely actually hinder your mobile units.

There are too few NKVD regiments to be more than an annoyance to me. The only times I hate them are when they turn invulnerable because their entire unit is disrupted or whatever it is that keeps tiny units alive activates, and I end up with a battle where I take 100 casualties and they take 0, but that's nothing more than a very minor annoyance.

Like Flavio said, the Wehrmacht's generally doing fine throughout (the summer of) 1941. After that, the problems start to appear. I'd disagree that they're doing too well by default, as something like the taking of Leningrad doesn't really give them much of a strategic advantage they can use in 1942, as instead of holding a line along the Volkhov with a semi-circle around Leningrad, they'll be holding a vertical line somewhere east of the Volkhov in most cases. As Finnish morale drops quickly when Finnish units are across the no attack line, the actual frontline you're holding might very well be longer than it was in real life with Leningrad in Soviet hands. Any advances from the above historical gains in the center and south can generally be contained by the Soviets with a carpet or deep defense. Due to the terrain to the east, capturing Moscow is also sort of a strategic dead end. It's nice to have, but it doesn't do more for you than cut Soviet manpower down a bit and give you a 3 hex fort in the central area of the map, as well as provide winter quarters in 1941.

At the top of my list of annoyances/problems with WitE are Axis casualties, attrition and the effectiveness of certain (groups of) elements, the NKVD ants are not on it, they are unworthy.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 1:46:26 PM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Yes, the lack of a chase phase can make it annoying to attack ant units, but I personally feel that's much more of a problem when the swarm of brigades show up in late 1941 than in the first few turns. Generally speaking, you'll be attacking blocking units with infantry most of the time in 1941 so they rarely actually hinder your mobile units.

I wonder if it would be possible that mobility and firepower of ground elements in successful attacking units has some impact on the level of attrition to defenders during retreat (or make chances of routing/shattering higher). That doesn't sound as a very complex change, and it's precisely this what the overrun mechanics we know and are used to, try to model (in an overly simplistic way).

Talking about missing game mechanics... a "surprise" mechanic very much like OCS, working only for hasty attacks, similar to the 1:1 rule (automatic shift depending on leader check and size of attacking force) would be much appreciated (at least by me).

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 2:58:25 PM

Klydon

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Yes, they are annoying and Russian players will now probably take a second look at improving their play with these units to make them more annoying. They are a smaller part of a larger issue with ants on both sides (imagine the outrage of a Russian that unloads 9 corps plus artillery on a Luftwaffe regiment only to have it take a limited amount of casualties because of the cap, so it works both ways).

I think overall, this is something to revisit in the future, but I absolutely agree the focus should be on 1942 and getting things "fixed" there so the campaign game flows better in most cases.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 3:14:12 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Yes, they are annoying and Russian players will now probably take a second look at improving their play with these units to make them more annoying. They are a smaller part of a larger issue with ants on both sides (imagine the outrage of a Russian that unloads 9 corps plus artillery on a Luftwaffe regiment only to have it take a limited amount of casualties because of the cap, so it works both ways).

I have never really worried about this from the Soviet end. I know how to wreck an ant defense by the Germans and even invite them to do this. All this does is give the Red Army a superb opportunity to grind the Werhmacht to powder.

The real problem for the Red Army is grinding through forts and breaking out into the open.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/11/2011 3:18:13 PM >

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 3:36:40 PM

Klydon

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I know. It is a different dynamic the other way as far as the Russians causing the Germans casualties, etc. It was meant as an example that there are some issues with the cap on casualties, despite the forces involved. I would think in such an attack the field regiment would simply cease to exist. It may not bother you, but I am sure it disturbs some Russians as to how they can attack with so much and yet the unit they attacked is still there.

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RE: NKVD supermen - 8/11/2011 3:42:13 PM

timmyab

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A couple more points about sec units.
Because you can keep them out in front during 41, they're ideally placed for reconverting hexes in front of Axis spearhead units, especially infantry.It's only 1 or 2 MPs usually but it's anoying for your Axis opponent and can occasionally make a big difference.
Because of their ZOC they can cover quite a lot of ground defensively, forcing the Axix player to either waste time going around them or whacking them.I think that taking away this ZOC advantage for smaller units would be one sensible way of solving the problem.

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