RE: The Stone and the Waves

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Stone and the Waves

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RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/25/2011 9:57:21 PM

Nemo121

Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline

I'm with Canoerebel on this. Greyjoy is still learning. Right now his biggest issues are:
1. Seeing every little setback as proof of some trap Rader set for him ( leading him to over-evaluate Rader and create a sort of AE inferiority complex ).
2. the need to avoid doing something stupid which will cripple him for 18 months.

Right now Greyjoy hasn't carried out a single proper large-scale contested amphibious assault. When he does he'll probably make lots of mistakes and lose more than he should. He also doesn't have experience with CV battles etc etc. He can, playing within his "strengths" continue to gain advantage. If he tries stuff he doesn't yet know and understand he is likely to be badly beaten.

He needs to try operations commensurate with his current ability level. A lot of advice here is ignorning that.

Edit: I read witpqs' post which crossed mine. We're very much on the same track. This isn't the time to sit back doing nothing but neither is it the time to carry out operations which he simply has no experience in. It is the time to carry out operations within his level of capabilities which move things forward.

The USMC invaded a VERY peripheral base when they wanted to test out their amphibious doctrine ( Tarawa etc ). They didn't start it out by testing their doctrine vs the Marianas.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 9/25/2011 10:06:55 PM >

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2611

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/25/2011 10:01:14 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

Generally I agree with that, CR, but with a couple of adjustments. It is late '43 (IIRC) so GJ has got to have a lot of stuff moving (not necessarily hitting beaches everywhere). The time to cover large distances in this game is substantial. That means he has to have at least hig-level rough plans that tell him where stuff needs to be staging.

Second, GJ needs experience in amphib/combined ops. I recommend getting that with some limited ops under limited risk. His navies did take a beating earlier, so limiting the risk in the learning ops will reduce the impact on his build-up of any losses he incurs.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2612

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/25/2011 10:02:22 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

My post crossed with Nemo's but I think we are on the same track.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 2613

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/25/2011 10:15:55 PM

paulkenny

Posts: 178
Joined: 5/7/2003
Status: offline

Im not advocating a raid on Truk or anything so drastic. USE the mobility of his carriers. If Rader even sees a large CV task force to his left flank he will be hesitant to move south, if he gets aggressive smash him. Making him hesitant about bringing KB into the fight for the Solomons is a big win for GJ. So even a non-engagement is a win for him. THe only possible downside is losing carriers without getting at the KB and I dont see that as a realistic possibility given the aircraft losses to the Japs. Their experience HAS to be down compared to the Allies. His land based fighters dont have the legs to provide escort the whole way to the Allied fleet.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 2614

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/25/2011 10:40:03 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

That's a good idea, GreyJoy.� Pick out some pretty safe little IJ island and get some practice setting up and successfully completing an amphibious operation against an enemy-held atoll or island.� Even if it turns out to be lightly garrisoned, you'll learn alot, mainly because the whole excericise will have you asking questions and getting answers about the thousand little things involved in getting an invasion right.

(in reply to paulkenny)

Post #: 2615

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/25/2011 10:48:14 PM

Nemo121

Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline

quote:

THe only possible downside is losing carriers without getting at the KB and I dont see that as a realistic possibility given the aircraft losses to the Japs.

Well, if this is the only realistic downside you see it explains why you'd be so gung-ho to go ahead. There are many, many more downsides.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2616

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/25/2011 11:27:06 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

Paul, i see your point and i agree that if i keep my CVs moving i may be able to get a 1 vs 1 carrier battle only (meaning without LBAs)...but i also have 2 very strong points that advocate against this vision:

1- CV fighters are badly needed in the Solomons. Against those numbers of LBA (1300 fighters + 400 bombers) i desperately need those 36x6 Hellcats, and i need them on Lunga, Tulagi or Ndeni, not on CVs that are kept far away from the front. I simply don't have enough fighters to substitute them.

2- I don't have enough escort in order to stay below the max-a/c limits. With 9 CVs + 3 CVLs and 10 CVEs i'd need something like 6/7 Air TFs....and each of those TF needs 8 DDs at least, some CAs and possibly the modern BBs....well, as you know i have my surface combat ships engaged in a mortal dance at TLT and they are foundamental in order to keep his own BBs honest.

I'm not saying i won't use my CVs at all.
I'm getting ready. I'm waiting for my CVs at PH to join the others in SOPAC. Then we'll be ready. All my troops are ready, my ships almost.

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 2617

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/25/2011 11:29:31 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

quote:

THe only possible downside is losing carriers without getting at the KB and I dont see that as a realistic possibility given the aircraft losses to the Japs.

Well, if this is the only realistic downside you see it explains why you'd be so gung-ho to go ahead. There are many, many more downsides.

quote:

THe o

Spot on, I would say. Rader had already admitted that he is cutting back other production to the bare bones so that he can focus on producing air frames. Don't underestimate the numbers that he can produce in scen #2. It is amazing. While I suspect his pilot quality is dropping-don't think for a minute that he is running out of aircraft. He is not.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 2618

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 12:03:00 AM

Nemo121

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Joined: 2/6/2004
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And if you read the AAR carefully and not just on the surface you'll see that he has relatively spared his actual carrier-based air. The effectiveness of KB will be greater than many here suspect.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 2619

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 12:50:01 AM

bigred

Posts: 3599
Joined: 12/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Nemo121:
The USMC invaded a VERY peripheral base when they wanted to test out their amphibious doctrine ( Tarawa etc ). They didn't start it out by testing their doctrine vs the Marianas.

Tarawa occurred nov43.� When compared to history GJ still has time to develop his skills. I myself do wonder -where would I want to be sitting at the end of 44, given this situation.
I speak w/ a view of similar skill level to GJ.

< Message edited by bigred -- 9/27/2011 2:06:57 AM >

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 2620

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 9:32:48 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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Aug 11-12, 13-14� 1943

So while the KB moves back towards Kwalajein, our SCTF (CA Australia, CL Leander, CL Cleveland + 6 Fletcher Class DDs) arrives on the night of 11th at Auki, finding a modern jap CA+ 7 DDs...the fight is strange and despite the shining moon (90%) and the high experience of my crews, only few hits are delivered at 3000 yards.... we hit with a 8inch a jap DD that probably sunk later on, but our DD Cody ate 2 torpedoes and went under the waves... Our TF then retired without pushing on towards enemy transports..
Now it is clear what Rader has been doing...he's evacuating from Thousands those units that were extracted from Tulagi during the last months...

On the 13th we sent a TF composed around BB Massachusset and North Dakota against his BBs at Thousands... unfortunately he retired to Rekata Bay right before we arrived...at Rekata Bay he found 8 of our DDs that tried a flanking movement in order to close the exit door to his transports...we lost an old ducth DD in the process....
SS Sargo put a torp into CA Kinuiasha...finally a hit!

So now we have our main surface fleet (divided into 3 main SCTFs and 2 DD TFs) back again at TLT, under a strong CAP Umbrella. The dance against his BBs and his LBA/KB will go on...this time we missed each other again...it's the third time that our main surface fleets miss each other...soon we'll clash

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Auki at 115,136, Range 11,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Kako, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Arashi
DD Shinonome
DD Usugumo
DD Sagiri
DD Hakaze
DD Tachikaze
DD Nokaze
DD Uruyuke, Shell hits 3, heavy fires
DD Suresushio

Allied Ships
CA Australia
CL Leander, Shell hits 1
CL Denver, Shell hits 1
DD Fletcher
DD Beale
DD Chevalier, Shell hits 1
DD Cony, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Eaton
DD Jenkins
DD Saufley

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Thousand Ships Bay at 114,136

Japanese Ships
CA Kinugasa, Torpedo hits 1
BB Yamashiro
CL Abukuma
DD Natsushio
DD Susukaze
DD Hikokaze
DD Tanikaze
DD Nowaki

Allied Ships
SS Scamp, hits 16

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by GreyJoy -- 9/26/2011 1:53:32 PM >

(in reply to bigred)

Post #: 2621

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 9:34:46 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

Paul, i see your point and i agree that if i keep my CVs moving i may be able to get a 1 vs 1 carrier battle only (meaning without LBAs)...but i also have 2 very strong points that advocate against this vision:

1- CV fighters are badly needed in the Solomons. Against those numbers of LBA (1300 fighters + 400 bombers) i desperately need those 36x6 Hellcats, and i need them on Lunga, Tulagi or Ndeni, not on CVs that are kept far away from the front. I simply don't have enough fighters to substitute them.

2- I don't have enough escort in order to stay below the max-a/c limits. With 9 CVs + 3 CVLs and 10 CVEs i'd need something like 6/7 Air TFs....and each of those TF needs 8 DDs at least, some CAs and possibly the modern BBs....well, as you know i have my surface combat ships engaged in a mortal dance at TLT and they are foundamental in order to keep his own BBs honest.

I'm not saying i won't use my CVs at all.
I'm getting ready. I'm waiting for my CVs at PH to join the others in SOPAC. Then we'll be ready. All my troops are ready, my ships almost.

I've been most impressed in this AAR with GJ's ability to take ALL of the advice on board, and even respond back to most of it. Along with this he's become quite stubborn and driven to make his own course through this game and learn on his terms as well. Well done.

That said, I will add mine (again).

I think the players with the highest skill level in any game have the uncanny ability to seem more dangerous than they actually are in a given moment. They use deception, constant harassment, changing theaters of activity, and often risk very little but keep their opponent(s) guessing. They are always thinking and playing with an attacking mindset even when they know they are not yet ready to attack, (or past the point of being able to attack). Probing, looking for weakness, and pouncing on any opening. Although Rader has gotten sloppy at times, this is definitely his MO.

It seems like you're beginning to think more in this way. You're almost at the point of being really ready to take advantage of Rader's missteps and follow up on them.

(in reply to bigred)

Post #: 2622

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 11:26:09 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

Paul, i see your point and i agree that if i keep my CVs moving i may be able to get a 1 vs 1 carrier battle only (meaning without LBAs)...but i also have 2 very strong points that advocate against this vision:

1- CV fighters are badly needed in the Solomons. Against those numbers of LBA (1300 fighters + 400 bombers) i desperately need those 36x6 Hellcats, and i need them on Lunga, Tulagi or Ndeni, not on CVs that are kept far away from the front. I simply don't have enough fighters to substitute them.

2- I don't have enough escort in order to stay below the max-a/c limits. With 9 CVs + 3 CVLs and 10 CVEs i'd need something like 6/7 Air TFs....and each of those TF needs 8 DDs at least, some CAs and possibly the modern BBs....well, as you know i have my surface combat ships engaged in a mortal dance at TLT and they are foundamental in order to keep his own BBs honest.

I'm not saying i won't use my CVs at all.
I'm getting ready. I'm waiting for my CVs at PH to join the others in SOPAC. Then we'll be ready. All my troops are ready, my ships almost.

I've been most impressed in this AAR with GJ's ability to take ALL of the advice on board, and even respond back to most of it. Along with this he's become quite stubborn and driven to make his own course through this game and learn on his terms as well. Well done.

That said, I will add mine (again).

I think the players with the highest skill level in any game have the uncanny ability to seem more dangerous than they actually are in a given moment. They use deception, constant harassment, changing theaters of activity, and often risk very little but keep their opponent(s) guessing. They are always thinking and playing with an attacking mindset even when they know they are not yet ready to attack, (or past the point of being able to attack). Probing, looking for weakness, and pouncing on any opening. Although Rader has gotten sloppy at times, this is definitely his MO.

It seems like you're beginning to think more in this way. You're almost at the point of being really ready to take advantage of Rader's missteps and follow up on them.

Thanks for the kind words Obvert!

On a side note, new squadrons are being transfered to the front. I esteem that in 3 weeks we'll be able to give a rest to the CV fighter squadrons and retire them from the front line to send them back to their CVs. In the meantime we're upgrading lots of squadrons to the new generation types of planes (P-47s, P-40N, P-38Hs, P-39Ns, Hellcats and Corsairs).
Since Rader has become more sporadic in his offensive air missions, we've been able to recover - slowly but steady- from the tremendous losses of 1942. As you remember during the defence of Karachi we've lost nearly 4000 planes of different types and it took nearly 6 months for our pool to recover (also because, when the battle of India was over it started the battle for Tulagi). Now the situation is growing better and this improvement will give us the chance of moving back our Navy Hellcats to their belonging decks

In India we have transfered 3000 more AVs to Karachi. We're now, with an air army of 400 fighters present at Karachi and a reserve of supplies of 600k, ready to march back to Multan. I don't know if we'll be able to break his lines...probably not...but we'll surely keep up the pressure on this remote area of his perimeter...thus tiding down a lot of jap forces.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2623

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 11:31:20 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

VP Score is 51,000 for Japan and 27,000 for the Allies if someone wants to know. Our points are mainly due to his terrific Air losses (17,000+ aircraft lost for Japan, against "only" 8,000 for the allies)

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 2624

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 11:34:55 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

I'm with Canoerebel on this. Greyjoy is still learning. Right now his biggest issues are:
1. Seeing every little setback as proof of some trap Rader set for him ( leading him to over-evaluate Rader and create a sort of AE inferiority complex ).
2. the need to avoid doing something stupid which will cripple him for 18 months.

Right now Greyjoy hasn't carried out a single proper large-scale contested amphibious assault. When he does he'll probably make lots of mistakes and lose more than he should. He also doesn't have experience with CV battles etc etc. He can, playing within his "strengths" continue to gain advantage. If he tries stuff he doesn't yet know and understand he is likely to be badly beaten.

He needs to try operations commensurate with his current ability level. A lot of advice here is ignorning that.

Edit: I read witpqs' post which crossed mine. We're very much on the same track. This isn't the time to sit back doing nothing but neither is it the time to carry out operations which he simply has no experience in. It is the time to carry out operations within his level of capabilities which move things forward.

The USMC invaded a VERY peripheral base when they wanted to test out their amphibious doctrine ( Tarawa etc ). They didn't start it out by testing their doctrine vs the Marianas.

Absolutely right Nemo.
That's also why i'd like to test my "amphibious" first time on a non-atoll base like Thousands Ships Bay. It will be bloody and heavily contested but at least i'll have a stiff air cover and a lot of very-near bases. Plus i won't have all the problems related to the "atoll-invasions-rule"...i still have to grab all those concepts and my first Amph.HQ has just arrived, while i still don't have a proper Amph.HQ Ship in my inventory...

I see lots of BB battles in our future when we'll land at Thousands... our screen will be to be impenetrable!

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 2625

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 4:33:31 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

Rader is deeply involved in the Solomons.
As far as i can tell from my recon missions, he has deployed nearly 450,00 men in the bases south of Rabaul.... and as far as i can tell his latest operations have all the same final objective: redeploy his forces in a more logical manner (not easily giving up ground but at the same time not overcommitt over bases that will be "easily" by-passed during the allied counteroffensive.
In this view my goal must be to conquer the most strategical valuable bases on the Slot so to neutralize all the other bases passed-by in the process...
That's why the idea of getting Thousands first. Taking Thousands we can neutralize Auki and Russell in a single blow, threatening at the same time Rekata Bay and Munda...the next step would be Vella La Vella... It will take time and blood, i know...but if i succeed Rader will be finding himself absolutely overcommitted in bases that had lost completely their strategical value...

Between Russell and Auki there are 75,000 men...an Army!...

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 2626

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 5:22:52 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Rader is deeply involved in the Solomons.
As far as i can tell from my recon missions, he has deployed nearly 450,00 men in the bases south of Rabaul.... and as far as i can tell his latest operations have all the same final objective: redeploy his forces in a more logical manner (not easily giving up ground but at the same time not overcommitt over bases that will be "easily" by-passed during the allied counteroffensive.
In this view my goal must be to conquer the most strategical valuable bases on the Slot so to neutralize all the other bases passed-by in the process...
That's why the idea of getting Thousands first. Taking Thousands we can neutralize Auki and Russell in a single blow, threatening at the same time Rekata Bay and Munda...the next step would be Vella La Vella... It will take time and blood, i know...but if i succeed Rader will be finding himself absolutely overcommitted in bases that had lost completely their strategical value...

Between Russell and Auki there are 75,000 men...an Army!...

Yes, if you can just keep him fighting while trying to pull troops out will cost him in planes and ships.

he thing is that with China lost and considering Scen #2 Rader will never hurt for ground troops. No matter how many you destroy, his spare force in China gives him a massive reserve-not to mention the extra divisions the scenario gives him. For this reason I think you will have to focus on taking Islands that he can't retake and killing his fleet. (Which you are doing a good job at). Be wary of large land campaigns in Java, Sumutra, PI or other places such as that. The reason being that until you cut off his sea lanes, he can send massive reinforcements to these areas and bog you down in stalemated land campaigns. He will be able to match you in numbers in any ground campaign for some time to come.

Protected Island bases are your friend..

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 2627

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 5:36:49 PM

SoliInvictus202

Posts: 367
Joined: 8/27/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Rader is deeply involved in the Solomons.
As far as i can tell from my recon missions, he has deployed nearly 450,00 men in the bases south of Rabaul.... and as far as i can tell his latest operations have all the same final objective: redeploy his forces in a more logical manner (not easily giving up ground but at the same time not overcommitt over bases that will be "easily" by-passed during the allied counteroffensive.
In this view my goal must be to conquer the most strategical valuable bases on the Slot so to neutralize all the other bases passed-by in the process...
That's why the idea of getting Thousands first. Taking Thousands we can neutralize Auki and Russell in a single blow, threatening at the same time Rekata Bay and Munda...the next step would be Vella La Vella... It will take time and blood, i know...but if i succeed Rader will be finding himself absolutely overcommitted in bases that had lost completely their strategical value...

Between Russell and Auki there are 75,000 men...an Army!...

Yes, if you can just keep him fighting while trying to pull troops out will cost him in planes and ships.

he thing is that with China lost and considering Scen #2 Rader will never hurt for ground troops. No matter how many you destroy, his spare force in China gives him a massive reserve-not to mention the extra divisions the scenario gives him. For this reason I think you will have to focus on taking Islands that he can't retake and killing his fleet. (Which you are doing a good job at). Be wary of large land campaigns in Java, Sumutra, PI or other places such as that. The reason being that until you cut off his sea lanes, he can send massive reinforcements to these areas and bog you down in stalemated land campaigns. He will be able to match you in numbers in any ground campaign for some time to come.

Protected Island bases are your friend..

great summary! - that is exactly what I was a bit worried about in an early DEI campaign! - even if he only substitutes all unrestricted units on land with restricted (meaning, in India, Burma, Malaya) he gets a huge unit-boost without even having ever paid a single PP... but I doubt that he left it at that :)

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 2628

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 5:47:08 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

Yup, i know guys...and it sucks

I'm sure he won't have any single base ungarrisoned or lightly garrisoned in the whole map by now...in the intel i see entire regiments moving to unknown dot bases (well built up by now) in SRA/DEI...probably an option would be to advance only jumping on atolls....so that his abilities to mass great numbers of troops would be limited...but again we all know how difficult is to take an atoll, well defended and with 9 forts.....
I think only time will tell...
Let's see...we're now entering into a very interesting period of the game...

(in reply to SoliInvictus202)

Post #: 2629

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 6:23:06 PM

String

Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline

Frankly, a regiment means nothing when you land 3-4 divisions with supporting troops on a non-atoll base.

_____________________________

Surface combat TF fanboy

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 2630

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 7:13:09 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: String

Frankly, a regiment means nothing when you land 3-4 divisions with supporting troops on a non-atoll base.

Hope so String...but with a reinforced regiment, behind 6 forts and in jungle terrain i managed to stop at Tulagi nothing less than 5 japanese Divisions!

Aug 15, 16 1943

A great victory in the air today.

Our navy bombed Rekata Bay and Auki during the night of 15th August....when our ships came back to Tulagi and the sun set a number of Frances took off from Munda and attacked our Battleships at Tulagi...the escort was strong...but our CAP was huge and determined.
Result? 80 enemy planes shot down in 2 days and NONE of our owns

Our 4Es bombed Thousands during two nights in a row...but the base was already emptied by his planes (as predicted he already retreated after the conclusion of his latest navy operation).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Thousand Ships Bay , at 114,136

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 1 destroyed on ground

No Allied losses

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Rekata Bay at 113,134

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N1 Kate: 34 damaged
B5N1 Kate: 5 destroyed on ground
N1K1-J George: 55 damaged
N1K1-J George: 3 destroyed on ground
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 23 damaged
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 54 damaged
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed on ground
E13A1 Jake: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CA Australia
CA Louisville
CL Denver
CL Trenton
CL Richmond
CL Leander
DD Conyngham
DD Lamson
DD Drayton
DD Saufley
DD Jenkins
DD Eaton
DD Chevalier
DD Beale
DD Fletcher

Japanese ground losses:
331 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 51 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 22 disabled
Vehicles lost 12 (1 destroyed, 11 disabled)

Airbase hits 39
Airbase supply hits 19
Runway hits 133
Port hits 39
Port supply hits 9

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Auki at 115,136

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 8 damaged
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
CA Quincy
DD Aylwin
DD MacDonough
DD Hull
DD Dewey
DD Lang
DD Woodworth
DD Aaron Ward
DD Meredith

Japanese ground losses:
97 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Airbase hits 17
Airbase supply hits 10
Runway hits 52
Port hits 22
Port supply hits 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Tulagi at 114,137

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 14
P1Y1 Frances x 15
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 5
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 42

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk III x 13
Spitfire Vc Trop x 9
Hurricane XIIb x 6
P-38G Lightning x 8
P-38H Lightning x 23
P-40K Warhawk x 37
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 10
F4U-1 Corsair x 43
F6F-3 Hellcat x 74

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 3 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 10 destroyed
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 2 destroyed
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 18 destroyed

No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on TF, near Tulagi at 114,137

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 72 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
H6K4 Mavis x 5

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 12
OS2U-3 Kingfisher x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
H6K4 Mavis: 5 damaged
H6K4 Mavis: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x H6K4 Mavis launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Tulagi at 114,137

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 15
P1Y1 Frances x 8
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 3
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 6

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk III x 13
Spitfire Vc Trop x 9
Hurricane XIIb x 2
P-38G Lightning x 8
P-38H Lightning x 22
P-40K Warhawk x 37
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 6
F4U-1 Corsair x 46
F6F-3 Hellcat x 77

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 10 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 2 destroyed
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 2 destroyed

No Allied losses

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(in reply to String)

Post #: 2631

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 7:14:12 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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Post #: 2632

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 8:16:28 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

KB is out of recon sight. Jap BBs are at Shortland....will they come in and engage battle? I think not...however, just in case, we're ready!

I bought another NZ Bde today. Now we have a full NZ Division equivalent (3 Bde+Pioneer Rgt) ready to be employed on the front.

Today air battles create a bunch of brand new aces in our pilots lines...our P-40Ks are the ones who are doing the best job surpisingly...better than the Hellcats, Corsairs or P-38s...strange enough

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 2633

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 9:37:26 PM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline

80 to nil is pretty indicative of where Rader's pilot quality stands. Well done.

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Post #: 2634

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 10:04:13 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

80 to nil is pretty indicative of where Rader's pilot quality stands. Well done.

Rader stated in his mail that he simply forgot to put those Frances to "stand down" and some fighters decided to take off and follow them to Hell.... I think the "escort" missions do not rapresent well his pilots situation. As we all know escort mission often means the sacrifice of the escorting fighters. It's on the sweep missions that we see how good his pilots are...

That said....it feels good to put in the bag 80 more boogies

(in reply to Cribtop)

Post #: 2635

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 10:49:03 PM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline

No doubt escort suffers, but to me 80 to zip is an additive data point on top of other recent data points indicating serious degradation in his pilot quality.

The real question now is not whether he's depleted but rather to what extent, if any, Rader has kept back an elite reserve. If he hasn't, the Japanese air force is effectively a kamikaze rabble already. If he has, he can pick one or two spots to make a stand. Assume he has kept a reserve but keep up the good work!

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Post #: 2636

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 10:58:13 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

No doubt escort suffers, but to me 80 to zip is an additive data point on top of other recent data points indicating serious degradation in his pilot quality.

The real question now is not whether he's depleted but rather to what extent, if any, Rader has kept back an elite reserve. If he hasn't, the Japanese air force is effectively a kamikaze rabble already. If he has, he can pick one or two spots to make a stand. Assume he has kept a reserve but keep up the good work!

We'll soon see if Rader has some "elites" in reserve.
Soon we'll start our invasions and i bet Rader will send waves after waves of bombers and fighters in order to interdict my invasion fleets. Our Navy will have to provide the right cover, but our airforce will be called to an extraordinary extra work

(in reply to Cribtop)

Post #: 2637

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 11:25:17 PM

Crackaces

Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

No doubt escort suffers, but to me 80 to zip is an additive data point on top of other recent data points indicating serious degradation in his pilot quality.

The real question now is not whether he's depleted but rather to what extent, if any, Rader has kept back an elite reserve. If he hasn't, the Japanese air force is effectively a kamikaze rabble already. If he has, he can pick one or two spots to make a stand. Assume he has kept a reserve but keep up the good work!

That is what I have been thinking Cribtop .. in addition .. the criticallity of haivng land based HellCats might be dimished. The economies of scale given the last drubbing might suggest getting those Hellcats back on mobile platforms.

Also Cribtop you have commented in a previous post I beleive that besides a complete lack of coordination with big CVTF's there is no other penality. Given the lack of support ships, one big or two large death star CVTF's approach with the supporting cast is doable . is that correct? .. Besides the disadvantage of getting sunk all at once but the penality for air coordiantion is not as severe as we think it is .. Is that correct? Anyway I thought it was your post in another thread Correct me if I am wrong ..

(in reply to Cribtop)

Post #: 2638

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/26/2011 11:56:01 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

August 17, 18 1943

Rader surprises again us all.
His crews are as danger as ever when on Sweep Missions.
And his bombers crew are also deadly when unopposed...

a bad day overall for the western countries...

The turn starts with a horrible news... 4 Mavis arrived at night over Tulagi and, despite the usual Kingfisher CAp, managed to put a torp into South dakota...
The big proud ship is now limping back...will try to reach Sydney...with 30 sys and 30 flt damage...she'll be out till 1944 more or less...if she ever makes it... a strong escort of 8 DDs is given to her...but cannot say i'm not depressed...a lucky hit and i lose one of my 5 fast battleships...

Then, when the day arrives, 200 georges sweep my fleet at Tulagi... for two days the battle raged over Tulagi and the georges clearly had the upper hand against my TOP GUN squadrons...

intel says 48 to 47 air losses in his favour but i suspect it's more like 2-1 in his favour. My P-40Ks did particularly bad and my Hellcats, despite being on a higher altitude (35k against 31k) weren't a factor and perished in droves...
So what does this mean? it clearly means that his air crews are far from being low-quality guys...all my pilots on that front are in their 70 exp, 70+ A2A and 60 Def...

Lost 10 pilots in the process...not bad...could be worse....but again this teaches me that i never have to go overconfident...

A bad day...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on TF, near Tulagi at 114,137

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 39 minutes

Japanese aircraft
H6K4 Mavis x 4

Allied aircraft
OS2U-3 Kingfisher x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
H6K4 Mavis: 4 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
BB South Dakota, Torpedo hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tulagi , at 114,137

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 23 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 36

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk III x 13
Spitfire Vc Trop x 11
Hurricane XIIb x 6
P-38G Lightning x 21
P-38H Lightning x 36
P-40K Warhawk x 59
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 14
F4U-1 Corsair x 57
F6F-3 Hellcat x 106

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 15 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk III: 1 destroyed
P-40K Warhawk: 5 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair: 2 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tulagi , at 114,137

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 182 NM, estimated altitude 36,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 54 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 202

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk III x 7
Spitfire Vc Trop x 9
Hurricane XIIb x 4
P-38G Lightning x 19
P-38H Lightning x 29
P-40K Warhawk x 44
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 9
F4U-1 Corsair x 38
F6F-3 Hellcat x 93

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk III: 2 destroyed
Hurricane XIIb: 1 destroyed
P-38H Lightning: 1 destroyed
P-40K Warhawk: 2 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 4 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tulagi , at 114,137

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 196 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 58 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 189

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk III x 11
Spitfire Vc Trop x 10
Hurricane XIIb x 5
P-38G Lightning x 20
P-38H Lightning x 33
P-40K Warhawk x 44
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 11
F4U-1 Corsair x 50
F6F-3 Hellcat x 89

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane XIIb: 2 destroyed
P-38G Lightning: 1 destroyed
P-40K Warhawk: 4 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 2 destroyed

(in reply to Crackaces)

Post #: 2639

RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/27/2011 1:19:42 AM

JohnDillworth

Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline

quote:

will try to reach Sydney...with 30 sys and 30 flt damage

More bad news......Sydney does not help. Will not fit in the dry dock. If you have a closer port with an AR head there, fix the system damage and then off to one of the big dry docks. Pearl is the closest.

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Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 2640