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RE: Fatal Years for 1.03

 
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RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 1:30:50 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		With "reconnaissance" you mean "recognition", don't you?

Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

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Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

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Post #: 571
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 1:35:34 PM   
Chilperic


Posts: 964
Joined: 3/21/2010
Status: offline 		I will just stress this point: FY is designed to be played until the last turn.

I believe we have lost in computer wargaming this point because too many games end more or less quickly when the AI is sinking in the bottom, or because some others, fortunately a few, are designed to be never achieved

Of course, there's PBEM, but we knows all after 50 turns only a few PBEM games are yet active. That's why most games are against AI: safer, faster...

Have you noticed how few are discussions on forum about Victory conditions, except for the real wargames designed to be played until the last turns?

FY has victory conditions based not on the idea Human player will eradicate his AI opponent but will have to earn more VPs than the AI. Especially for the Whites which were the weaker in RL, and which suffer from a part of their real penalties in the game. A Red player will certainly smash his White opponents, but will need to get this result in the same time than in RL, ie around the 1920 Summer.

< Message edited by Chliperic -- 9/3/2011 1:36:58 PM >

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RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 1:37:31 PM   
Chilperic


Posts: 964
Joined: 3/21/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

With "reconnaissance" you mean "recognition", don't you?

Otherwise it doesn't make sense.



Oh yes.

Thanks

In any case, it's always a great pleasure to talk about design. I've my ideas but they have evolved with the years thanks to the discussions like this. After, sure, my own likings will remain the basis of the mod, but they aren't written in stone or the best over. They are just what I like the most in wargaming Needless to say I may be faulty too in their implementation in FY

< Message edited by Chliperic -- 9/3/2011 1:45:06 PM >

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Post #: 573
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 2:45:58 PM   
Sodei

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		I have backed up a couple of turn and tried something else, once again I don't know if the ahistorical path would be different. I still find this extremely difficult simply on a gameplay basis to counter-act the NM bleeding but I didn't get the Archangelsk-Perm axis, maybe that would have helped. Now, my point is that Koltchak's faction don't seem to get enough from is initial military conquest. In a way, no matter how far in one direction I pushed ( except for Moscow as the computer didn't really seem to react to my attack there but I didn't want to achieve victory that way), I would end up on the defensive but without anyway to hold off the Reds attack past a few months. There is no tolerance for a mistake for this faction.

I have a few ideas, some better then others IMO and yet again, maybe they won't fit your view on what you wish this faction look like. They are only there to give gameplay options to a player that choose the historical path with Siberian Whites. First one is to limit the moral bleeding to a minimal value, it could still go down from other factors but would stop at a set value so that a defensive war, a win to the victory point, would be made possible. That way, maybe a Red distraction could give you a chance to counter-attack a weak enemy position etc. My second idea would be to give an event to the SibW that would cost EP and lock for a set number of turn some units in exchange for NM. When it end, it would be repeatable at the same cost. You explained that Koltchak didn't even try to solve is party internal issues, well maybe the player is ready to try it and thus, giving a chance (ahistorical indeed) for a Siberian White victory. The cost in EP and the locking effect for a number of turn would simulate that the faction is working on her internal issues and that there is a limited attention on military affairs. My third idea would be to give military objective to the player each years that, until they are achieved, would drain is NM. This would reflect that the military success gave Koltchak a temporary solidified political status.

These are only rough ideas that maybe some are good  or are all terrible and that you have all the rights in the world to reject. I still think this faction should be hard to play, the effect should be felt and they should pressure the player to act aggressively. That being said, I also believe that the player should have a possibility of winning even if he didn't get all is strategic objective by the early 1919 without weakening the Red Army or boosting the SibW.

Again, I would need to test my game more, having only repeated a few turns to test if I could have a different outcome after 1918 with the advance I had at that time. Maybe Keke is having a different experience with is Siberian White game.

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Post #: 574
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 2:56:22 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		It's December '19, and I like the look of this:






Attachment (1)

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Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

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Post #: 575
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 3:00:19 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Do note that I started that game with, by then, somewhat unbalanced ahistorical option.

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Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

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Post #: 576
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 3:05:13 PM   
Chilperic


Posts: 964
Joined: 3/21/2010
Status: offline 		That's why I've created an unhistorical path for Siberian. In this one, the Sib player gets 2 periods without much of the negative events, one after playing the option, the second after Kolchak's rise to power, to the conditions to have a high NM and some EPs in reserve ( the latter representing political activity to attenuate infighting.

The exact level of NM is yet to be fine tuned for balance. But it gives the desired effect: if you're victorious, you will have sufficient authority to keep internal bitterings under acceptable level. If not, the subfactions will begin to contest your power, like Gadja putsh, Dietrichs resignation as commander in chief a few days before the Omsk loss, the SR agitation after Summer 18...

Thinking at your ideas anyway .

Thanks for the feedback


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Post #: 577
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 4:01:59 PM   
Chilperic


Posts: 964
Joined: 3/21/2010
Status: offline 		Murmansk railroad problem solved. As a reminder, Murmansk railroad to Segezha was broken and needed long months of repair.

So Segheha region will be blocked for a random time at start, simulating the need to repair the rail. Next version soon.

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Post #: 578
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 4:37:23 PM   
Chilperic


Posts: 964
Joined: 3/21/2010
Status: offline 		New version released on my blog ( see my sig). yet named RC even if I'm now sure this version isn't causing CTDs or huge bugs.

What's new?

- portraits from Nikel and Jack54 ( I had overlooked these ones on the AGEOD forum).
- some Red and WH3 units will now cause NM losses when destroyed: Czechs, Cossacks, Elite and Latvian Reds, Red Heavy armored trains, Red heavy artillery ( 152mm).
- The rail between Segezha and Murmansk is now severed at start ( Segezha is then a blocked region). Segezha will come back to normal status randomly , before December 18. yes, at this time,weather should be very cold
- modified some probabilities here and there for balance purpose, the Siberian faction balance being yet a work under progress.

For those playing Siberian, some remarks about Southern White AI performance will be helpful.

Note from Keke's search: the main reason for slow advancement from Murmansk to Segezha (locations in game terms) was destruction of railroads and facilities in the area by a Finnish Red detachment, led by Alexander Wastén on July 1918. The front didn't advance until next spring.

< Message edited by Chliperic -- 9/3/2011 4:40:39 PM >

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RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 5:22:07 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Cheers!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

For those playing Siberian, some remarks about Southern White AI performance will be helpful.


I've seen Wrangel and Denikin in turns besieging Tsaritsyn with no success.

I may not have time to continue playing today, but here is the latest save and backup1 for you to check:

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Chilperic)
Post #: 580
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 5:48:23 PM   
Chilperic


Posts: 964
Joined: 3/21/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Cheers!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

For those playing Siberian, some remarks about Southern White AI performance will be helpful.


I've seen Wrangel and Denikin in turns besieging Tsaritsyn with no success.

I may not have time to continue playing today, but here is the latest save and backup1 for you to check:



Thanks. So, without being stellar, Southern White AI is yet existing in mid-19 and able to represent some menaces to red here and there. Not that bad, considering how weak are Southern Whites positions in June 18. I willcheck in depth to search for improvements.

< Message edited by Chliperic -- 9/3/2011 6:11:25 PM >

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Post #: 581
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 8:11:37 PM   
Sodei

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		I will try once again with the same historical choice initialy. I will divert some of my Murmansk force to Archangelsk and have less troops moving North. Finally, I will try to launch a late 1918 massive assault on Tzarytsin. Also, I will rely a lot less on Conscription RGD to avoid the NM cost. Maybe this will give me a better 1919-20 game.Wish me luck.

Like I said, maybe it's just the way I played that doomed my Siberian adventure, before implanting any new system or doing radical recommendation. Keke, did your NM hold on to you all game long? As I presume you should be winning by now.

EDIT: After looking at Keke's work, I am starting to think more and more that this may be my own fault.

< Message edited by Sodei -- 9/3/2011 8:17:29 PM >

(in reply to Chilperic)
Post #: 582
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 10:40:32 PM   
Chilperic


Posts: 964
Joined: 3/21/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sodei

I will try once again with the same historical choice initialy. I will divert some of my Murmansk force to Archangelsk and have less troops moving North. Finally, I will try to launch a late 1918 massive assault on Tzarytsin. Also, I will rely a lot less on Conscription RGD to avoid the NM cost. Maybe this will give me a better 1919-20 game.Wish me luck.

Like I said, maybe it's just the way I played that doomed my Siberian adventure, before implanting any new system or doing radical recommendation. Keke, did your NM hold on to you all game long? As I presume you should be winning by now.

EDIT: After looking at Keke's work, I am starting to think more and more that this may be my own fault.



Maybe yes, maybe no. I've needed some months to fine tune Red and Southern Whites balance. I guess some will yet be necessary to Siberian Whites. If several different strategies don't succeed, that will be due to balance problem.

Anyway, the Red AI isn't a pushover Believe me or not but 10 months ago Iw asn't expecting AI would be able to face war on several fronts without major troubles...

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Post #: 583
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/3/2011 11:32:17 PM   
Chilperic


Posts: 964
Joined: 3/21/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Cheers!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

For those playing Siberian, some remarks about Southern White AI performance will be helpful.


I've seen Wrangel and Denikin in turns besieging Tsaritsyn with no success.

I may not have time to continue playing today, but here is the latest save and backup1 for you to check:



Other interesting points: Poland is approaching Kiev Kiev is under Red control

Southern Whites havedone an average game, with 103 NM in december 19. Not great, but once again, not that bad for an AI which has faced certainly in 1918 a more larger Red force than in reality ( I noticed Ekaterinodar was yet Red in december 18). They have since recovered;

You're going certainly to win in 1920 with siberians; I persist to think unhistorical path was slighty too easy. Then Murmansk front was too active. But I don't think it has been so simple to repulse Red AI.

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Post #: 584
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 2:04:32 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Is it possible to mod the weather? I remember someone saying that there were practically no winter blizzard turns. By coincidence I had a blizzard turn just then in one of my games, and reported that the latest patch may have changed things. Alas, I've seen no blizzard turns since then, so there's definitely room for a change...

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

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Post #: 585
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 2:18:09 PM   
Chilperic


Posts: 964
Joined: 3/21/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Is it possible to mod the weather? I remember someone saying that there were practically no winter blizzard turns. By coincidence I had a blizzard turn just then in one of my games, and reported that the latest patch may have changed things. Alas, I've seen no blizzard turns since then, so there's definitely room for a change...



yes. I'm waiting to see results of such changes for WIA in the official forum, having no time for now for working on this, which is a very complex one too.

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RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 3:33:36 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Is it possible to mod the weather? I remember someone saying that there were practically no winter blizzard turns. By coincidence I had a blizzard turn just then in one of my games, and reported that the latest patch may have changed things. Alas, I've seen no blizzard turns since then, so there's definitely room for a change...



yes. I'm waiting to see results of such changes for WIA in the official forum, having no time for now for working on this, which is a very complex one too.


Is it that complex though if there are no changes to the climate zones? Looking at the Weathers folder, one would think that only setting a higher value (probability) for very harsh weather (for each weather pattern and each winter month) would do the trick. If it is that simple, I could do it!

< Message edited by Keke -- 9/4/2011 3:35:47 PM >

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Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Chilperic)
Post #: 587
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 3:37:17 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		And if it was that simple, I would change the value from 5 to 10, and 10 to 20 (while adjusting other values accordingly) when applicable.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

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Post #: 588
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 3:38:09 PM   
Chilperic


Posts: 964
Joined: 3/21/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Is it possible to mod the weather? I remember someone saying that there were practically no winter blizzard turns. By coincidence I had a blizzard turn just then in one of my games, and reported that the latest patch may have changed things. Alas, I've seen no blizzard turns since then, so there's definitely room for a change...



yes. I'm waiting to see results of such changes for WIA in the official forum, having no time for now for working on this, which is a very complex one too.


Is it that complex though if there are no changes to the climate zones? Looking at the Weathers folder, one would think that only setting a higher value (probability) for very harsh weather (for each weather pattern and each winter month) would the trick. If it is that simple, I could do it!



You could try indeed. Moreover, AGEOD has simplified the files: each terrain is now low, high or water defined and the weather matrix isn't anymore by terrain type.

What I'm waiting is evaluation of results from these changes. I've no clue about .exe computation about Weather and the right percentages to enter. So I would need time to test...If you have it, let's go

< Message edited by Chliperic -- 9/4/2011 3:45:31 PM >

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Post #: 589
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 3:41:18 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Is it possible to mod the weather? I remember someone saying that there were practically no winter blizzard turns. By coincidence I had a blizzard turn just then in one of my games, and reported that the latest patch may have changed things. Alas, I've seen no blizzard turns since then, so there's definitely room for a change...



yes. I'm waiting to see results of such changes for WIA in the official forum, having no time for now for working on this, which is a very complex one too.


Is it that complex though if there are no changes to the climate zones? Looking at the Weathers folder, one would think that only setting a higher value (probability) for very harsh weather (for each weather pattern and each winter month) would the trick. If it is that simple, I could do it!



You could try indeed. Moreover, AGEOD has simplified the files: each terrain is now low, high or water defined and the weather matrix isn't anymore by terrain type.

What I'm waiting is too evaluate if changes would work well. I've no clue about .exe computation about Weather and the right percentages to enter. So I would need time to test...If you have it, let's go



Great! I'll do it, and let you know the results.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Chilperic)
Post #: 590
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 4:08:30 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		FYI, where a value for Very Harsh Weather value is set, I'll raise it by 5, and then decrease either Harsh Weather value or, if it is low already, the weather type that the has highest value, by 5.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to JJKettunen)
Post #: 591
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 5:31:40 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		From early December to late December (1919) with modded weather: apart from taigas and mountains no very harsh weather anywhere. At least the change has not been too dramatic.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

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Post #: 592
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 8:04:17 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Late February, finally blizzard! - but only in regions with taiga. I think I have to study the values more carefully.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to JJKettunen)
Post #: 593
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 9:49:09 PM   
Sodei

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		I have started anew with those SibW and I jsut wanted to clarify something. In the beginning you, as the player, will take Ekaterinbur. Defending the city is a certain general with one unit of elite infantry and one heavy armored train. I killed the elite infantry but the train ran away(?) in a unknowned direction, maybe a flying train. Are the soviet's elite soldier suppose to give NM fluctuation in battle or are those limited to what you specified earlier ( leaders and heavy artilleries,etc.)? Also a quick question, how does the control of the Archangelsk-Perm axe work, do I need 100% military control or only 51% or what number? Thank a you!


EDIT: BTW, I will keep my eyes open for any form of blizzard, oddities in Russia if I am correct.

(in reply to JJKettunen)
Post #: 594
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 9:51:21 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		OK, looking at the data, February value for Subarctic weather zone in high areas (including taiga) was 65 (I had raised it by 5). It was even higher for December and January (75) when no blizzard happened (IIRC). I think the lesson here is that pretty high values have to be used to get any blizzard effects. I'll prepare a new weather set where the probability for blizzard in winter months is much higher in certain weather zones.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to JJKettunen)
Post #: 595
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 10:15:11 PM   
Chilperic


Posts: 964
Joined: 3/21/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

OK, looking at the data, February value for Subarctic weather zone in high areas (including taiga) was 65 (I had raised it by 5). It was even higher for December and January (75) when no blizzard happened (IIRC). I think the lesson here is that pretty high values have to be used to get any blizzard effects. I'll prepare a new weather set where the probability for blizzard in winter months is much higher in certain weather zones.



Great

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Post #: 596
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/4/2011 11:50:09 PM   
Sodei

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Moron me didn't do the proper update . Ignore my comment on the NM part b ut I still would like to know how the Military Control of the North work for the axe. Thank a you.

EDIT: I think there is still a visual bug after your modification on the Komuch units being WHI tagged. Some of them don't have there unit portait, maybe because of the WH2 and WHI tags being change?. Anyway, they still fight, that's the most important :)

< Message edited by Sodei -- 9/5/2011 12:57:31 AM >

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Post #: 597
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/5/2011 1:01:02 AM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		It should be MC of over 50%.

In my game NM plummeted after 1919 for no obvious reason (other than the secret effects of the unhistorical path...), and now, on early June 1920 it is 95. That and a succesful Red counterattack at Moscow changed my plans dramatically: it means a final, concentrated attack on Tsaritsyn and delaying action everywhere else.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Sodei)
Post #: 598
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/5/2011 1:15:16 AM   
Sodei

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		I had the same but one year before, it crippled my capacity to fight even if I had the initiative. Eventually, the cheer number of the Reds coupled with there NM pushed me all the way back. I am trying a no-RGD/historical path and will try to counter that NM fall. It is a obvious but highly unhistorical choice to transport your troops from Murmansk to Archangelsk now that the front is blockaded. Maybe something must be done about it... Chilpreic will know best. It those give you some sort of movement capacity early on though.

EDIT: BTW, can you tell me the plus vs minus of going the ahistorical path for the SibW Keke, thank a you in advance.

EDIT2: I now have a game with only 2 actives 3-star army leaders ( The Czech guy died)Yet I cannot promote Miller...

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Sodei -- 9/5/2011 1:21:19 AM >

(in reply to JJKettunen)
Post #: 599
RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 - 9/5/2011 1:30:10 AM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sodei

EDIT: BTW, can you tell me the plus vs minus of going the ahistorical path for the SibW Keke, thank a you in advance.


It has been made more tough after I started my game, but the obvious advantage is that the Checks stay in the game far longer.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Sodei)
Post #: 600
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