janh
Posts: 1216
Joined: 6/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pelton
So "fixing" the Lvov pocket because your lack of a good counter to me is no reason to trash 1.05. ... You might want to consider that someone esle tactics were better then yours.
...
German player does something non historical it must be nerfed.
Russian player does something non historical and its amazing.
Get off the Russian fanboy wagon and be balanced and open minded. Lol even I am open minded to nerfing HQ build-ups ect, but this must be coupled with nerfs in other areas to keep game balance.
1,05 balances the game, any moron can see nerfing Lvov will 100% put 1.05 in the ****ter and unbalance game.
This hole idea is stupid and a personal pet project.
(1.) The Lvov pocket has not tactics -- at least not for the Soviet side, it can never counter it, it is basically a free gift. So the tactics of the German player are not better, because there are non to compare to. Using the Klydon Opening only means (mis-)using a shortcoming in the game design, the turn length of the I-Go-U-Go system, that prevents reactions during "a full 7 days of operations". The Soviet side can have some tactics later to make the pocket last as long as possible and bind German units, but that is after the damage is done at no cost.
Imagine there were a comparable situation later in the game, maybe like a Soviet Stalingrad opening, where you cannot counter anything as German as see you forces cut off without a chance -- I am sure you'd be against that?
(2.) The general opinion, if my general impression from the posts above is right, that the Lvov pocket should not be impossible. But there should be some risk to it, or some way for the Russian player to at least have the feeling that the German side had to fight for it, or that he can delay it. In the present form, it feels purely ahistorical since is executed against the strongest of the 3 Soviet Fronts. Within 7 days they would have thrown something in the German way, even if it would only have ended as a speed bump.
The Lvov pocket is nice to have, but not if it comes without friction or risk. The chance of creating such a speed bump is lacking. For you info: I am not a Soviet Fanboy. Yet even I don't like the implausible, ashistorical taste. If there are balance issues later for AGS, then one should carefully elucidate the reasons for those. There may well be rational reasons why the progress of AGS historically just was possible due to mistakes made by the Russians, or certain bold moves by the Germans, that would have to be repeated by the players in game (see post above) -- which is unlikely with hindsight in your hand. In which case perhaps some artificial rules could be conceived to force this, like disallowing factory evac for the initial weeks, as suggested above. But then, you'd also open the way for introducing "Feste Plätze" rules to make sure you'll see Germans getting pocketed in 43-45, for sake of balance and historical accuracy.
Anyway, introducing one wrong skew at the beginning to fix the balance for the later part in the South, is likely to cause issues when trying to balance something else later, which then might need to be fixed again with something very artificial, until at some point everything is in balance, but has no longer to do with the War in Russia. In contrast to systematically getting things right for the right reason.
(3.) The German and Soviet sides both have a huge freedom in this game, the only difference being the withdrawal/unit formation/production features, which are another discussion. I don't think the goal is to give any side more chance to win, as you imply, whether by keeping something in game or adding anything that would favor one side. The goal of this discussion is to first above all get it right, while keeping some game balance.
Pelton, I don't think you need to be so nervous about this... The devs will get it right, it just may need time and a few more AARs to show them where the trend is going with the present changes. Perhaps even a few AARs that intentionally do not take the easy bait of the Lvov pocket to figure out whether it is truly needed, or whether players like PeeDeeAitch may be right that even more harm can be done without it.
< Message edited by janh -- 9/25/2011 12:22:30 PM >
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Printable Version
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 
Have you played chess? There's no gambit at all in this Lvov thing: you don't sacrifice anything. The only sacrifice... er, the Soviet Southwestern Front... 
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