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RE: Pull back to the Volkov Line

 
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RE: Pull back to the Volkov Line - 7/6/2011 4:18:38 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
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From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Turn 114; Aug 19, 1943....clear

Well, as Q-Ball pointed out, it is time to pull off the Svir Line into the hinterland. Two of three Soviet attacks are successful - expensive, but successful. With the center of the line compromised, its time to pull back.

Whether or not the Kannas Army will halt its retreat here or pull back further depends on whether the Soviets continue to attack north.

My bet is no....




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RE: Pull back to the Volkov Line - 7/6/2011 4:29:30 AM   
IdahoNYer


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From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Soviet Steamroller of massed Guard Rifle Corps continue to sloooowwwly push toward Novgorod through very poor terrain. German infantry delay and pull back toward the Volkov Line as 8th Army begins forming along the Msta River. XXXXI PzKps establishes a mobile blocking position "just in case" Scar throws some currently unseen armor to exploit the attack.

Intent here is to pull back slowly, forcing the Soviets to fight in poor terrain as we pull back.





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Post #: 302
Orel or Kursk - 7/6/2011 4:53:48 AM   
IdahoNYer


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From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Here is where I'm a bit confused as to what the Soviets have going on. Instead of the massed offensive I expected - I'm getting fewer attacks from Orel to Kharkov. Nothing in fact south of Kursk. These few attacks against 2nd Pz Armee are contained - the massed Rifle Corps are next to impossible to defeat or especially counterattack - except if you are willing to accept very severe losses, even in success.

What to expect? I have no bloody idea......




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RE: Orel or Kursk - 7/6/2011 7:28:31 AM   
Fishbed

 

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Status: offline 		No plan for a sudden thrust to the East from the northern part of the Volkhov to do some damage in his rear around Tikhvin? Hit and run kind, of course. But whatever may force him to redeploy his massed rifle corps is one turn less for the meatgrinder. I think logistics is one of the weakest points of the Soviet deployment, and he can't afford to have his troops advancing with an endangered rear for long. From your recon the area seem void of troops, and even a small unit could devastate the rails here if these are already operational. As you said, it's about slowing him down. Defending in difficult terrain is good enough, but defending in difficult terrain AND forcing him to redeploy part of his troops is interesting too. As the troops facing the Kannas army will start to get a little too far to intervene efficiently in the same turn if he follows you up into Eastern Karelia, he will have to divert some steam from his operation in the Nebolchi/8th Army area.

You don't even need to push as far as Tikhvin. If you blow a hole across the Volkhov with strong-looking troops and you can still face him southwards without breaking up, he'll have to address this small problem by sending troops better used elsewhere.


< Message edited by Fishbed -- 7/6/2011 7:37:30 AM >

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RE: Orel or Kursk - 7/8/2011 2:00:03 AM   
IdahoNYer


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From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Fishbed.....

Sadly, any thought of a counterattack has become overcome by events.......

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Post #: 305
First crisis since the 41 blizzard! - 7/8/2011 3:15:53 AM   
IdahoNYer


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From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Turn 115; Aug 26, 1943.....clear

Soviets commit tank corps to the attack against AGN!!! This comes as a total surprise! Not good. Air recon completely failed to identify what appears to be a major striking force opposing 16th Army. This was thought to be a "quiet sector", and also a fairly secure one behind level 3 and 4 fortifications.

Apparently not so much. 2xTk Corps and 2xCav Corps exploit through the breach in 16th Army lines, linking up with Soviet forces attacking SW parallel to the Volkov Line and encirlce elements of 2xKorps totalling 6xIN Divs. This is not good.....

Fortunately, XXXXI PzKps recently arrived in the area from 9th Army. The priority will remain securing the Volkov Line, but, XXXXI PzKps should be able to punch through the two tank corps to extricate the trapped divisions. Doing so will severly weaken 8th Army's line towards Novgorod, but that can not be helped.

With some luck, we can pull out the infantry and re-form a line .




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RE: Orel or Kursk - 7/8/2011 3:16:18 AM   
Mynok


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Status: offline 		Don't mess with those rifle corps. They are death. Even level 4 trenches require multiple units to hold against them. If he brings the tubes en masse, you are still screwed. Welcome to 43.

Tank corps are quite vulnerable to counterattack. You should be able to open a line to your guys there. Be glad he didn't have mech corps.


< Message edited by Mynok -- 7/8/2011 3:17:10 AM >

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RE: First crisis since the 41 blizzard! - 7/8/2011 4:08:51 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		For the first time in the war, a German counter-attack falters. XXXXI PzKps (12Pz, 9Pz, 14PG) moved rapidly to the attack, and successfully pushed back the lead tank corps. Unfortunately, it withdrew back towards the second tank corps. Trying to preserve mobility, XXXXI PzKps continued its hasty attack southeast and was replused by the two tank corps. Some four attacks later, the Soviets still held the ground, and the Germans were not only short some 100 panzers, but had only managed a 10 mile corridor to the trapped infantry. Worse still, only the 14th PG could redeploy west, back in the line. Only one trapped infantry division managed to move into the corridor.

With the counterattack achieving only partial success, reinforcements head toward AGN from other parts of the front. First to arrive, and position as a backstop to 16th Army is the XXXIX PzKps from 3rd Pz Armee. Consisting of the 24th and 7th Pz Div, their first task is to prevent a collapse of the 16th Army front as they re-establish a line with 8th Army - evacuating some well fortified positions. About 6xIN divisions also arrive to bolster 16th and 8th Armies positions - these coming from "thinning" out the lines in primarily 9th and 3rd Pz Armee's areas. These areas are now dangerously "thinned", but there is little choice at the moment. 3xLuftwaffe Field Divs and a Sec Div arrive from partisan duties, but little is expected from them - but they will fill the line for the time being.

Still enroute from AGC and AGS are some powerful units: GD, 23Pz, 22Pz, 8Pz and 10PG. They are at least a week away. I'm reluctant to free up more units from the Orel-Kharkov areas as a large Soviet force is still sitting there, but I may have no other choice.

The Soviets have a golden opportunity here to exploit this success. As I was caught unawares, my lines are bending, but not quite broken yet. I see two choices for the Soviets. The small solution: Concentrate on destroying the exposed panzers and infantry. The large solution: Drive hard for the Valdai Hills to break open the front. He's got a good chance to do this right now, at least until the additional panzers arrive. This would compromise not only AGN's position east of the Valdai Hills, but also AGC's line just west of Moscow.

I'm hoping for the small solution!




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RE: First crisis since the 41 blizzard! - 7/8/2011 7:01:31 AM   
Mynok


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Status: offline 		Problem is he's going to have rifle corps in that hex next turn. You won't budge them.


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RE: First crisis since the 41 blizzard! - 7/8/2011 2:54:20 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		A good response, but as I was reading this, I couldn't help wondering why you didn't pull out of that salient.

Looking at the shot on post #302, that would have been the time to get out. It didn't serve a useful purpose, and was an obvious point to surround some Germans. There wasn't a reason to stay, and in fact several reasons to withdraw from it. You need shorter lines at this stage, not longer. I guess you didn't want to give up the forts, but he wasn't going to attack the tip of the salient anyway.

I think that was a mistake on your part, and you are likely to pay for it by getting a couple divisions destroyed.

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RE: First crisis since the 41 blizzard! - 7/11/2011 5:14:40 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		Can't argue with anything you said there Q-Ball - right on the money!

Why, you ask? Were those troops left in the salient? The forts? Partially...

The real reason, I was hoping to use that position as a springboard to launch a counterattack to cut off the forces pressing toward Novgorod. Two or so PzKps launched across the Volkov linking up with the infantry the salient would have put a real dent in the Soviet attack.

Of course, that assume no pressure on 16th Army...didn't quite turn out that way of course.

Sounds like a few of Hitler's "hold at all costs..." doesn't it? Korsun Pocket perhaps????

in any case........

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Crisis continues - 7/11/2011 5:58:11 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		Turn 116; Sep 2, 1943.....clear

Soviets continue to push steadily against 16th and 8th Army positions, but fail to really exploit their success, or fully pocket the 7 German divisions.

With the crisis heightening, Guderian assumes command of 16th Army! The reinforcing panzer divisions begin to arrive: 22Pz and GD arrive as part of XXXXVII PzKps, 8Pz goes to XXXIX PzKps and 10PG moves to 8th Army to hold the line toward Novgorod.

With no time to allow these incoming forces to deploy to counterattack, 8th Army's XXXXI PzKps and 16th Army's XXXIX PzKps attempt to maintain and widen the corridor to the infantry forces - XXXXI PzKps pushes back 2xTK Corps and XXXIX PzKps pushes back a Rifle Corps and a Tank Corps, but that's as far as they can go. Not enough for the infantry to pull out. XXXXI PzKps also remains vulnerable to being cut off.

To the western side of this action, 8th Army attempts to hold the Msta River line with whatever forces it can muster - these include a LW Field Div and 2xSec Divs - so things ARE getting desparate. Only 10PG and the fresh 321IN out of the 9 or so divisions holding positions to the west of XXXXI PzKps are considered capable for offensive operations, and barely able for defensive operations.

To the southeast of the relief attack, incoming panzer reinforcements take up positions to hold the line - instead of being able to participate in the attack, due to time constraints - and the need to bolster the line. II Corps pulls out of two fortified positions to shortent the line, and XXXXXVII PzKps begins arriving with its two lead divisions - Totenkopf being a few days being, still enroute via rail.

16th Army also begins constructing positions in the Valdai Hills, which is probably too little, too late.

18th Army's "Volkov Line" remains quiet, but with all reserves being moved toward the crisis further east, a heavy Soviet push to break the Volkov Line, would likely be successful. Althought the Volkov position is strong, it contains 3xLW Field Divs - not a good sign....





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RE: Crisis continues - 7/11/2011 6:12:18 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		Elsewhere along the front, quiet prevails. That doesn't mean the Soviets aren't busy, it just mean they aren't attacking. Recon pics up a buildup across from the quiet 9th Army - which had previously lost its mobile reserve, XXXI PzKps and a number of "extra" infantry divisions to the crisis to its north.

LVII PzKps from 3rd Pz Armee is transferred to 9th Army and rushed to the likely intended target area. Initially consisting of 20Pz and 18PG, it is reinforced by 2nd Army's 2nd Pz Div - the strongest Pz Div on the front with 240 panzers.

This move of course leaves 3rd Pz Armee a "panzer armee" in name only - no panzer divisions remain. Few if any reserves remain as well - those "extra" infantry divisions also have been moved north.

The real question is of course is not if the Soviets attack elsewhere, but when and where....

3rd Pz Armee is vulnerable. 9th Army is as well, but LVII PzKps helps. The remainder of AGC is stretched thin, especially 4th Army, but have good fortified positions, and in many areas, fortifications built up to the rear. XL PzKps (2xPz, 1xPG) remains with 2nd Pz Armee near Orel as a fire brigade - the only panzer formations left in AGC.

AGS remains very strong. Although I've pulled a number of panzer units north, quite a few remain, along with infantry in good positions. From Orel to south of Kharkov, the defenses remain the stongest on the front.

Still, we can't be strong everywhere. At this stage of the war, if the Soviets want something bad enough, they can mass overwhelming force to get it.

What I really need now is an early fall rain to bring the mud. Its now the Germans who need General Mud on their side!




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< Message edited by IdahoNYer -- 7/11/2011 6:16:29 AM >

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RE: Crisis continues - 7/11/2011 11:10:46 AM   
janh

 

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Status: offline 		Hmmh, hard to grasp the overall situation from your little maps.  Maybe this idea is utter nonsense, but my first instinct seeing the development in the north is rather not holding in strength around Borowitshi with all your armored formations, but to attempt a delaying action/fighting withdrawal with the infantry there.  Simultaneously I would keep the corridor to 8th Army's beak open and redeploy XXXIXth and XXXXVIIth Panzer Korps 50 miles to the SE, to Bologoje.  Looks like a few weaker soviet Rifle Divs (and nothing much in depth?) in place that could allow a concerted thrust in the direction of Kabozha, which would in turn threaten the Russian attack formations with an encirclement between the PzKps and 8th Army? And threatening his flanks might quickly take the steam out of his advance?


< Message edited by janh -- 7/11/2011 11:11:24 AM >

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Post #: 314
RE: Crisis Widens - 7/14/2011 5:59:35 AM   
IdahoNYer


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From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Turn 117; Sep 9, 1943.....still clear

Once again, I'm surprised. I figured that there would be no reason to pursue an attack north into Finnish territory. And Scar has done so - with vigor!

So, we pull back and hope for mud. Not much we can do at this point here, except pull back further into the interior. The terrain will help, but if he continues to push north, he'll be able to do so.

I'm NOT sending additional German troops up here....




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RE: Crisis Widens - 7/14/2011 6:28:09 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		The main event remains AGN - and it doesn't look good....

Soviets succeed in establishing their first real pocket - 6 German Infantry Divisions are pocketed - 1 manages to rout out. Four of the six are shells, but its still a heavy blow. I opt not to try a relief attempt - just not worth exposing other parts of the front for these battered divisions. Has been a good fight - the game system did a great job in conveying the "feel" of a pocket type battle - reminded me of the historical Korsun fight....

In any case, we attempt to establish a line along the Msta River. 8th Army's position is still very weak, and we'll have to fix that....

16th Army is facing the brunt of the Soviet Horde - for now, they can probably hold. I figure he's going to destroy the pocket before attacking - and the clock is ticking to mud. I really need General Mud to make his appearance about now...

My major concern is a breach of the Volkov Line. I've pulled 9th Pz Div out of 8th Army, which is badly in need of a refit after being pounded by the Rifle Corps attacks, to 18th Army reserve. My bet is he leaves the Volkov line alone until the bloody river freezes.....




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RE: Crisis Widens - 7/14/2011 6:39:55 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		As found by recon, the Soviets strike 9th Army north of Kalinin. Despite the level 4 fortifications, the defense fail to hold. Casualties are heavy for both sides, and the Soviets are unable to advance. But the fort line is broken. The good news is that LVII PzKps is in position to backstop the infantry along the river. Will see where he tries to push forward.

The real danger is south of Kalinin. From Kalinin to around Orel, there isn't really any sizeable reserve. 3rd Pz and 4th Armies have been gutted to plug holes elsewhere.




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RE: Crisis continues - 7/14/2011 7:01:09 AM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

Hmmh, hard to grasp the overall situation from your little maps. 


Yes. Great AAR, but it would be helpful with some maps on higher zoom levels showing a larger area to complement the smaller ones.

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RE: Crisis continues - 7/14/2011 4:43:57 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		I agree, great AAR, and would like a big map!

Why are you attempting to defend the Syamozero river line in Karelia? What is there to defend in back of it, trees? Plus they can get cut-off by a thrust against Suojarvi Lake.

At this point, I would pick-up all those fort zones, and build multiple lines along the north end of Lake Ladoga. There are several positions there you can hold with only 3 or 4 hexes, all of which are in good to great defensive terrain.

Don't wear your army out on a long line, that's my advice.

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RE: Crisis continues - 7/16/2011 5:12:22 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		Turn 118; Sep 16, 1943.......mud in the Central Soviet Sector!!!

General Mud makes his appearance! This should help.

AGN and the Finnish Kannas Army continue to take the bulk of the punishment along the front. 40,000 casualites are suffered as the 6 encircled infantry divisions capitulate - but not before repulsing two attacks!

18th Army's position on the Volkov line is fairly secure - at least until the Volkov freezes. 9th Pz Div, refitting, is the reserve.

8th Army's position is still precarious. Only two corps strong, one the weak XXXXI PzKps (1Pz,1PG) hold the northern approaches to the Valdai Hills, along the Msta River. Other than terrain, and hopefully a very tired Soviet Army after pushing to the Volkov, 8th Army's best chance is having General Mud arrive.

16th Army's position has significantly improved since the arrival of substantial panzer and infantry reinforcements. The goal here is to hold forward until the Valdai Hills fortifications are prepared. If I don't pull the panzers to other crises, that may be do-able.

9th Army just fell victim to the most recent Soviet onslaught. Backstopped by LVII PzKps, the Soviets pushed past a few fortified positions, but did not break through. Mud should bring this attack to a grinding halt.

Overall, AGN bent, but did not break. The loss of six divisions is a tough blow - a needless blow at that. They should have been pulled south, and out of the salient. I expect things to quiet down here until after the snow starts falling. Then I see two major attacks - south against 8th Army toward the Valdai Hills, then heading to the south of Lake Imen and the most serious is a major attack across a frozen Volkov River to re-take Leningrad.




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RE: Crisis continues - 7/16/2011 5:19:18 AM   
Ketza


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Status: offline 		I think your doing very well.

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RE: Crisis continues - 7/16/2011 5:42:04 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		AGC and AG "B" areas.

The green shaded area is the area of the front where General Mud has shown up - which should put a stiff break on where the Soviets chose to attack..

AGC:

3rd Pz Armee is a panzer armee in name only at this point. A quiet sector of the front since the attack on Moscow was abandoned in mid '42, I've stripped all the panzers from the army and sent them north - as well as most of the infantry reserves. So far, despite its proximity to Moscow, recon has detected no sign of any Soviet offense in this area.

4th Army's front is also a "quiet sector", which never really had much combat power to "strip".

2nd Army border's the former 2nd Pz Armee's area, and will encompass most of 2nd Pz Armee's formations now that 2nd Pz HQ has been withdrawn. 2nd Army's position is fairly strong, mostly infantry in fortifications, and backed up by the "Bryansk Line" about 50 miles to the rear. Despite continued Soviet attacks to seize Orel, Orel still is in German hands

AG B

6th Army continues to be pressured by Soviet attacks, but still retains Kursk and contains sufficient infantry and panzers to hold off all but the most determined Soviet attacks.

4th Pz Armee lost a few divisions to the crisis in the north, including Totenkopf, but still occupies good fortifications and holds the approaches to Belgorod and Kharkov.

2nd Hun Army supports 4th Pz Armee's positions around Kharkov, but does not currently hold a portion of the front.

Overall, AG B's position remains the strongest portion of the German line in Russia. Except for 2nd Army's right flank, AGC is extremely weak, with many of its best formations pulled up north to AGN.

With the mud, and hopefully it will last, I expect a lull to come over the front. I'll attempt to pull panzers off the line and into reserve positions and await the Soviet Winter offensive - which I bet will be aimed at securing Kharkov, Orel and Kursk.....only because that has been his focus the entire summer of 43.




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RE: Crisis continues - 7/16/2011 5:43:44 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		Thanks Ketza - I've enjoyed the summer of 43 "operations". Trying to hold off the horde has been fun.

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RE: Crisis continues - 7/16/2011 5:56:18 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		AG A to the Crimea has been exceptionally quiet.

17th Army has been reinforced by a PzKps on loan from 1st Pz Armee - thought the Soviets were going to broaden their attack towards Kharkov. Didn't happen, but I haven't pulled the PzKps back to 1st Pz Armee either. GD has been sent north however.

1st Pz Armee's position isn't exactly strong, but hasn't had any pressure against it either. XXXXI PzKps lost a Pz Div to the Crimea, which instead of returning, was sent to AGN.

However, 1st Pz Armee is backed up by the "Eastern Rampart" - level 3 forts along the Dneiper and down to the Sea of Azov. So far a major waste of manpower......but this is where I "thought" he'd attack during the summer....

The Crimea has been ably defended by the 4th Rum Army. So far, we've repulsed two amphib assaults and a number of attacks across the Kerch Strait. AND only 3x German IN Divs in support.

Overally, I hope this area of the front remains quiet - although I can't really afford to pull any additional forces from here.

So we wait for the next Soviet onslaught!




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The front line - 7/16/2011 5:59:27 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		And last, the front line on Sep 16, 1943




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RE: The front line - 7/16/2011 6:07:26 AM   
Mynok


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You definitely need to pull back from Moscow to Lake Ilmen.

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RE: The front line - 7/31/2011 2:58:04 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		Turn 121; Oct 7, 1943....clear

Back from vacation and on with the game!

Since the mud on turn 118, the Soviets have ceased operations along the main front, from Leningrad to the Sea of Azov. Despite, clear weather since! Very surprised at this turn of events, but greatly relieved as well.

Not only has he ceased offensive operations, but he has pulled his attacking forces off the line - air recon has picked up concentrations near Tula, Voronezh, and Kursk, but all along rail lines, well behind the front - moving elsewhere, or refitting is the question...

In any case, I welcome the respite as he could have pushed harder with the remaining clear weather. But, his forces were probably a bit worn down as well, and he's prepping for the winter offensive season.

I don't expect much once the mud hits - any turn now..... That should offer some respite and additional digging time for fallback positions.




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RE: The front line - 7/31/2011 3:06:29 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		The only area that Scar has kept the pressure on, is of course, where I didn't think he would...

Against the Finnish Kannas Army east of Lake Ladoga. Heavy pressure by Rifle Corps force me to abandon the Syamoero River Line to prevent those troops from potential isolation.

I need mud here to allow the fortifications to gain some progress.

The one thing I have learned from fighting these damn Rifle Corps stacks is that if he wants it bad enough, he can't be stopped. Delayed, maybe...but not stopped. Which brings up a very dangerous threat here if he continues to attack hard and turn the north side of Lake Ladoga - he could very well threaten Leningrad from the north!!

That would be ugly, very ugly....




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RE: The front line - 8/11/2011 2:33:21 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Status: offline 		Turn 127; Nov 18, 1943.....Snow in North and Central Sov, Mud in South Sov and Europe

Waiting for the Grand Soviet Winter Offensive Continues....

Front quiet....too quiet as they say. Air Recon has picked up a decrease in forces against AGN and the approaches to Leningrad which is surprising. Concentrations appear near Moscow - which could be clutter or an offensive aimed at 3rd Pz Ar. Also Soviet concentrations in the South Sov Zone against 17th Army.

For now, I'm standing pat where I'm at. At least until the Soviet Horde is unleashed. I'm reluctant to pull panzers out of AGN, where recon right now says will be quiet - if I do and I'm wrong, Leningrad as well as AGC's northern flank will be very vulnerable.






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RE: The front line - 8/11/2011 6:29:36 PM   
Q-Ball


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Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		You are in great shape so far in terms of territory, especially if you can keep him off the Dnepr until Spring. If he has to spend mid-1944 getting accross that, you'll be in even better shape!

If you are pressed, you can certainly afford to give ground between Lake Ilmen, and Bryansk. In fact, just retreating is preferable to being attacked. If you can stay off the Dnepr until Spring, you can concentrate forces on the Land Bridge, and hold him off at the River.

You are planning a 1944 fallback in the south along the Dnepr (nice job), but where is that in the north?

I think you have to plan a similar line along the Dnepr, through the critical landbridge area, then either along the Daugvina, or north through swampy/rough terrain to Lake Ilmen. Or both!

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(in reply to IdahoNYer)
Post #: 330
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