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John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/27/2011 4:09:27 PM

Stardog

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From: Hickory N.C.
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Howdy!

Did HPS & John Tiller part ways??..

I found John Tillers web site yesterday.He as two Panzer Campaign games for sale not listed on the HPS site??..

Also he has " PANZER BATTLES " listed as a game COMING SOON! ?
Its very hard to tell from the tiny pic he has posted but it states that the game Panzer Battle > will fit in scale between Squad Battles and Panzer Campaigns, having 250 meter hexes and platoon units. Panzer Battle wargames are designed to focus on tank battle and ranged fire.

Correct me if I'm wrong boys but 250 meter per Hex is that not the very same scale that PANZER-BLITZ & PANZER LEADER was based on??

Could this be the long awaited PANZER-BLITZ & PANZER LEADER put on the computer?

Anybody got any info on this???

Stardog

< Message edited by Stardog -- 9/27/2011 4:11:32 PM >

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Post #: 1

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/27/2011 7:18:11 PM

wodin

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Awaiting more news on Panzer Battles...

Yes JT and HPS parted ways a few months ago now.

(in reply to Stardog)

Post #: 2

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/27/2011 7:32:51 PM

Hanal

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Has anyone bought a downloaded game from Tiller's site? I am curious about any DRM scheme that might be employed....and by the way, my favorite PanzerBlitz scenario was Kursk. All three maps were end to end and you had a good old fashioned armor slugfest!

< Message edited by J P Falcon -- 9/27/2011 7:34:17 PM >

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Post #: 3

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/27/2011 7:51:41 PM

junk2drive

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John Tiller's Campaign Series (formerly Talonsoft) is available here at Matrix and is platoon level, 250m hex. There is a PL and PB mod in the forum.

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Post #: 4

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/27/2011 8:11:13 PM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

Has anyone bought a downloaded game from Tiller's site? I am curious about any DRM scheme that might be employed....and by the way, my favorite PanzerBlitz scenario was Kursk. All three maps were end to end and you had a good old fashioned armor slugfest!

I have. The DRM is very tolerable.

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Post #: 5

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/28/2011 7:31:47 AM

sterckxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon
I am curious about any DRM scheme that might be employed....

Call-home to a server upon installation. Once that server is gone you can kiss goodbye to your $50 game.

... and good luck complaining about installation or other game problems on their forum - they haven't got one.

It simply amazes me every time that there are actually people who buy stuff under these conditions.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Hanal)

Post #: 6

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/28/2011 12:01:26 PM

Hanal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

John Tiller's Campaign Series (formerly Talonsoft) is available here at Matrix and is platoon level, 250m hex. There is a PL and PB mod in the forum.

I wish I could revisit the Campaign Series as I have not delved into that game for a couple of years...unfortunately while I have my Serial Reg. number, I cannot find my set up files for the game. I need to cull through a bunch of cd roms and hopefully I'll find it burned there!

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 7

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/28/2011 1:08:49 PM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon
I am curious about any DRM scheme that might be employed....

Call-home to a server upon installation. Once that server is gone you can kiss goodbye to your $50 game.

... and good luck complaining about installation or other game problems on their forum - they haven't got one.

It simply amazes me every time that there are actually people who buy stuff under these conditions.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

Waaaah, waaaah... It simply amazes me that people STILL whine about this, and STILL look down their noses at the rest of us who choose to buy these games anyway. SHUT THE **** UP!!!!

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RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/28/2011 4:28:52 PM

parusski

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What Terminus said!

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Post #: 9

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/28/2011 4:49:25 PM

gabeeg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon
I am curious about any DRM scheme that might be employed....

Call-home to a server upon installation. Once that server is gone you can kiss goodbye to your $50 game.

... and good luck complaining about installation or other game problems on their forum - they haven't got one.

It simply amazes me every time that there are actually people who buy stuff under these conditions.

Just to correct what sterckxe posted above, JTS does not yet have a forum, but there is an active HPS forum on the wargamer website that also includes JTS games. Representatives of JTS are very active on those forums, and quickly answer questions. Also, JTS has a support page on their website. In my experience I have always been contacted within 24 hours or less after posting a support request.

Lastly, I do not like any DRM but the JTS DRM is about as unobtrusive as they get. It phones home upon installation in about a second and done. JTS has answered the question about "What if JTS goes out of business":

"Q: Activation requires that I be able to connect to the John Tiller Software server over the Internet. What happens if John Tiller Software goes out of business and there isn't a server to connect to?

A: We have been developing computer wargames since 1995 and almost all of the products developed since that time are still being sold and supported. We have demonstrated a unique ability to remain in the challenging wargame industry for the long term, but if what you say does happen, it is our commitment to our customers to release updates to all of our products that would not require activation."

They have a FAQ on their policy here: http://johntillersoftware.com/catalog/shipping.php?osCsid=364c87f0b994d49284370475e416c080

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 10

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/28/2011 5:14:49 PM

sterckxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gabeeg
"Q: Activation requires that I be able to connect to the John Tiller Software server over the Internet. What happens if John Tiller Software goes out of business and there isn't a server to connect to?

A: We have been developing computer wargames since 1995 and almost all of the products developed since that time are still being sold and supported. We have demonstrated a unique ability to remain in the challenging wargame industry for the long term, but if what you say does happen, it is our commitment to our customers to release updates to all of our products that would not require activation."

Oh, they're "committed" - wow - how nice of them - not that this sorta promise will do you any good the moment they go Chapter 11.

What I find funny is that when someone simply asks about what kind of DRM is employed, you get no answer from the fans. Then when someone like me just answers that OP question with plain facts, they suddenly come out of the woodwork and basically tell me to shut up.

Seems to me that some people are feeling just that little bit insecure about the whole setup and then try to drain away their fear by declaring very loudly, and without any basis in facts, nor common sense, that it'll all be allright. It isn't and the fact you're trying to shout me down pretty much proves it.

If you want to buy DRM-infected games : go ahead - it's your money - but just try to be honest for once when someone asks the dreaded DRM question about your favourite game.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

< Message edited by sterckxe -- 9/28/2011 5:15:34 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/28/2011 5:38:13 PM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gabeeg
JTS has answered the question about "What if JTS goes out of business":

"Q: Activation requires that I be able to connect to the John Tiller Software server over the Internet. What happens if John Tiller Software goes out of business and there isn't a server to connect to?

A: We have been developing computer wargames since 1995 and almost all of the products developed since that time are still being sold and supported. We have demonstrated a unique ability to remain in the challenging wargame industry for the long term, but if what you say does happen, it is our commitment to our customers to release updates to all of our products that would not require activation."

They have a FAQ on their policy here: http://johntillersoftware.com/catalog/shipping.php?osCsid=364c87f0b994d49284370475e416c080

I hate to dig up the dirty laundry again (if that isn't a mixed metaphor) but, as with Battlefront, Storm Eagle and anyone else who claims the same thing such a 'commitment' is utterly worthless. If the company concerned (whichever) did go tits-up neither the updates nor the hardware needed to distribute them is likely to remain under the control of the people who made the commitment. Or, in other words, the updates are no longer theirs to distribute.

That said, in the case of BF and SE I wanted the product enough to live with both the DRM and lousy developer attitude. If JT released anything I wanted enough, no doubt that would be the same. At least he doesn't have an attitude problem that I'm aware of!

< Message edited by Hertston -- 9/28/2011 5:40:25 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/28/2011 7:46:09 PM

Perturabo

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I refuse to buy any product with online activation on principle. This includes OSs and interesting games.
I want to have a fully functional product whenever I have an internet connection or not and generally, I don't want any additional hassles from something that I buy for entertainment.

As for buying "DRM-infected" games. Matrix Games games are "DRM-infected" too. Except that DRM is limited to having to input a keycode when installing game/patches and effects DRM failure are limited having to reinstall game. The only thing you need is the installation file and the keycode.
Needing connection at the moment of installation isn't "as unobtrusive as DRM can get". It's a pretty extreme form of DRM.

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RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/29/2011 1:38:23 AM

mgarnett

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Out of interest, and I'm not trolling here, are there any instances of a company going "belly-up" that had games requiring internet activation that can no longer be activated (i am only really interested in wargames but any genre examples would be good)?

The way I see it, you have two choices, don't buy the games because of what "might" happen (but may never happen) and deprive yourself of the enjoymeny or, buy the games knowing the risk but you consider it acceptable. Either way is just as "right" as the other.

I for one, take the enjoyment approach and buy the games knowing the risks.

Cheers

Mark

(in reply to Perturabo)

Post #: 14

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/29/2011 7:46:09 AM

sterckxe

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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mgarnett
Out of interest, and I'm not trolling here, are there any instances of a company going "belly-up" that had games requiring internet activation that can no longer be activated (i am only really interested in wargames but any genre examples would be good)?

Sure, in the tabletop world there was this tabletop/computer hybrid game - you input the battle parameters on the computer which would then tell you the result to apply on the tabletop. The name escapes me right now but it was something like Illyrium or such. Last I heard it went belly-up and customers where left hanging. Could probably find you the name if I googled it - Neil Schuck of the Meeples & Miniatures podcast was a big fan of that game so it'll show up in the shownotes.

Talonsoft's Conflict Middle East is another good example : it employs a kind of Starforce DRM protection that simply will not work on a modern day OS. The funny thing here is that Talonsoft's owner is now the guy behind Storm Eagle Studios who employ server activiation and also pinky swears they'll remove that when they go out of business. Yeah, right, that promise and a $10 bill will get you a free meal at Fat Tony's All You Can Eat for $9.99 pizza place.

A final point : I've been wargaming on the pc for a long time. Here's a list of pc wargame companies which aren't around anymore : Empire Interactive, AH, SSI, Broderbund, CSS, MicroProse, DataSoft, General Quarters, RAW, SDJ Enterprises, Sirius Software, Sierra, 360 Pacific, QQP, Interactive Magic, IPCO and of course Talonsoft.

Do you really think all current pc wargame publishers will still be around by 2020 and then imagine they all employed DRM ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: mgarnett
The way I see it, you have two choices, don't buy the games because of what "might" happen (but may never happen) and deprive yourself of the enjoymeny or, buy the games knowing the risk but you consider it acceptable. Either way is just as "right" as the other.

Agreed. What gets on my nerves is those "whistling in the dark" guys proclaiming there's no problem with DRM when someone, like the OP, asks a straight-up question. That's acting dishonestly, almost like trying to trick someone into buying a game they maybe wouldn't have bought if they had known the full facts.

Be open about the facts, then everyone can make a decision for themselves.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to mgarnett)

Post #: 15

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/29/2011 10:51:53 AM

Hexagon

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I have the 2 PzC titles from Tiller store and plan buy other titles (promise of a new napoleonic title this year, at least one) but i dont like DRM because, sorry the word, is stupid, a simple system like the one used on Matrix games is enough, IS Matrix who be ready to hunt pirate copies and dont molest customers because i dont have any problems with Tiller�s DRM but�this dont means that i could have problems.

Returning to the Panzer Battles... as usual the lack of info is the same as in HPS, maybe say what is the theater... in the small pic looks like is Normandy or at least West front... i prefer better east front but you know, the serie with this scale has a great potential because can cover Pacific, modern battles (Fulda Gap, Danube, middle east... etc etc ) but coming soon meaning is

for me is less than 9 months and if i dont have bad memory announce of Panzer battles appear before the arrive of Tiller�s store i remember seee it on november 2010

EDIT: i never like a lot Tiller�s campaigns series because i prefer see strength of units in soldiers/tanks/guns, dont like the abstact concept of steps.

< Message edited by Hexagon -- 9/29/2011 10:52:37 AM >

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RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/29/2011 11:53:25 AM

Perturabo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mgarnett

Out of interest, and I'm not trolling here, are there any instances of a company going "belly-up" that had games requiring internet activation that can no longer be activated (i am only really interested in wargames but any genre examples would be good)?

The way I see it, you have two choices, don't buy the games because of what "might" happen (but may never happen) and deprive yourself of the enjoymeny or, buy the games knowing the risk but you consider it acceptable. Either way is just as "right" as the other.

It would assume that enjoyable stuff is rare and one has tons of money. Right now I can't afford buying everything I want, so anything that isn't made "my way" automatically disappears from the "to buy" list.

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RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/29/2011 12:17:16 PM

wodin

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I honesty believ thet a software company would have enough time to get out a patch to bi pass the drm before they go bankrupt. I also believe that most would do it aswell.

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Post #: 18

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/29/2011 12:20:58 PM

mgarnett

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mgarnett

Out of interest, and I'm not trolling here, are there any instances of a company going "belly-up" that had games requiring internet activation that can no longer be activated (i am only really interested in wargames but any genre examples would be good)?

The way I see it, you have two choices, don't buy the games because of what "might" happen (but may never happen) and deprive yourself of the enjoymeny or, buy the games knowing the risk but you consider it acceptable. Either way is just as "right" as the other.

It would assume that enjoyable stuff is rare and one has tons of money. Right now I can't afford buying everything I want, so anything that isn't made "my way" automatically disappears from the "to buy" list.

Yep, that's a fair call, each decision is a personal one and what may be right for one person may not be right for the other.

(in reply to Perturabo)

Post #: 19

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/29/2011 1:22:02 PM

Lieste

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I'd expand that to pretty much anything that makes casual browsing difficult:

Must sign in to a forum to view posts - I'm gone - but if I must register to post... I might stick about and join in if I like what I've seen/read.
Must sign in to view forum images - Even if I've already registered I might not bother... but I certainly won't register for that purpose.

Videos on Youtube are good & downloadable pdf for AAR or manuals are useful for buy/no-buy decisions. If everything else looks good, then this isn't a deal breaker, but no matter how good the system is, if I'm not prepared to jump hurdles to get to it, then you've lost my interest - the internet is full of interesting things, and my shelf full of interesting games already...

I dislike realtime wrappers/protection schemes as they eat my already limited CPU cycles, I don't like call-home schemes partially due to problems in the past with my ISP - if I can't work (online stuff) then I might want to play (offline) instead... but if even that requires fore-planning or a call-home, then that is really annoying... I've had several cases where the protection made a game unplayable (LOMAC leaps to mind - where Ubisoft was distributing the 'crack' developed by a 3rd party to remove the diskcheck to those affected - it had a memory leak).

(in reply to mgarnett)

Post #: 20

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/29/2011 2:28:19 PM

sterckxe

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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
I honesty believ thet a software company would have enough time to get out a patch to bi pass the drm before they go bankrupt.

The problem is that this might be viewed by auditors as de-valueing the assets of the about to fail company, which is a big no-no.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
I also believe that most would do it aswell.

Can I interest you in some investment in Nigeria ?

No offense intended, I've been reading your posts for years and you seem like a nice, knowledgeable guy - so it pains me a bit that you will get shafted by those companies you trust so much.

Call me paranoid as much as you like - I call it decades of experience with how companies operate.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 21

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/29/2011 2:36:41 PM

sterckxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieste
I'm not prepared to jump hurdles to get to it, then you've lost my interest - the internet is full of interesting things, and my shelf full of interesting games already...

Should be a chapter title in every business book : do not make your customers jump through hoops to get to the product you want to sell them.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Lieste)

Post #: 22

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 12:53:44 AM

Stardog

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From: Hickory N.C.
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My Brothers My Brothers...

Junk - Thanks for the heads up on the PB & PL Mod for the JTCS games!
Dude the MOD is so sweet!! 2nd I thought the JTCS was 500metes per Hex,thanks for the correction.

Lastly
As far as the Panzer Battles game I would love to see more screen shots and a release date..

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Post #: 23

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 1:17:24 AM

Ron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
Then when someone like me just answers that OP question with plain facts, they suddenly come out of the woodwork and basically tell me to shut up

Well one obvious fact is you are a lot paranoid.

While you are waxing prophetic, I will be enjoying the games from John Tiller, Battlefront and the like.

Good luck.

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 24

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 1:22:55 AM

Perturabo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
Then when someone like me just answers that OP question with plain facts, they suddenly come out of the woodwork and basically tell me to shut up

Well one obvious fact is you are a lot paranoid.

While you are waxing prophetic, I will be enjoying the games from John Tiller, Battlefront and the like.

While he will certainly be enjoying other products, which don't require existence of some special servers and internet connection to work.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 9/30/2011 1:25:30 AM >

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Post #: 25

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 2:02:33 AM

Ketza

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From: Columbia, Maryland
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The last thing on someones mind who is going out of business is to do any extra work even remotely related to what the business did before it went out of business.

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Post #: 26

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 7:32:56 AM

mgarnett

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The reality is, is that there is just as much chance of a company releasing a DRM removing patch as there is of a company not releasing a DRM removing patch. People prefer to view one of these situations as being more probable than the other to support their own views.

Neither is right or wrong, as long as you are prepared to make a decision and live by the decision, if you choose not to buy, be happy with that. If you choose to buy, be hapy with that also. There's no need or reason to try and convert a person from one train of thought to the other because that's pretty much impossible.

I could argue till I'm blue in the face that JTS (or more correctly Tiller himself) has demonstrated over a decade of continous product support (in various guises) and as such, that demonstrated track should be taken into consideration when making a decision. But I could never categorically refute the fact that I could be left high and dry with unusuable software. It's a risk I choose to take in this particular situation. Alternatively, the people who choose not to buy cannot categorically prove that the company will go out of business and a DRM removing patch won't be released. So we are left with two unprovable arguments which is where the judgement call is required to suit the individual.

On the other hand, as much as I would like to buy the naval wargames by Storm Eagle Studio, I wouldn't because when I way up the circumstances surrounding that particular decision I come down on the other side of the fence (a no buy decision).

Cheers

Mark

(in reply to Ketza)

Post #: 27

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 8:52:36 AM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
Then when someone like me just answers that OP question with plain facts, they suddenly come out of the woodwork and basically tell me to shut up

Well one obvious fact is you are a lot paranoid.
While you are waxing prophetic, I will be enjoying the games from John Tiller, Battlefront and the like.

Good luck.

The irony here being that this puppy here won't need to be lucky, but you will.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Ron)

Post #: 28

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 9:02:39 AM

sterckxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
While he will certainly be enjoying other products, which don't require existence of some special servers and internet connection to work.

I always get a chuckle out of some publishers thinking they're the only show in town and which throw up barriers between my $50 and their own bank account. Good luck getting that compensated by the $50 from some kid in China on a 10 cents a week allowance, which you prevented from pirating your game with your precious DRM.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Perturabo)

Post #: 29

RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 9:57:20 AM

jomni

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I suspect it will be like Campaign Series but with more detailed and less generic units (you see number of people instead of steps, etc.).

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
... and good luck complaining about installation or other game problems on their forum - they haven't got one.

It simply amazes me every time that there are actually people who buy stuff under these conditions.

Ok I'm coming out in the dark to share my experience. The DRM system did turn against me. It is tied to your MAC address which may change if you change some of your PC components. So I had multiple PC installation problems with Squad Battles Modern War and they sorted it out via email communication. They did stuff by sending me new files and reseting the data in servers.

All in all, I am satisfied in the way they handled it unlike BattleFront.

< Message edited by jomni -- 9/30/2011 10:05:09 AM >

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Post #: 30