Reinforcements

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Reinforcements

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Reinforcements - 10/23/2002 10:59:48 AM

Jeremy Pritchard

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From: Ontario Canada
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I would like to see reinforcements based on triggers instead of based on time (in regards to Land Units, not ships as their time of arrival is fixed, but possibly air groups). Should the Japanese fair worse then they historically did, should they have to wait until 1944 before IJA units are freed to serve as garrisons for the Pacific?

The main reason that many divisions were sent to Pacific Islands was not based on a planned timeline, but based on the fact that the outer perimeter was breaking, and key bases inside the perimeter needed defending.

This is mainly to help the AI, as AI's tend to break down when unhistoric things are done (like invading the Marshall Islands in 1942).

Historically, when the barrier was broken, they brought back many IJA units from China, Manchuria, Home Islands and sent in fresh replacement units (or upgraded many of their regional Indepenedent Mixed Brigades to Divisions). Had the barrier not have been broken until 1945, I really doubt that the IJA would have stripped their Manchuria or Chinese fronts to garrison Islands that were under no threat. The contrary is also probable. Had the Central Pacific been threatend, it makes no sense in keeping all of your units in China/Manchuria if you will lose the entire war in the Pacific.

Certain units would appear on a timeline (i.e., the 4 IMB's that garrisoned the Philippines, which later became 100 series Divisions, would have appeared no matter what was happening in any theatre). Most of the Allied units (barring possibly emergency units in India/United States due to an 'invasion' of whatever sort) should appear on a timeline, since they held the initiative and tended to raise as many troops as best as they could. However, I feel that most of the IJA fighting formations should appear on triggers (i.e., should Tarawa be taken, X many turns later you will get Y and Z formations to defend bases A and B).

Post #: 1

- 10/23/2002 11:55:05 AM

madflava13

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Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
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I like your idea... It provides a bit of flexibility to the AI that often is lacking in games like this. I don't have a shred of programming experience, so I don't know how difficult this is to set up...

However, setting a couple big ones (i.e. release China units if Kwajalein or Shortland Is. fall) would be a nice way to avoid "AI vapor lock". (You know, how the AI used to disappear in Pacwar once you bloodied its nose a bit...)

I don't know what limits or triggers would be the best, but I'm sure we'll have a good discussion on it... hehe.

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to Jeremy Pritchard)

Post #: 2

- 10/23/2002 1:01:23 PM

pasternakski

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Yep, Jeremy, I think that this would have been the number one final improvement on the PW system, and is the best suggestion I have heard yet for improvement of the now-emerging WITP (based on UV) engine.

This solves, in an elegantly simple way, the whole Chinese theater problem. The units committed to that theater have to stay put until such time as events warrant or require their redeployment.

Shoot. How come nobody put it in these terms before?

Yer right on it, Constable Pritchard, I'd stand ye a four of rum hot if ey jest had me pennies in a row, ya know...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Jeremy Pritchard)

Post #: 3

- 10/23/2002 9:17:48 PM

Jeremy Pritchard

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From: Ontario Canada
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Pacific War had a few small triggers based on territory occupation instead of based on a timeline. There were 6 IJA Divisions that would be immediately placed on certain Pacific Islands if on a certain date a check was failed (or passed, depends on your point of view), then it would then deploy these divisions (which were slated as reinforcements) on specific Islands (mainly the Marianas). It was a limited trigger, and rarely went into place, but I managed to increase the chance of it happening for PacWar 3.2.

While I am not a programmer, so I cannot truely say wether or not it will be difficult to implement, I do feel that it is not something that would appear to be overly difficult. The main difficult part of the triggers, is to determine how, where, when and what they will do. Do you just put triggers on specific bases? Then what happens if those bases are not invaded, but others? Will the forces sent in 1942 be the same as those in 1944? Could they be the same? Could the Japanese have afforded as much, could they possibly have sent more?

The complicated part comes to determining change of these triggers over time. Would you get exactly the same troops as in 1944 should the invasion actually start in 1942? Do we just follow historic deployment? What happens if the Human player starts invading the East Indies? How can we determine adequate reinforcement of that theatre if it is just a decoy to draw away forces from the Central Pacific? Should this be included as a real tactic, as it was used?

It does raise a lot of questions and possibilities, and problems. However, I do feel that it will help any AI to give it the tools to fight the Human player, especially since the Human will probably be ahead of schedule. It will also help PBEM games, as possibly going for an early attack before your reserves are deployed might be a mistake, as your opponent will get many forces released to meet this new threat.

Although this is primarily done for the benefit of the Japanese, I do feel that it can also be done for the US West Coast, Australia and India. Should these be invaded (or bases near them fall, like Hawaii, Ceylon, or Port Moresby) then reinforcements should be sent in (from Middle East, US Central Command). I sort of feel that this is the most realistic way in having reinforcements, as relying too much on the timeline will result in very unhistoric attacks pay off too much. Why wouldn't the Japanese player hesitate to invade the continental US if they know that it will only recieve very low replacements and reinforcements?

(in reply to Jeremy Pritchard)

Post #: 4

- 10/23/2002 9:34:14 PM

madflava13

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From: Alexandria, VA
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I agree 100%... As they say, the devil is in the details. I think the US/Allies should have this function provided as you stated. Think of how many naval assets were in the Atlantic for the duration of the war - if Japan took over Oahu or Alaska, you can bet those ships would have been on their way through the Panama Canal in no time, not to mention land and air assets. (8th AF, 101st Abn, etc...)

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to Jeremy Pritchard)

Post #: 5

- 10/24/2002 4:27:59 AM

TIMJOT

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I agree whole heartedly on triggers. Im not a programer either, but I would think it wouldnt be too difficult. TOAW does it quite nicely with its event engine. For those who are unfamiliiar with that game; reinforcements can be triggered by the opposeing player occupying specified hexes or even zone of hexes. It can have 100% to 0% chance of being triggered. It can also be cumalitive. So you can have the chance certain reinforcements increase for every hex(base) captured up the Solomons islands chain for example. Triggers can cancell and or reset other triggers in a way to deal with various different strategies an opponent may try. I said it before, but an event engine would go a long way to make what looks like to be a superb game into a truely a magnificent one.

(in reply to Jeremy Pritchard)

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- 10/24/2002 7:51:33 AM

madflava13

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From: Alexandria, VA
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TIMJOT - I totally forgot about TOAW... I haven't played that in a year or two... Maybe I'll have to go dust off my copy. That engine did work well, and your example of the Solomons was good.. That can apply anywhere (ie lose the Gilberts as Japan, 15% chance of a release, lose Truk, 45%, Marianas 85%... And so forth...)

The question now, on the Japanese side, is whether policy implications would get in the way. China was viewed as a territory of Japan and victory there was pretty vital in the minds of the high staff. Would they really release large numbers of troops and aircraft before it was too late to do any good? Thoughts?

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to Jeremy Pritchard)

Post #: 7

- 10/24/2002 8:04:21 AM

Jeremy Pritchard

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From: Ontario Canada
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One can judge the Japanese response as to their response when the line was cracked in late 1943. After Guadalcanal fell 3 Divisions were sent to the Solomans/New Britain. Almost overnight large numbers of troops were deployed to the Central and South Pacific. 3 Divisions to New Guinea. 2 Divisions to the Marianas. 1 Division to the Carolinas. Later, in early 1944 more troops were sent out. 3 more Divisions to Western New Guinea, and massive numbers of troops were sent and slated to the Philippines.

Had this happened in 1942, I am pretty sure that an equivalent number of troops could be released, as the situation in China/Manchuria was not that different in 1943/44. It was possibly even better during this period of time, as Russia was still under critical attack at Stalingrad, and the fears of a Russian attack were pretty low.

In fact, a lot of the IMB's (Independent Mixed Brigades) were officially formed in 1944, but the troops were deployed as early as 1942, but were officially slated as detachments from other formations. Most units were sent to their base of operations a few months before they were actually invaded or bypassed. I think that a long term activation would be better then an immediate one (for example, should the Marshall Islands fall, X many days/weeks later you get A Division for base 1, Y many days/weeks you get B Division for base 2, etc...). Something that sets the process in motion, not necessarily to do it piecemeil (i.e., should base X fall you get A Division for base 1, but that is it, and have to wait for base 1 to fall before you get B Division for base 2). This would probably also be easier to implement as well.

The Japanese did know that a surrender in the Pacific meant a surrender in China. While they could not necessarily release divisions from China for an offensive, it could do it to try and stem an enemy breakthrough.

(in reply to Jeremy Pritchard)

Post #: 8