RE: List of 1.05 update changes?

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RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 8/31/2011 10:12:47 PM

Reconvet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

So the 1:1 --> 2:1 rule remains in the game?

No, it was replaced to 0:1 -> 3:1 and we changed the side who receives the bonus.

Oh my, I DID touch a soft spot, hm? Good thing I didn't post Peltons pig pic with my question. I sincerely apologize for my impertinence, to your highness, your wife and offspring, to your ancestors, etc etc.

And believe it or not, I do appreciate the effort you put into this game, but I admit I have problems. One of them being the inability to share your assessment of the implications of said rule. But you won't drain me of my longing to see this rule gone. Sooner or later. Obviously later...

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Post #: 31

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 8/31/2011 10:19:36 PM

Tarhunnas

Posts: 3152
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From: Hex X37, Y15
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

So the 1:1 --> 2:1 rule remains in the game?

No, it was replaced to 0:1 -> 3:1 and we changed the side who receives the bonus.

LOL!

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41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
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Post #: 32

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 8/31/2011 10:27:52 PM

Michael T

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From: Queensland, Australia.
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quote:

No, it was replaced to 0:1 -> 3:1 and we changed the side who receives the bonus.

That will make all the German fanboys happy.....ah no on second thoughts only the 'Germany wins button' would do that

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Post #: 33

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 12:02:12 AM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
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First off, let me set the record straight. Pavel (Helpless) has never supported the Soviet Doctrine rule. I think Gary added it in when Pavel was busy with other things and Pavel never focused on it before release. Once it came up after release, he was always in favor of removing the rule. However, he acknowledged it had play balance implications and couldn't be removed without some thought and additional work on other parts of the game. Gary is the one that continues to feel that there were doctrinal differences that could justify a rule, but Pavel has argued that morale/experience/leader skill and OB accounts for doctrinal differences. Gary has conceded that the public dislike of the rule justified altering it, although without Pavel's arguments there's a greater chance it would have remained unchanged. We have come to a tentative agreement to remove the rule sometime after the first winter, and I expect the change will be in the game before the 1.05 goes public. It will have an impact, but the exact impact is as of yet unknown. Be careful for what you wish for.

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Post #: 34

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 12:23:57 AM

CarnageINC

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Thanks Joel for setting the record straight on 1:1 rule, its nice to know the developers care enough to listen to what the public is discussing.

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Post #: 35

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 12:26:39 AM

Erik Rutins

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From: Vermont, USA
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As Joel said, Pavel has been the main champion on the development team for removing this rule. I also have some reservations about removing it instead of adjusting it, but the current plan based on our internal testing is to remove it for the 1.05 public beta, so we'll see how things go.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 36

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 2:35:07 AM

Farfarer61

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Well of course an "adjustment" is correct as the rule was an attempt to emulate Soviet casualty-accepting doctrine to win a piece of terrain. If simply extricated from the code, what will emulate this ability to win a 'hex' for a few thousand dead? The rule was actually simplistically elegant, but of course could be exploited strategically.
I suggest the Soviets get a combat bonus/casualty penalty in deliberate attacks. "Deliberate" meaning NKVD Machine gun teams in the rear and General officer firing squads on stand by. The 1v1 rule was ( I think) an surgical way to emulate this, but since it is so apparent and (mis) understandable, the emulation needs to be buried in the calculations.

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Post #: 37

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 2:48:33 AM

tigercub

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The F4 had 150hp more ! top speed was 388mph the F2 did 373mph...the f4 was the fastest climbing fighter in the world at this time! with an initial climb of
4,290fpm the 2 planes only look the same! 99% the same my ASS.

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Post #: 38

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 3:44:56 AM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omat

Hello

When I read about Me 109 F2 and F4 it often it is said that the f2 used the DB 601 N engine and the F2 the DB 601E. Maybe I am wrong.

Omat

quote:

ORIGINAL: lastdingo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omat

Hello

I would like to know if the data of the Me 109 f4 is corrected. Helpless said something there is an issue. The Data for the Me-109 f2 and Me-109 f4 are the same (except arment).

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2834472

In beta v 1.04.39 it is the same.

Omat

These aircraft were 99.9% identical. The only difference was afaik that the MG 151 motor cannon had a 15 mm barrel in F-2 and a 20 mm barrel in F-4. It was quite the same gun; there existed merely two different calibre versions.

15 mm was more effective for good shots, 20 mm was more effective for mediocre pilots.

I have a reference book at home, which I am unable to check right now, but AFAIR, the F-4 had both the upgraded 20 mm cannon (vs 15 mm) and a slightly more powerful engine than the F-2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109_variants#F-0.2C_F-1.2C_F-2

Wiki is like a corn flake packet you never know what u will get...30% of it is just rubbish.

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Post #: 39

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 4:30:10 AM

Q-Ball

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I have come around, and I for one am now in favor of removing the rule. The Red Army has too easy a time of it after '41.

The next version will be interesting; I was worried about the Germans with the reduced forts, but I think they have a late-war chance now for sure, if the 1-1 rule is gone, as well as the other changes. In fact, I think some lesser Soviet players are going to start hitting brick walls and get frustrated.

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Post #: 40

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 5:13:58 AM

Michael T

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From: Queensland, Australia.
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The new changes and the removal of the 1:1 rule will certainly bring the game back towards the Germans. Whether its too far will remain to be seen. My gut feeling is that 130 per Arm factory may be a little low. But the Soviet player is definately going to begin to feel the same stress that the German players have been under all along. Interesting times ahead in the post 1.05 world.

Since day one I have felt my only chance at victory as German was to force a resignation in 41. I am confident now (considering the changes) that with a goodish 41 a win in 42 is possible.

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Post #: 41

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 5:15:26 AM

gradenko2k

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Wouldn't removing the 2:1 rule still cause problems with the Germans taking lots of casualties whenever they retreat?

Or is it ok because A. the amount of casualties is tied to how bad the odds are and B. no 2:1 rule means less attacks all the way across the front and less attacks succeeding, which translates to less German losses overall

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Post #: 42

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 5:52:19 AM

Pipewrench

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I have come around, and I for one am now in favor of removing the rule. The Red Army has too easy a time of it after '41.

The next version will be interesting; I was worried about the Germans with the reduced forts, but I think they have a late-war chance now for sure, if the 1-1 rule is gone, as well as the other changes. In fact, I think some lesser Soviet players are going to start hitting brick walls and get frustrated.

agreed

but lets not throw out the rule totally. I believe it has its place due to the fact that the Russian player must be able to gain victory if played well . Hopefully we should still see the German historical collapse from 43 onward ,all things considered.

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsRussianFront.htm

If it is not to hard to code give the rule to certain generals and have the number of generals that use that rule increase with time. This should go along way to represent the increasing offensive power of the red army and a quasi fort busting capability.

< Message edited by pipewrench -- 9/1/2011 5:54:28 AM >

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Post #: 43

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 7:43:17 AM

Helpless

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quote:

Oh my, I DID touch a soft spot, hm?

Not at all, I don't expose my soft spots here.. they are exposed on tech support.

It was a joke while waiting the compiler making an new exe.. with no 1:1

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Post #: 44

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 10:06:55 AM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless
It was a joke while waiting the compiler making an new exe.. with no 1:1

Now that's radical. That will spice up my 1941 GC, since we've just reached January 1942

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Post #: 45

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 12:27:51 PM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless
It was a joke while waiting the compiler making an new exe.. with no 1:1

Now that's radical. That will spice up my 1941 GC, since we've just reached January 1942

I don't want to distract you, but sven6345789 question just made me wonder about the extra shots defending Axis unit get. If 1:1 -> 2:1 is out, I understand this is also out, right?

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Post #: 46

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 1:01:45 PM

Helpless

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quote:

I don't want to distract you, but sven6345789 question just made me wonder about the extra shots defending Axis unit get. If 1:1 -> 2:1 is out, I understand this is also out, right?

Correct. Lowered morale/experience (should) have much higher effect, not to speak about other criterias.

For example "soviet doctrine" was lowering "range modifier" 50-70%, and hasty attack makes it x15 higher. The lower it is the more chances your element have to shoot.

It is not completely decided in what form all this will be (changed) gone.

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Post #: 47

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 1:10:52 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
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From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

I don't want to distract you, but sven6345789 question just made me wonder about the extra shots defending Axis unit get. If 1:1 -> 2:1 is out, I understand this is also out, right?

Correct. Lowered morale/experience (should) have much higher effect, not to speak about other criterias.

For example "soviet doctrine" was lowering "range modifier" 50-70%, and hasty attack makes it x15 higher. The lower it is the more chances your element have to shoot.

Aha! That certainly explains those hasty assaults were Germans have 100 "damaged" men and the Soviets several thousand "dead".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless
It is not completely decided in what form all this will be (changed) gone.

Now I didn't get it

I understood that the "extra shots by defending Axis" thing is implemented by several different mechanisms like the "range modifier" rigging. So there might still be some mechanisms introduced to "balance out" 1:1 -> 2:1 in effect in 1.05? Or did you mean that "it can be reverted at any time during 1.05 testing"?

Anyways, thank you for your reply, Helpless.

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Post #: 48

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 1:32:50 PM

Helpless

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quote:

Aha! That certainly explains those hasty assaults were Germans have 100 "damaged" men and the Soviets several thousand "dead".

It works both ways there.

quote:

Now I didn't get it I understood that the "extra shots by defending Axis" thing is implemented by several different mechanisms like the "range modifier" rigging. So there might still be some mechanisms introduced to "balance out" 1:1 -> 2:1 in effect in 1.05? Or did you mean that "it can be reverted at any time during 1.05 testing"?

The only thing I can tell - it won't be in the way it is done right now.

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Post #: 49

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 1:40:46 PM

KenchiSulla

Posts: 2948
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

First off, let me set the record straight. Pavel (Helpless) has never supported the Soviet Doctrine rule. I think Gary added it in when Pavel was busy with other things and Pavel never focused on it before release. Once it came up after release, he was always in favor of removing the rule. However, he acknowledged it had play balance implications and couldn't be removed without some thought and additional work on other parts of the game. Gary is the one that continues to feel that there were doctrinal differences that could justify a rule, but Pavel has argued that morale/experience/leader skill and OB accounts for doctrinal differences. Gary has conceded that the public dislike of the rule justified altering it, although without Pavel's arguments there's a greater chance it would have remained unchanged. We have come to a tentative agreement to remove the rule sometime after the first winter, and I expect the change will be in the game before the 1.05 goes public. It will have an impact, but the exact impact is as of yet unknown. Be careful for what you wish for.

Joel, you have an excellent test team, and an excellent crowd (although at times a bit loudmouthed) to playtest it into dust once it comes out.. It will sort itself in the end...

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Post #: 50

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/1/2011 2:17:47 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

Now I didn't get it I understood that the "extra shots by defending Axis" thing is implemented by several different mechanisms like the "range modifier" rigging. So there might still be some mechanisms introduced to "balance out" 1:1 -> 2:1 in effect in 1.05? Or did you mean that "it can be reverted at any time during 1.05 testing"?

The only thing I can tell - it won't be in the way it is done right now.

Fair enough

Again, thank you for your answers.

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Post #: 51

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/2/2011 12:36:52 AM

Farfarer61

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Yeah, never mind that the whole shape of the war from 1942 on is completely out of whack in the game. If we can just get the 505 Hvy Pz Bn and the Me 109 F4 engine number and the 656th Heavy Panzerjaeger Bn fixed we can all sleep soundly again.

The 505 is a war Winner dude :)

Seriously I appreciate the details guys pointing out seemingly minor flaws add they all ad up to a more credible game. So thanks for the Correction and the Laugh.

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Post #: 52

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/2/2011 3:17:56 PM

JocMeister

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From: Sweden
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Will the new detailed combat report make it in time for 1.05? Couldn�t find anything on it in the changelog? :)

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Post #: 53

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/2/2011 3:52:45 PM

marty_01

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Not to change the subject about the 1:1 & 2:1 controversy, but is anything in the works for 1.05 and the Soviet Clickfest Airbase Attack "tactic". Something to rein in the in-game Red air hordes we are seeing appear in late 1941 to early 1941?

I've seen folks talking about invoking house rule, but I personally hate going outside the framework of the game with house rules. I prefer just to play the game and let the game define for me what it's rules are.

Thanks.

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Post #: 54

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/2/2011 6:08:42 PM

gradenko2k

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty_01
is anything in the works for 1.05 and the Soviet Clickfest Airbase Attack "tactic". Something to rein in the in-game Red air hordes we are seeing appear in late 1941 to early 1941?

The big change for that is:
3) New Rule - Air recon will not increase an enemy air base�s detection level above 5.

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Post #: 55

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/2/2011 6:21:06 PM

Farfarer61

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty_01
is anything in the works for 1.05 and the Soviet Clickfest Airbase Attack "tactic". Something to rein in the in-game Red air hordes we are seeing appear in late 1941 to early 1941?

The big change for that is:
3) New Rule - Air recon will not increase an enemy air base�s detection level above 5.

What about Turn 1 ? Will soviet air bases be set to Level 10 for this turn only? Currently one recons them up to 10 top get max bombing damage.

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Post #: 56

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/2/2011 6:48:16 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
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From: Santa Rosa, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Will the new detailed combat report make it in time for 1.05? Couldn�t find anything on it in the changelog? :)

There will be some additional information provided, but the full detail will have to wait for later.

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Post #: 57

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/2/2011 6:49:59 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
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From: Santa Rosa, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty_01

Not to change the subject about the 1:1 & 2:1 controversy, but is anything in the works for 1.05 and the Soviet Clickfest Airbase Attack "tactic". Something to rein in the in-game Red air hordes we are seeing appear in late 1941 to early 1941?

I've seen folks talking about invoking house rule, but I personally hate going outside the framework of the game with house rules. I prefer just to play the game and let the game define for me what it's rules are.

Thanks.

Yes, there have been several air combat changes made recently that should have a big impact on the air base issue. If it were me, I'd limit each side to 10 air base attacks per turn (after turn 1 in 1941).

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Post #: 58

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/2/2011 6:51:09 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
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From: Santa Rosa, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty_01
is anything in the works for 1.05 and the Soviet Clickfest Airbase Attack "tactic". Something to rein in the in-game Red air hordes we are seeing appear in late 1941 to early 1941?

The big change for that is:
3) New Rule - Air recon will not increase an enemy air base�s detection level above 5.

What about Turn 1 ? Will soviet air bases be set to Level 10 for this turn only? Currently one recons them up to 10 top get max bombing damage.

No, max of 5. The air losses on turn 1 have always been a little higher than historical, so this change should move things in the right direction.

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Post #: 59

RE: List of 1.05 update changes? - 9/2/2011 11:15:18 PM

mmarquo

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Back to 1:1 --> 2:1 for a moment; not that the CRT of any other game is the gold standard, but just about every game/simulation allows some element of chance that a low odds attack will sometimes win; at time 1:1 and even 1:2 has a chance of "success." Most attack doctrines require 3:1 for a high level of certain success. I actually really liked that 1:1 could be successful for the Soviets at the expense of higher causalties. If this is changed then what will happen in 1941? As of now, the Soviets can win a few counterattacks in 1941 (historical)...hopefully the new calculations will allow this to still happen a few times. It seems like all of the changes will make life easier for the Axis and harder for the Soviets. Perhaps there needs to be ahigher level of chance during the calculations.

Marquo

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 60