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Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 7:50:20 PM

jzardos

Posts: 662
Joined: 3/15/2011
Status: offline

It's very sad that I have to even post something of this nature, but my guess is not all that uncommon across any gaming community. I wanted to share this unfortunate event to try and solicit feedback on others similar experiences and try and maybe brainstorm ideas how to prevent/reduce the chances of such events from happening to others.

Over a month ago I started a human vs human game with a WitE member for a cg41(me Soviets) scenario. We both agreed before starting the game that it would be for the long haul and that we'd 'play it out.

At first he was very timely on returning turns, however, after his attacks started to falter a bit in the late summer/fall things started to change. Just for reference and my observations, his pushing the mobile units to far and getting them cut off from supplies at times as well as pushed back by concentrated Sov conuter-attacks was key to his slow progress.

So now we come to blizzard and after t29 he complained something doesn't feel right and wanted to surrender. It seemed he was a bit concerned that his units couldn't hold a line. I explained that he was allowing my deliberate attacks on units that he was putting back on the frontline and no fortification left. I could easily punch these units out and just do it again following turns. He needed to retreat back and that was his mistake. I reminded him that I didn't start this game to just have it end once the Soviets were capable of doing something and it was not to play 30 turns. This was a CG41 scenario which he knows is 200+ turns.

So he did agree to play on until I receive the below email content after blizzard ended (t38).

quote:

I play games to have fun and this one hasn't been in quite some time. So I'm ending it here.

Which to me seems very selfish and inconsiderate to all the time investment I've made in the game so far (100 hrs more or less). I know this isn't an isolated event and I'm wondering what can be done to make people more aware of who are the people that can be trusted to play it out when they commit to that in a campaign game.

My idea was to keep a list of comments if other people have issues with players, just so that can be cross referenced before starting a game to know if a player is one like I just played. I believe this person I played has probably just quit other games or will in the future. If possible, I want to prevent him from doing this to others. He does have some current games going, ones he's doing well with, thus hasn't quit them yet. Looking back I was curious as to why he was willing to start so many games, now I believe he figured he would only continue the ones he was doing ok or didn't feel he was losing. Either way I got burnt and now I'm both disappointed and discourage a bit from starting another game. The irony is had I been doing worse in my game, we'd still be playing.

I'm going to refrain, for now, from mentioning this persons member name. But I won't hesitate to post it if the responses to this thread are that people want to be aware of these selfish/rude player types.

FYI: T38 situation
Soviets: 7 million men, 6k tanks
Germans: 3.1 million men, 2.7k tanks
Soviets hold: Len, Moscow, Smolensk, Kharkov, Kursk, Dnep, and Sevastopol

< Message edited by jzardos -- 8/29/2011 7:54:43 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 7:59:37 PM

Encircled

Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline

Only a German player can tell you how likely that game is to be turned around.

I need practice as the Germans (Soviet fan boy here!) so if you can get his password off him, I'm more than willing to see how it goes and try to take over from him.

I won't be a swift player though, as I only have time for 2/3 turns a week (have 1GC running for over six months as the Soviet, and we are only in Oct '42 and I want to keep that going as I think its still fairly open about who is going to win)

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Post #: 2

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 8:02:48 PM

Gargoil

Posts: 389
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline

I am sorry that this happened, but it is the nature of these types of games.

I actually do not blame your opponent. Think about it - no matter which side has made the game "uninteresting", it is just that. The only games that are interesting are ones that the outcome is in at least some doubt.

Get another game going - even against the same guy. But I would not expect ANY PLAYER to tough out a uninteresting game. Even if they do, they have lost all morale to give you a go game anyway.

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 3

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 8:06:27 PM

mmarquo

Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline

"I play games to have fun and this one hasn't been in quite some time. So I'm ending it here."

Jzardos,

I feel your pain, but there could be several explanations for this; some related to the personality of your opponent, and others related to game mechanics, balance, etc.
What is needed is a ladder, with an area for comments in case a player prematurely resigns; a ladder exists at the Blitz.

The other possibility is a WITE Ironman club: eveyone in the club promises to finish the game unless the opponents mutually agree to stop prematurely. If the decision is unilateral for whatever case, then the culprit can be trashed, besmirched, vilified and then kicked out of the club by a vote of club members. BTW, I favor the WITE Ironman Club; maybe the Site master can set up a subformum for this; or at least post a directory of members.

Marquo

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 4

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 8:15:01 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gargoil
I actually do not blame your opponent. Think about it - no matter which side has made the game "uninteresting", it is just that. The only games that are interesting are ones that the outcome is in at least some doubt.

Get another game going - even against the same guy. But I would not expect ANY PLAYER to tough out a uninteresting game. Even if they do, they have lost all morale to give you a go game anyway.

Obviously this depends on your opponent. However, I dispute that the interest of the game lies on the result is in doubt. Games that I know I can't win - such as GC 1942-45 I'm playing with Rafo and started with 1.03 patch - I am getting from it what I expect: learn a lot of stuff about how the German side works and how game mechanics play out in the context of 1943 - 45 conditions. Masochism? Not really, more like curiosity :)

PS: I need to thank my opponent. He's an excellent player and without him I wouldn't have gained half as much insight about how different things work out for both Germans and Soviets ;)

_____________________________

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Post #: 5

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 8:17:37 PM

Jakerson

Posts: 565
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline

All I can say this happens some of my opponents have simply disappeared or quit when it starts to get little rough and I don�t say just German players sometimes quitter have been Soviet player. I have always played every scenario and campaign I have started to end so my opponent can have his final score even when I know that I am going to lose.

It is just matter of setting goal. If I know I am going to lose then I play for just trying to end game for marginal victory for my opponent if that is not possible then I play for holding some last key objectives. Desperate standoff could have a lot of fun I currently play 1944 campaign as German side and it is fun even when Soviet rolls my lines everywhere I do not mind it is not balanced my only goal is trying to hold Berlin longer than historically.

I actually hope that there could be some webpage where you can rate your opponents so you could check their reputation before you start playing against them and where you can report possible premature disappearing players and quitters so other people know their reputation before they start playing with them. Also giving positive feedback for good opponents should be possible.

(in reply to Encircled)

Post #: 6

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 8:28:35 PM

Gargoil

Posts: 389
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
It is just matter of setting goal. If I know I am going to lose then I play for just trying to end game for marginal victory for my opponent if that is not possible then I play for holding some last key objectives. Desperate standoff could have a lot of fun I currently play 1944 campaign as German side and it is fun even when Soviet rolls my lines everywhere I do not mind it is not balanced my only goal is trying to hold Berlin longer than historically.

But what if it is obvious that it is going to end as a complete disaster? How then can you hope that your opponent is going to even give it any effort even if they continue?

Edit: Don't get me wrong, some games I've played I have reset my goal to simply surprize my opponent when we both know it is all over but for the shooting.

< Message edited by Gargoil -- 8/29/2011 8:30:18 PM >

(in reply to Jakerson)

Post #: 7

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 8:41:01 PM

jzardos

Posts: 662
Joined: 3/15/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

I actually hope that there could be some webpage where you can rate your opponents so you could check their reputation before you start playing against them and where you can report possible premature disappearing players and quitters so other people know their reputation before they start playing with them. Also giving positive feedback for good opponents should be possible.

Maybe there could be a section on the WitE Wiki to list player vs player results of games?

(in reply to Jakerson)

Post #: 8

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 9:04:14 PM

Jakerson

Posts: 565
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gargoil
But what if it is obvious that it is going to end as a complete disaster? How then can you hope that your opponent is going to even give it any effort even if they continue?

Edit: Don't get me wrong, some games I've played I have reset my goal to simply surprize my opponent when we both know it is all over but for the shooting.

Maybe they care and play to maintain the reputation if everything else is lost?

I think it encourage people to be rude becouse there is no site to report poor opponents and give feedback about good opponents.

(in reply to Gargoil)

Post #: 9

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 9:06:21 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline

Hard to say, I've been on both sides of that. I'll be the first to admit I lost interest in my last WITP-AE campaign for various reasons, but that engine is much harder to just "beer n' pretzel" for awhile.

Hasn't happened in WITE. Though, my current PBEM with Tarhunnas I am sure will end when 1.05 comes out, by mutual agreement

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Post #: 10

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 9:58:47 PM

Klydon

Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline

Tough call on this either way.

Would you feel better if the guy lied to you and said stuff had come up in RL and that he had to cut back on games? How about he continues to go along and just hits the completed turn button without really putting much effort into it?

We all play for different reasons, but the game turns do take up a considerable amount of time and each game is a big investment in time. It sounds like the Germans are pretty much done in your game with that force ratio and with what you still hold. It may suck in the early going for the Russians to be in the receiving end of getting the crap kicked out of them and be patient to return that favor and then have a German go belly up on them and deny them "their turn" at the offensive, but in a sense, the Russians have scored a moral victory by breaking the German player's will to continue to invest the time and play.

With the pending changes coming, I expect this issue to become worse as players will want to try the latest and greatest version of the game and there will likely be a lot of games abandoned either by mutual consent or just one player outright quitting.

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 11

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 10:21:37 PM

timmyab

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline

I go along with Klydon here.If someone's lost interest, I'd much rather they quit and the sooner the better.
It doesn't bother me at all when people quit as long as they keep me informed.I just chalk it up as a win and start again.The people that disappear without a word are annoying.I also think it's polite to discuss a resignation with your opponent rather than just foisting it on them.
I like the Ironman club idea.It would mean imposing a maximum period of days for returning a turn though otherwise someone could say, "I haven't quit, I'm just playing really slowly".

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 12

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 10:22:47 PM

Ketza

Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline

You were beating him and he surrendered.

Thats a win baby!

(in reply to Klydon)

Post #: 13

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 10:32:55 PM

jzardos

Posts: 662
Joined: 3/15/2011
Status: offline

Yes, I guess I'm more upset at the circumstances with the game just being done after spending so much time making all the adjustments over the last 38 turns with the Soviet OOB. I had done a lot of work to organize my units. So being upset at this individual that quit has diminished over the past 24hrs. People bring up good points about would I rather see him lie to me about why he couldn't continue. Suppose at least he was honest about how he felt, even if it's not a reason I agree with based on our mutual contract to play through entire campaign.

Would have been satisfied even if he just decided to play 2 turns a week rather than the fast pace as before.

< Message edited by jzardos -- 8/29/2011 10:33:54 PM >

(in reply to Ketza)

Post #: 14

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/29/2011 11:08:46 PM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

You won what more do you want?

Some times because of a major up-date both sides agree to start over. Draw.

I have had some poeple quit on me all Russian, just stop playing.

I totally respect the guys that say I am getting my ass kicked, is it ok for me to resign. They did not quit. And I would 100% be happy with playing them again. Generally they are new an lack exp.

I personally play for fun and if someone I am playing is not having fun its 100% fine by me if they resign.
It is a game an we all play to have fun.

The perfect game would be one that is in doubt until 45, but we are all still waiting on that one.

As the game gets balanced out with each patch and if you can find an evenly matched player then hopefully long games will be the norm at some pt.

Pelton

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 15

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 12:05:23 AM

mmarquo

Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline

"The perfect game would be one that is in doubt until 45, but we are all still waiting on that one."

Which AAR was that? I missed it.

Thanks,

Marquo

(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 16

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 12:10:55 AM

LiquidSky

Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

he says he is still waiting..

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(in reply to mmarquo)

Post #: 17

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 1:51:24 AM

PeeDeeAitch

Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline

I have been winning and my opponent threw in the towel, that is fine. I have been winning and lost interest (I didn't want to see how far I could get in 1941) and so I threw in the towel. I have been beaten, and ended due to mutual agreement, I have begun to lose and struggled and continue to play it out. All are possible, and all take interaction and communication between opponents. I don't disrespect anyone who has given up, I don't think less of me for doing so. I have always tried to be candid and open with my other, and play the best I can.

It is sometimes hard to start anew with another person, after things have been so "good" in a game, and that I understandable. However, I also understand not wanting to continue for a myriad of reasons. People are people, and they play this for various ends and goals. One big however is that a database of "rate my opponent" is rather poor in my opinion, as one persons loser is another persons great foe - it depends on the game, the time, the circumstances. It would become too easy to devolve into a "who is awful" type of popularity contest...

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to LiquidSky)

Post #: 18

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 1:56:54 AM

56ajax

Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline

Considering how long it takes to play this game...when all is lost most people give up...too be honest i think any game should have house rules checkpoints established by mutual consent whereby the opponents discuss whether to continue or not....

(in reply to LiquidSky)

Post #: 19

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 4:30:56 AM

kirkgregerson

Posts: 497
Joined: 4/9/2008
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I understand how upsetting that can be to somebody bail on a WitE campaign game.� You have every right to be disappointed with your opponent's decision to just quit.� It happens and personally I would like to have a reputation score for all members.� It would be somewhat subjective and not always easy to substantiate, but still better than nothing when looking for an opponent.� Although people could just look at the AARs and probably determine which players will stick it out and which probably won't.� Of course your prospective opponent might not have any AAR history at that time.

I will give props to Gfelz for sticking it out in a CG41 game which is now going on t99. I did fairly well as axis and took Leningrad, Moscow and penetrated deep into the Caucasus. Never got Stalingrad. But he stuck with it and now is starting to get some arty muscle in spring 43 to begin to push me back.

< Message edited by kirkgregerson -- 8/30/2011 4:38:12 AM >

(in reply to 56ajax)

Post #: 20

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 5:05:15 AM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
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Status: offline

Throwing in the towel actually happens quite often in online competitive games, even those that are designed from the ground up to be a fair fight.

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Post #: 21

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 5:19:42 AM

delatbabel

Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

Perhaps we do need a ladder where both completed and abandoned games can be ranked.

I've won 2 as the Soviets due to opponents disappearing, and lost one due to just being beaten by a better player.

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Del

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Post #: 22

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 8:37:18 AM

KenchiSulla

Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline

This happens, just let it end.. You clearly beat him using the current game rules, good job..

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.�
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Post #: 23

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 9:55:36 AM

karonagames

Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I am probably the last person who should be contributing to a thread about quitting games, but I don't think the issue is simply one of etiquette and pre-game determination to finish the game, but also trying to match skill and ability.

In pre-release testing, one of my greatest concerns was that everyone would get fixated on the 41GC and jump straight in to a game that modelled the 1941 first winter probably more accurately than any game heretofore - i.e. a real shock to the system. And lo and behold the first 6 months after release were spent screaming about the blizzard and/or learning how to cope with it. The simple fact is that nothing can prepare you for the first blizzard, and all you can do is learn the lessons it teaches you and apply them to your next game.

So I would suggest that part of the match making process when setting up games should be for the Axis player to confirm that he knows how to survive the blizzard and rebuild the Axis ready for the summer of 1942. A minimum requirement should be to have played Operation Typhoon (5 turns of Blizzard)PBEM before embarking on a full 200+ turn game.

There is fun to be had on the other side of the Blizzard for an Axis player, but there is a pretty major fun-less period to be endured to get there.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 8/30/2011 9:59:13 AM >

(in reply to KenchiSulla)

Post #: 24

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 11:55:52 AM

Tarhunnas

Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline

It is probably unavoidable that people will quit when things are going badly or when they lose interest. What makes this especially annoying in WITE is that the Axis have a period of fun for the first 17 turns and then the Soviets will have their fun. An Axis player who takes his fun and then quits is the online gaming equivalent of a poor lover!

On the other hand, you cannot expect people to continue putting in at least an hour per turn for months into something that has ceased to be fun for them. I have had 6 Axis opponents quit for one reason or other.

While I am at it, I must give credit to my opponent Gids, who has been extremely tenacious and is always promptly returning the turns, even in the darkest moments of adversity!

_____________________________

Read my AAR:s ye mighty, and despair!
41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
42Ger
42Sov

(in reply to karonagames)

Post #: 25

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 11:57:16 AM

Tarhunnas

Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

There is fun to be had on the other side of the Blizzard for an Axis player.

At least, lets hope there will be in 1.05.

_____________________________

Read my AAR:s ye mighty, and despair!
41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
42Ger
42Sov

(in reply to karonagames)

Post #: 26

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 1:19:49 PM

Commanderski

Posts: 927
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

While I don't have the time to do a PBEM game, at least for the time being, I have played several games by Email in the past. I've had quite a few opponents either develope "computer problems" or just dissappear if they were losing. The last Email game I played was John Tiller's game Smolensk '41 as the Soviets. It was a long game and I lost in the end but I played to the end.

I've read where quite a few Axis players quit during or just after the blizzard. While that may have sort of been expected just after the game came out but there has been more than enough information in this forum to let the Axis player know what he is in for.

If they quit, that is a win for you but is frustrating as the Soviet player as they have a lot more work to do in getting their forces together

(in reply to Tarhunnas)

Post #: 27

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 1:32:12 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

I play games to have fun and this one hasn't been in quite some time. So I'm ending it here.

And from another post:

quote:

All the more reasons why the AI, although it can make a reasonably competent training/sparring partner, will never be as fun or challenging to play as a human.

Ah, the irony.

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 28

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 2:11:46 PM

Jakerson

Posts: 565
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Tough call on this either way.

Would you feel better if the guy lied to you and said stuff had come up in RL and that he had to cut back on games? How about he continues to go along and just hits the completed turn button without really putting much effort into it?

We all play for different reasons, but the game turns do take up a considerable amount of time and each game is a big investment in time. It sounds like the Germans are pretty much done in your game with that force ratio and with what you still hold. It may suck in the early going for the Russians to be in the receiving end of getting the crap kicked out of them and be patient to return that favor and then have a German go belly up on them and deny them "their turn" at the offensive, but in a sense, the Russians have scored a moral victory by breaking the German player's will to continue to invest the time and play.

With the pending changes coming, I expect this issue to become worse as players will want to try the latest and greatest version of the game and there will likely be a lot of games abandoned either by mutual consent or just one player outright quitting.

It dosent really matter what reason are if there would be some way to rate opponents. People who quit takes hit for their reputation and suffer from it when it makes harder to find good opponents in the future forcing them to play only with new players and possible worse quitters.

If there would be some reputation to guard it would gurantee better play when there would be price to pay from dissappearing tactics. It would propably make new players harder to find good opponents but if people would have to invest time to build good reputation it is unlikely they want to lose it easily.

(in reply to Klydon)

Post #: 29

RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette - 8/30/2011 2:14:47 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
What makes this especially annoying in WITE is that the Axis have a period of fun for the first 17 turns and then the Soviets will have their fun. An Axis player who takes his fun and then quits is the online gaming equivalent of a poor lover!

I agree, the first 17 turns as Sov are both tedious (tons of admin/reorg) and depressing (armies smashed, cities and factories taken), so for a German player to quit after the first summer is very unsportsmanlike. While the German player might not want to play to the bitter end, you'd think they'd be willing to play until the end of 1942, or something...

(in reply to Tarhunnas)

Post #: 30