Quick player survey axis during first winter

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Quick player survey axis during first winter - 8/18/2011 12:29:22 AM

jzardos

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Joined: 3/15/2011
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I'm just curious which players out there are under the impression that well dug in German units (non-mnt for sake) can hold the line in that first winter of (Dec41-Feb42)?

For me, I think you're crazy if you buy into any sort of 'holding the line' in the first winter(41-42)as axis. It's never been my experience and the only time I saw it in an AAR (will not name names) was when the Soviet player was clearly out-skilled on all levels.

So for the sake of this question, answer it assuming players of equal skill level.

Thanks.

Post #: 1

RE: Quick player survey axis during first winter - 8/18/2011 12:56:00 AM

JAMiAM

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If by "hold the line" you mean have a two hex deep belt of level 2/3 forts manned by German troops that have rested since first mud, blown apart in the first three turns of blizzard, then yeah. Sure. They can "hold the line"...

On a more serious note, the extent of such disasterous dismemberment, is dependent upon the state of the Soviet army going into the winter. As the German player, you should expect about 1/3 to 1/2 of your front line to be thrashed in the above fashion, provided the Soviet player has not been entirely manhandled during the Summer and has any degree of experience or competence.

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 2

RE: Quick player survey axis during first winter - 8/18/2011 12:56:32 AM

PeeDeeAitch

Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
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I have never even tried to "hold the line" as the Germans. Given the Soviet ability to make many, many attacks in the blizzard, even if the Germans have had great gains, the Germans need to be able and willing to pull back when threatened.

I have been able to limit advances in some places, the terrain around Moscow is great for defense, but even then I have lose chunks of territory.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 3

RE: Quick player survey axis during first winter - 8/18/2011 4:59:30 AM

kirkgregerson

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Joined: 4/9/2008
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Just not possible for the axis to hold much of a line in blizzard 41. I would lick my chops if a Soviet player tried, because I could make deliberate attacks with large numbers of forces on line. Axis play has to slowly retreat and expect to have lost 5-10 hexes across entire front. Some places more and some less, but if your line holds during that first winter as axis, do me a favor and give me your opponents name because I want to play him in game!

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)

Post #: 4

RE: Quick player survey axis during first winter - 8/18/2011 9:22:21 AM

enael

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Joined: 4/13/2010
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I think it's possible to defend 50% to 80% of the front if you use all yours panzer corps. Anyway if the Russians pushed their offensive too far they may have heavy losses in the spring. That's why it's useless to hold a line.
I play my first GC (i won some scenarios) and i try to hold a line. it is a disaster. I have already lost 800,000 men during the winter. my current turn 2/26/42 :

blizzard rules are a big joke from matrix !

russians just get Kishinev this turn. I hope the bizzard will end before they enter in Romania !!

< Message edited by enael -- 8/18/2011 9:25:34 AM >

(in reply to kirkgregerson)

Post #: 5

RE: Quick player survey axis during first winter - 8/18/2011 9:23:57 AM

DorianGray

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Joined: 8/2/2008
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Another consideration of the first blizzard effects for the GE player is the increased attrition rate for your formations on the line, coupled with the winter slowly eating away at unit morale.

I know I have spent time scowering the map looking for 3 / 4 sized towns to try to build a line on.

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 6

RE: Quick player survey axis during first winter - 8/18/2011 12:17:37 PM

EisenHammer

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I think the attrition rate is about right or maybe a little bit to high. But I think the Russian advance is too slow in the winter of 41/42, they never even came close to encircling my troops during their so called offensive. This is against the AI.

< Message edited by EisenHammer -- 8/18/2011 12:18:30 PM >

(in reply to DorianGray)

Post #: 7

RE: Quick player survey axis during first winter - 8/18/2011 3:24:25 PM

Gargoil

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Joined: 1/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

I think the attrition rate is about right or maybe a little bit to high. But I think the Russian advance is too slow in the winter of 41/42, they never even came close to encircling my troops during their so called offensive. This is against the AI.

I think they are refering to PBEM games. In my first game against the AI set on normal (I'm still in only 9/42) the first winter saw many Soviet low odds attacks. I lost a hex here and there, but nothing significant. But I think this may be the big difference between AI and human. A human player is going to figure out where to attack that hurts.

(in reply to EisenHammer)

Post #: 8

RE: Quick player survey axis during first winter - 8/18/2011 5:01:05 PM

unikey

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I've not yet failed to hold the line against the AI on normal or challenging, havent played a real op yet

(in reply to Gargoil)

Post #: 9

RE: Quick player survey axis during first winter - 8/18/2011 5:13:28 PM

abulbulian

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I think the key part of this survey deals with playing a human Soviet opponent. Not saying that WitE AI isn't one of the best AIs I've seen, but it still can reproduce the thought process of a capable Soviet player.

It's really not in the best interest for axis players to hold the line at all cost, unless maybe were talking about some key city (Smolensk, Dnepsk., etc?). I would absorb the initial assaults on that first Dec turn and then start to retreat 1-2 hexes where needed as to avoid further deliberate attacks. My strategy involves losing ground, but helps keep my army in decent shape and avoid more morale lose as units are defeated. A good Soviet player will attack as much as possible and switch units on the front with reserves to continue the assault momentum. This will minimize the need for rested between assaults. Due to attrition in the 3 months of blizzard, the axis loses will be horrific in almost all cases. But a slow and steady retreat can avoid increased loses, pocketed units, and accelerated morale decline. I'm not the expert on the axis, but I'm sure some others that are can expand on how best to handle that first axis winter.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 8/18/2011 5:15:50 PM >

(in reply to unikey)

Post #: 10

RE: Quick player survey axis during first winter - 8/18/2011 8:23:34 PM

Balou

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+1

Vs AI: Axis blizzard attrition isn't a problem with v1.04.36 in normal or challenging (as compared to previous versions) as long as ger fortification levels are 3+, which calls for digging in during the first mud turns. Overall good chances to have a lot of preserved power in March 42 that offers the possibility to be on the offensive with the first snow turns (provided Mob Divs rested and refitted from Dec until end of February).

Vs Human: After a couple of AI games, I switched to PBEM, huge difference as expected. IMO it all depends on the ability of your Sov opponent. If he identifies your weak spots - and there will be a lot of - then something like an organized retreat was the best I could do, up to 100 miles in some areas, with or without digged-in ger units (almost no forts). Retreats were somehow less dramatic with good axis leaders, but there are not to many around (don't know about Sov leaders of my opponents). Unresolved question: the last blizzard weeks were mostly brutal, and I couldn't resist to throw in some Pz/Mot Divs to fill gaps. Although basically in good shape, the ger elite was far away from its summer performances, losses in materiel were sometimes awesome by attrition only, and worse when defending such gaps. Maybe further retreats would have been a better choice in non-vital areas, but as Axis commanders are likely to think: "wherever the german soldier puts his foot...".

(in reply to abulbulian)

Post #: 11