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AI Efficiency - 9/6/2011 1:45:20 AM   
Micaelzord

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 9/6/2011
Status: offline 		Hello boys!


iīd like to give some thoughts about the AI in distant worlds.

Although i just saw an major update do Shakturi expansion, focused on AI, Iīd still like to give some opinions about the AI in Distant worlds.


Generally, itīs not that chalenging.

For example, for the giant ships you can make by increasing ship size limit using tech.

You can just make a giant ship, Fully loaded with the most powerfull weapons, that will rape any station and ship that the AI has.

Im talking about really obscene firepower. And the wrong thing about this, is that if you do that, the A.I will not counter balance with equally strong ships or fleets, making the game easily beat able.


I think itīs a real challenge to make an AI which is perfect for everyone, and fun for everyone. but not even the stronger empires posed a real treat against me, they where all easily killed by my designed ships or even regular ones. No real challenge.


So what are the opinions of you folks, regarding the general AI of Distant Worlds?

Do you think thereīs some need of AI functionality upgrades?


Thanks in advance, and sorry for giant post...(not much of a forum user).
Post #: 1
RE: AI Efficiency - 9/6/2011 1:54:53 AM   
Micaelzord

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 9/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

And I thought I overdid it with 1000 size cap ships.

The AI, not being able to match those massive designs becomes far too easy when you build ships that big. And unless we get a way to put in our own ship designs as templates for the AI, building anything too big is just overkill and puts the game into super easy mode.




Just found out someone that has the same opinion.

(in reply to Micaelzord)
Post #: 2
RE: AI Efficiency - 9/6/2011 4:05:45 AM   
Igard


Posts: 2282
Joined: 3/29/2010
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Hi, Micaelzord and welcome to the forums.

We're all in agreement on this one. When playing the game on normal settings, on a level playing field with the AI, it's too easy. Any game suffers from this after the player gets used to the AI behaviour.

Shark7's suggestion for making each race use a set of prebuilt designs, specific to their race, would help alot. It would also have useful ramifications for modding.


< Message edited by Igard -- 9/6/2011 4:06:07 AM >

_____________________________

The Picard Era for Distant Worlds

Igard's Romulan Stormbird

(in reply to Micaelzord)
Post #: 3
RE: AI Efficiency - 9/6/2011 4:34:07 AM   
Micaelzord

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 9/6/2011
Status: offline 		Thanks for the welcome. :)

Anyway,even on "Chaos", itīs still too easy.

the AI needs some revamp, and the issue is not only "ship template" related. the AI needs some major tweaking, for a more fun "interaction".

the reason im complaining so much, is because this game ROCKS. the idea is Marvelous, this game as a huge potential, but for a more mainstream quality, at least the AI could be more challenging, to keep the players more interested in the game. Long term players.

Usually, you can only say you "beated" a strategy game, untill you beated the computer on hardest settings, with ease and efficiency..the game misses itīs point when itīs too easy.



< Message edited by Micaelzord -- 9/6/2011 4:44:13 AM >

(in reply to Igard)
Post #: 4
RE: AI Efficiency - 9/6/2011 8:17:58 AM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		Hi Micaelzord and welcome to the community. We're in full agreement on this one as well. Furthermore, as JT pointed out the game is even easier on chaos as the various AI empires are busy destroying each other and we end up picking up the pieces.

So yes, the AI definitly needs more love (it's a rare game that has a perfect AI) to make this awesome game a true classic.

Good to have you onboard.

_____________________________

...Igniting stellar cores....Recharging reactors...Recalibrating hyperdrives....

(in reply to Micaelzord)
Post #: 5
RE: AI Efficiency - 9/6/2011 2:50:54 PM   
Micaelzord

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 9/6/2011
Status: offline 		Agreed.

So whatīs the developer opinion and thoughts about that matter?

Is there any possibility they could hear our call and make the revamp to turn the game into a classic?



(in reply to Data)
Post #: 6
RE: AI Efficiency - 9/6/2011 3:27:23 PM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		Elliot knows about this, he and Matrix keep track of our wishlists (the normal one and the modders one) so adding your vote for this will count.

_____________________________

...Igniting stellar cores....Recharging reactors...Recalibrating hyperdrives....

(in reply to Micaelzord)
Post #: 7
RE: AI Efficiency - 9/24/2011 10:45:32 AM   
inf666

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 7/10/2010
Status: offline 		Hello everyone,

I first apologize for my english since it is not my native language.

I have been playing distant worlds since the beginning and agree fully to what has been said in this thread.
The AI is definately subpar. I hardly ever play my games to the end because it is so easy to reach a state where you can destroy any race at will.
I am currently at the point where I do not play at all but check the DW page every now and then in the hopes of finding an AI-patch.

What needs to be done to make the game more challenging:

Basic stuff:
- Reduce technology selling prices significantly. Gamebreaker.
- Increase ship maintenance (or introduce a configuration slider 1-10x).
- Increase ship travel speed (or introduce a configuration slider 1-10x) or create more space between planets (= longer traveling).
- Increase the time that is needed to invade a planet. Enough for you to get backup troops in time to the planet to save it.
- Make it hard to scout deep into enemy territory.

Most important: AI strategy needs a general overhaul:
- Offensive military races should always try to scout their opponents and create an outperforming fleet (performance is usually = technology x shipvolume x crew quality).
- Defensive military races should have a strong defensive structure to offset their smaller fleet. Maybe give them station boosting attributes (station has 50% more hp and damage)
- Non military races should look for protection by a military race (--> alliances)
- Make AIs try to counter major powers by creating alliances. In most cases once I have taken over one or two neighbours I am too big to fail. AIs should try to turn the enemies of its worst enemies into friends and then execute joint operations.
- Better AI decision making. I know it is hard to create a good strategy algorithm for AIs. It might be a good idea to give modders the ability to make strategy scripts for the AIs. This way someone somewhere might come up with something good.

Here is my amateurish try for a general strategy algorithm:

Every AI has a strategical awareness of the galaxy and acts depending on it. Every time new information (scouting, diplomacy) is available the strategical view of the galaxy is updated.
Every location (planets, systems, quadrants) has three ratings: risk (depends on defence structure and distance to next opponent location), importance to owner (population, industry, infrastructure), reward (possible taxes, strategic location, location bonuses, importance to owner)
Fleets have a power rating that is multiplied by a modifier (0-1 depending on time defenders fleet needs to reach location) and then added / subtracted to the risk rating of a location.
By looking at the risks of owned locations and the risks of opponent locations a general empire security rating can be generated.

AIs have hardcoded strategical and tactical moves. Every move is like a mathematical modifier for the location / fleet / security ratings and has a certain probable outcome. AIs will try to create a master plan of ideal moves to minimize all location risks and maximize empire security. Reward and location importance are used as priority modifiers for the moves.

Moves could be: location raid, location blockade, location defence, destroy opposing fleet, distract opposing fleet to location x, call alliance members to initiate operations against opponent, send fleet to location x, diplomacy: increase / decrease relations, abort move in execution
It would become a huge number crunching machine. AIs apply up to x moves, calculate the outcome and check if the empire security rating has improved. This is done repeatedly until an optimum move has been found. It is then executed.

Obviously I have no idea if this is a good idea or where it would lead to but something has to be done to make the AIs more lethal and aware. If I make a mistake it should be used against me. After all if an AI has a shortcoming, I definately WILL exploit it.

(in reply to Data)
Post #: 8
RE: AI Efficiency - 10/21/2011 1:55:09 AM   
MartialDoctor


Posts: 388
Joined: 3/7/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Micaelzord

Thanks for the welcome. :)

Anyway,even on "Chaos", itīs still too easy.

the AI needs some revamp, and the issue is not only "ship template" related. the AI needs some major tweaking, for a more fun "interaction".

the reason im complaining so much, is because this game ROCKS. the idea is Marvelous, this game as a huge potential, but for a more mainstream quality, at least the AI could be more challenging, to keep the players more interested in the game. Long term players.

Usually, you can only say you "beated" a strategy game, untill you beated the computer on hardest settings, with ease and efficiency..the game misses itīs point when itīs too easy.




Until the expansion comes out, with difficulty settings and AI improvements, you have to do more tweaking to make the game difficulty harder. You can still make it more challenging by making larger, and higher tech leveled, races in the galaxy and making your empire smaller. It actually is a bit of a pain to make a fairly challenging match as is, but it can be done. I typically put my settings on the lowest (smallest size and lowest tech) and even cramp my home system a bit. Make some medium / large sized empires near yourself and some huge ones further away. Adjust it according to your skill level... the key is making close empires large enough to be a challenge but not too large that they will just completely wreck you in the beginning.

Messing with the AI aggression doesn't make the game that much more challenging from what I've seen - it makes it more boring imo (since races want to fight more and negotiate less, which doesn't make the challenge any higher necessarily).

< Message edited by MartialDoctor -- 10/21/2011 1:57:14 AM >

(in reply to Micaelzord)
Post #: 9
RE: AI Efficiency - 10/21/2011 7:43:53 AM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline
quote:

Messing with the AI aggression doesn't make the game that much more challenging from what I've seen - it makes it more boring imo (since races want to fight more and negotiate less, which doesn't make the challenge any higher necessarily).


Yap, they tend to fight each other more leaving you in a better position to just weaken and eliminate them....they should focus more on us

_____________________________

...Igniting stellar cores....Recharging reactors...Recalibrating hyperdrives....

(in reply to MartialDoctor)
Post #: 10
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