The Marines' War in the Pacific

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The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/16/2011 4:19:05 AM

KG Erwin

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I've often wondered why the USMC campaigns in WWII receive such little attention from gamers. Their battles, arguably, were amongst the toughest of the war, and certainly were bloody affairs. In SPWaW, they are featured prominently, but there's little else to choose from in the tactical sense. One reason, I suppose, is that apart from Guadalcanal and New Britain, there was little room for grand strategic maneuvers. In most of the island invasions, it was simply a bloody slugfest, in which the Marines and Army literally had to kill every last Japanese defender. It turned into a medieval type war of hatred and total destruction using then-modern weapons. Does this factor turn off some gamers? Maybe.

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/16/2011 4:33:33 AM

planner 3

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KC (Gunny): I dare say you answered your own question. I agree with your premise that the island combat was/were a slugfest. That said I take nothing away from the US Marines, who did the JOB.

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/16/2011 2:34:49 PM

Hanal

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Do not forget John Tiller's Campaign Series and Norm Kroger's Operational Art of War III for some very good Pacific scenarios...

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/16/2011 7:45:34 PM

sprior

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ASL's Gung Ho! was/is an entire ASL module dedicated to the USMC. There was a HASL module/game too I believe.

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/16/2011 9:59:11 PM

KG Erwin

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I gotta hand it to legendary scenario designer Bill Wilder, whose Pacific War scenarios for SPWaW really got me interested in USMC history. He helped me meet some folks, and that's how I got involved in the gaming community, as an assistant article writer for SPWaW's "Screaming Eagles" megacampaign, and as an OOB assistant for earlier versions of SPWaW. This was before Alby & Co came into the picture, and before programmer Michael Wood came back to actually make several needed changes to SPWaW.

Since that time I've bought dozens of Pacific War books, became friends with webmaster Mark Flowers of WWII Gyrene, and still having a great experience in studying the Marines of WWII.

It was my interest in all this, some 8 years ago, that earned me the honorific title of "Gunny", which a few old buddies still refer to me as.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 8/17/2011 3:36:39 AM >

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/17/2011 12:01:18 AM

Titanwarrior89

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I wish some developer whould make a war in the pacific game.....as the same scale and set up as Combat Mission: Normandy. I would be a happy camper.

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/17/2011 2:21:17 AM

jomni

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I guess it is more enjoyable playing PTO at the strategic level like Pacific War or at the tactial level.� Difficult to make a good operaitonal level game when action involves small islands and hostile terrain.

For tactical, the Squad Battles series has two titles that fit the bill.
"Prowd and the Few" (specific focus on USMC)
"Pacific War" (involves all the other countries)
Very nice games if you can get over the old-school graphics.

< Message edited by jomni -- 8/17/2011 2:22:06 AM >

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/23/2011 1:34:17 PM

bairdlander2

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For me I have no interest as my grandfathers fought in Europe.If they had fought in the Pacific I would be interested.

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/23/2011 3:42:56 PM

carnifex

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Marines? Pacific War? Yeah, good times....

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/26/2011 3:57:43 AM

rhondabrwn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex

Marines? Pacific War? Yeah, good times....

What a coincidence... I've been going through my old wargaming magazines and that ad was on the back page of an old S&T. I was thinking about starting a thread with old gaming ads scanned in from 20 years ago. Just for old times sake! I've got old catalogs from the SPI years and it's a walk down memory lane to see the ads.

This image was going to be my first one to post!

What do you think guys? Would this make an interesting thread?

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/26/2011 5:36:00 AM

ilovestrategy

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I would love it Rhonda!

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/29/2011 7:42:22 AM

shenzhuzhubin

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good

Coach Purses

Coach outlet

Coach Factory Outlet

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/29/2011 8:58:50 AM

Hanal

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Another spammer needing to be snared!

Attachment (1)

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/29/2011 9:09:53 AM

Josh

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"What do you think guys? Would this make an interesting thread?"

And to think I've thrown the old mags away years ago. Foolish-foolish-foolish.

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/30/2011 8:58:01 PM

rhondabrwn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

"What do you think guys? Would this make an interesting thread?"

And to think I've thrown�the old�mags�away years ago. Foolish-foolish-foolish.

I'm a packrat, I've got boxes and boxes of AH Generals, Fire & Movement, S&T, MOVES, and a varied assortment of a few lesser known magazines. I've been strolling down memory lane as I look through them... I especially enjoy reading old S&T's from the 1970's that include speculation about the "future of warfare"! No one even speculated on remote controlled armed drone aircraft.

What is especially interesting are a couple of old SPI product catalogs that I still have... I am still amazed at how many games they produced! They changed the entire hobby from a "one game a year" from Avalon Hill to the multitudinous output in both board and computer games that exists today.

I will start scanning some interesting ads and get a "Memory Lane" thread going

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/30/2011 9:58:35 PM

Josh

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Thx Rhonda.
All I've got left are some Airfix catalogues from the 70's, the rest is gone /sigh. Memory lane indeed, quite suprising really how fast you get old.

edit; I was purely talking about me ofcourse.

< Message edited by Josh -- 8/30/2011 9:59:15 PM >

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/30/2011 11:25:51 PM

rhondabrwn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

Thx Rhonda.
All I've got left are some Airfix catalogues from the 70's, the rest is gone /sigh. Memory lane indeed, quite suprising really how fast you get old.
edit; I was purely talking about me ofcourse.

Well, as I look at these old magazines and see dates from the 1970's I start thinking... OMG - it's been 40 years since I bought these! How time flies!!! These mags are ANTIQUES!

And in really great shape too... most of them mint condition. Don't know if I want to sell them though. I think I'll read them all again before I do that.

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 8/30/2011 11:37:19 PM

KG Erwin

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Back to the subject at hand, I post a brief video biography of one of the Marines portrayed in HBO's "The Pacific": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GHjgKvl25s

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 12/30/2011 6:40:19 PM

KG Erwin

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One of the things that haunts me about the Pacific War is that one of my uncles, now deceased, served with the army on Okinawa. I was too young to know how to ask him the right questions, so there is an empty section in my memory. Uncle Dennis passed away without sharing many of his stories with me. This is part of the reason I am fascinated by the Pacific War, and why I ask questions of another uncle, who is still alive, who served in Vietnam. Uncle Harry has shared some stuff with me, which I'll keep to myself, as it is still painful to him.

As a wargamer, I don't take the typical "gamer's" POV in playing out these battles. Sure, I play to win, but it is out of respect to these family members that I keep in mind that each virtual man that I lose is someone's son or husband or brother. Some gamers have ridiculed me for my attitude, but they just don't understand. Minimizing my casualties and maximizing my use of weapons isn't out of any innate "bloodlust", but out of my respect for the veterans. Make of this what you will, but I hate war and I play these games with an element of seriousness -- it is a mission to be achieved, a job to get done, and to bring my men home. I keep this in mind whenever I play -- it is an unfortunate but necessary evil, and I want to be the best commander I can be in order to achieve those ends.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 12/30/2011 6:42:24 PM >

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 12/30/2011 6:59:20 PM

Titanwarrior89

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Also two tactical series(Guadalcanal)(by gamers)(boardgames)-out of print- but you can get e'm at boardgame geek. The HPS squad series I just can't get into. SpWaw is the best!

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

ASL's Gung Ho! was/is an entire ASL module dedicated to the USMC. There was a HASL module/game too I believe.

< Message edited by Titanwarrior89 -- 12/30/2011 7:01:42 PM >

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 12/30/2011 8:22:31 PM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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IMO, the lack of interest in PTO battlefield games has a lot to do with the nature of the fighting, which is, after all, focused on attrition-warfare. As was the case with WWI, there's an awful lot of "pain for gain" I suspect that players find it frustrating and depressing to bang there head against a proverbial wall. Such a game can have value as a history-lesson, of sorts. Having learned the lesson, however, I don't necessarily want to simulate the event over and over again.

If you contrast that kind of experience with maneuver-warfare, a prime example being the German "blitzkrieg," I believe that you'll find that the psychological impact on most players to be completely different. I can only speak for myself, but I typically don't judge my performance in a game by the victory conditions, alone, but rather by the efficiency with which I played. Indeed, my goal is to accomplish the stated objectives, but I contrive to do so in such a way that minimizes my own losses. Suffice it so say, a careful perusal of the "dead-pile" at the end of the contest is time-honored ritual on my part.

A case in point?

The OP mentioned Bill Wilder's work with Steel Panthers. I remember playing an Okinawa scenario that was simply horrific. The USA had to take a hill that was filled with what I took to be caves. In spite of the fact that the USA force had numerous Sherman AFV, the going was awful. Japanese sappers kept emerging from nowhere and blowing the Shermans up. Even when I won the stupid scenario, I felt freakin' awful afterward. I also realized that I was never going to play that scenario to my satisfaction because the losses were always going to be higher than I thought reasonable or prudent.

Anyway, that's my theory concerning the relative "scarcity of interest" in PTO land-combat among wargamers.

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 12/30/2011 9:47:50 PM

Titanwarrior89

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plus most developers publish what they can sale......Money, money......its rich man's world.

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 12/30/2011 10:25:28 PM

KG Erwin

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When I first started playing PTO scenarios in SPWaW, I quickly began to realize that this was a very different kind of war. I used to be a German fan, but when I started studying the Pacific War, I quickly began to understand that the US Marines were a very special breed of fighters, and that the island campaigns of WWII were fought with a kind of brutality that was alien to the Americans in the ETO.

It is for this reason that I think that HBO's "The Pacific" miniseries is superb, in that it offers up more than just battle scenes, but studies how the combat and the conditions in was fought under affects the mindset of the men involved. It is unsettling, and gives one much to think about. The USMC and army weren't always "good guys", and this also makes the PTO ground campaigns a tough sell. The same thing happens in Vietnam games.

In any case, it is extremely difficult for me to get involved in a long campaign as the USMC, because it is very tough and mentally challenging. It is especially tough during the 1942 battles, as the USMC is still using 1918 weapons and facing a Japanese opponent who is as yet undefeated.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 12/30/2011 10:38:08 PM >

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 12/30/2011 10:42:04 PM

JudgeDredd

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KG

Not wanting to "burst your bubble" or anything - but I do have to ask....

I've seen you comment on many many posts about the US Marines and the Pacific Theatre - so I have to ask - are they the only unit to fight through the islands?

I do honestly know nothing about the Pacific Theatre - so I'm genuinely asking - was it just the Marines that did the fighting there? And the reason I ask it is because - if it wasn't, then I do think it's kind of....well....perhaps others need a mention. Becuase - seriously - when you EVER talk about the Pacific, it's about the Marines.

If they are the only unit that took part in that campaign, then fine...but if not, then it's just a little disrespectful to the other units. That's all.

Seriosuly - I am not picking on you here...I've read, many many posts from you about the Marines and I get the connection....I just genuinely want to know if there were other units there - and maybe give them a mention.

I take NOTHING awya from the Marines and their efforts in the Pacific.

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 12/30/2011 11:12:26 PM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckm�hl

IMO, the lack of interest in PTO battlefield games has a lot to do with the nature of the fighting,

I agree, while the grab em by the belt buckle and pound away nature of the fighting was some of the toughest of the war, it�s hard to simulate that on an operational level other than by giving Marines some kind of combat bonus to a die roll that resolves the fight. Not a great way to simulate the different nature of the combat the Marines fought if you ask me. The only games that could possibly serve history well and give players a taste of Pacific combat would be very tactical in nature. Thus SPWaW was well suited to it.

Personally I think even the squad level combat of SPWaW is too large a scale. Individual soldier combats somehow simulating the intense nature of trying to clear a machine gun bunker or cave would be best, but I don�t think I�ve ever seen a game other than the old Victory Games board game Hero series that modeled individual guys. I think one of the games was called Purple Heart, can�t remember the rest.

I do have a vague recollection of an old PC title back in the late 80s that modeled individual men, but I can�t recall the name of it. Orders were plotted ahead of time and each turn was about one minute or so. Of course it was all ASCII graphics back then but the system seemed a sound idea on how to model such combats on a PC.

Jim

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 12/30/2011 11:25:58 PM

Jim D Burns

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Without going into a lengthy history lesson. Yes there were plenty of other combat formations in the Pacific. But all the really tough jobs that saw exceptionally horrendous casualty rates went to the Marines. At least up until Okinawa, everyone took it on the chin there, not just the Marines.

Case in point, Iwo Jima was a six week fight. About 75k Marines landed, 26k were casualties. That�s 1 in 3 that were hit. And it averages to over 600 guys a day getting hit.

Jim

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 12/30/2011 11:45:54 PM

KG Erwin

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To set the record straight, the US Army had more amphibious landings than the USMC in the Pacific. However, the toughest assaults, such as Iwo Jima and Peleliu, were undertaken by the USMC, with some support by the army on both landings. In the case of Iwo Jima, the USMC was supported by flame tanks of the US Army. No USA infantry took part. I have no intention of denigrating the Army's part in winning the Pacific War, OK? However, the Marines had six divisions fighting in the PTO, and their losses were the equivalent of one entire division.

Now, as far as launching the first US ground offensive of WWII, the 1st Marine Division holds that distinction, landing on Florida Island and Guadalcanal nine months to the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Army units landed on Guadalcanal in October 1942, two months after the Marines.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 12/31/2011 12:05:10 AM >

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 12/31/2011 1:10:02 AM

JudgeDredd

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KG - I genuinely do not mean to call into question the Marine Divisions contribution to the Pacific Theatre - nor did I want to suggest that you singled out that unit.

I have seen from your posts that you have some sort of affiliation with the Marines - to what degree I do not know - but the fact you have a respect for armed forces and their struggle in the world of Politics and Humanity is respected.

I just felt the need to point out that if other units took part in the Pacific Theatre (and I genuinely say if because I genuinely have no idea whether it was solely the Marines), then perhaps when you post these threads (which you do from time to time), that you maybe not "specifically" mention that particular unit (the US Marines) - and perhaps mention other units that are there. Of course it's not necessary to mention a total ToE - but perhaps mention the other units involved...at the very least give a cursory mention to other units.

Although - when you are talking about a specific battle, then it's totally acceptable to mention the specific unit.

But if other units were involved (and again, I have to mention my total ignorance of the region an it's fighting) then it's very derogatory to other units involvement when your posts specifically mention the Marine Corps. In fact, if I was to take my TOTAL knowledge of the Pacific Theatre from your posts then it would come across that it was solely the Marine Corps that fought the war in that theatre.

If that is correct, then so be it....but there is a part of me (with no idea of the region) that suspects that other units were involved - at some degree...be it lesser or more in certain places!

I have no real affiliation either way - having only a grandfather who fought in WWII through Normandy and beyond.........but it is VERY easy for units to be - mislaid.

I'm not saying you do that on purpose nor am I insinuating that you do it on purpose for the benefit of the Marines....but I do think there were other units that took part in the Pacific theatre and whilst I totally admire your admiration for the Marines, I seldom see your posts mention "the little people".

I do genuinely love that you love the people that fought for our freedom, but I do think your plaudits could be spread a bit wider. I have absolutely no problem with you praising the Marine Corps.......but if you do have the knowledge of the Pacific Theatre that I think you have then I suspect that you know (even though I just think I know) that it wasn't just the Marine Corps that fought the battles there.

I am absolutely totally willing to be told I'm talking crap - as I know zip about the region - and whilst I am happy to accept that perhaps the Marine Corps did the majority of the fighting - I cannot convince myself that they were the only unit.

Please, please continue to support the Marine Corps - but please think about praising all units involved....I guess there are very, very different criteria for working out what units where involved at what stage and at what proximity and to what level.

At the end of the day I think we can all say that ALL units were involved at ALL levels and for any length of time....is the best way I can "sum up" the "Pacificd Theatre" without leaving any countries (even with the smallest of contributors) out.

Have a great New Year and it's still a pleasure seeing you kicking around here...

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RE: The Marines' War in the Pacific - 12/31/2011 1:26:50 AM

Rosseau

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I remember that SSG Battlefront Saipan tutorial scenario. It was a tough one back then. And yes, I'd like to see scans of old magazines, too.

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