Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...?

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Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/1/2011 2:23:35 AM

Feinder

Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline

Am I wasting my time trying to disrupt an enemy attack on ~my~ base at Port Moresby?
My (Allied) troops at Port Moresby are being pounded (almost) every night.
My troops have obviously stacked all my supplies on the beach with a bunch signal fires saying "SHOOT HERE!"

Meanwhile, I managed to "sneak" in my own bombardment TF when the cat was away to (hopefully) disrupt my opponents troops that are beseiging PM. Despite "escorts bombards" and "everybody pull with 1000 yds.", I seem to have been shooting marshmellows...?

I own PM. The badguys are outside.
I've been bombing and reconing him.
So his DL should be as high as mine.

But ~NOTHING~ ????!!!

Did I miss the miss a chapter somewhere...?

Night Naval bombardment of Port Moresby at 98,130

Allied Ships
CA Canberra
CA Australia
CL Hobart
CL Achilles
CL Leander
CLAA San Juan
CLAA Juneau
CLAA Atlanta
DD Arunta
DD Aylwin
DD Monaghan
DD Dale
DD Hull
DD Dewey
DD Clark
DD Selfridge
DD Jarvis
DD Patterson
DD Henley
DD Mugford
DD Helm
DD Blue
DD Bagley
DD Laffey
DD Aaron Ward

CA Canberra firing marsh-mallows at I/55 Mtn Gun Rgt
CA Australia firing soap bubbles at 144th Infantry Regiment
CL Hobart firing dandilions at I/55 Mtn Gun Rgt
CL Achilles firing kittens at 144th Infantry Regiment
CL Leander firing sexy thongs at I/55 Mtn Gun Rgt
CLAA San Juan firing nerf balls at 144th Infantry Regiment
CLAA Juneau firing cotton balls at 144th Infantry Regiment
CLAA Atlanta firing grapes at 144th Infantry Regiment
DD Arunta firing bunnies at 144th Infantry Regiment
DD Aylwin firing dryer lint at teddy bears I/55 Mtn Gun Rgt
DD Monaghan firing pillows at 144th Infantry Regiment
DD Dale firing rose petals at 144th Infantry Regiment
DD Hull firing balloons at 144th Infantry Regiment
DD Dewey firing paper wads at 144th Infantry Regiment
DD Clark firing raindrops on roses at I/55 Mtn Gun Rgt
DD Selfridge firing whiskers on kittens at I/55 Mtn Gun Rgt
DD Jarvis firing warm woolen mittens at 144th Infantry Regiment
DD Patterson firing Brown paper packages tied up with strings at I/55 Mtn Gun Rgt
DD Henley firing Cream colored ponies at 144th Infantry Regiment
DD Mugford firing crisp apple streudels at Sasebo 5th SNLF
DD Helm firing Doorbells and sleigh bells at 144th Infantry Regiment
DD Blue firing schnitzel with noodles at I/55 Mtn Gun Rgt
DD Bagley firing Snowflakes at 144th Infantry Regiment
DD Laffey firing white dresses with blue satin sashes at I/55 Mtn Gun Rgt
DD Aaron Ward firing Silver white winters that melt into springs at 144th Infantry Regiment

[no casualties listed]

vs.

Night Naval bombardment of Port Moresby at 98,130

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CA Kako
CA Furutaka
CA Kinugasa
CA Aoba
CA Chokai
CL Yubari
CL Tatsuta
CL Tenryu

Allied ground losses:
98 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 7 disabled
Guns lost 4 (1 destroyed, 3 disabled)
Vehicles lost 8 (1 destroyed, 7 disabled)

Airbase hits 18
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 110
Port hits 23
Port fuel hits 10
Port supply hits 4

E7K2 Alf acting as spotter for CA Kako
CA Kako firing at Port Moresby
CA Furutaka firing at Port Moresby
CA Kinugasa firing at Port Moresby
CA Aoba firing at Port Moresby
E13A1 Jake acting as spotter for CA Chokai
CA Chokai firing at 14th Australian Brigade
CL Yubari firing at Port Moresby
CL Tatsuta firing at Port Moresby
CL Tenryu firing at 14th Australian Brigade

or

Night Naval bombardment of Port Moresby at 98,130

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Kongo
CA Haguro
CA Chokai
CA Maya
CA Chikuma
DD Yuzuki
DD Mutsuki
DD Akatsuki
DD Ariake
DD Umikaze
DD Yudachi
DD Kazegumo
DD Akigumo

Allied ground losses:
98 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 10 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 11 (3 destroyed, 8 disabled)
Vehicles lost 7 (4 destroyed, 3 disabled)

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 83
Port hits 5

E13A1 Jake acting as spotter for BB Haruna
BB Haruna firing at Port Moresby
BB Kongo firing at Port Moresby
E13A1 Jake acting as spotter for CA Haguro
CA Haguro firing at 14th Australian Brigade
E13A1 Jake acting as spotter for CA Chokai
CA Chokai firing at 30th Australian Brigade
CA Maya firing at 14th Australian Brigade
CA Chikuma firing at 30th Australian Brigade
DD Yuzuki firing at 30th Australian Brigade
DD Mutsuki firing at 30th Australian Brigade
DD Akatsuki firing at 30th Australian Brigade
DD Ariake firing at 52nd USAAF Base Force
DD Umikaze firing at 30th Australian Brigade
DD Yudachi firing at 30th Australian Brigade
DD Kazegumo firing at 14th Australian Brigade
DD Akigumo firing at 30th Australian Brigade

< Message edited by Feinder -- 10/1/2011 2:26:07 AM >

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Post #: 1

RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/1/2011 10:02:14 AM

Puhis

Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline

Maybe you had too many ships? Huge combat TFs perform very badly. Try to run 10 ship TF, you really don't need 17 destroyers...

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 2

RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/1/2011 12:33:49 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Maybe you had too many ships? Huge combat TFs perform very badly. Try to run 10 ship TF, you really don't need 17 destroyers...

yea right that has to be it!

the Japanese 15 ship TF was surely handicapped by it's numbers

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 10/1/2011 12:34:54 PM >

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Post #: 3

RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/1/2011 12:54:47 PM

kbullard

Posts: 55
Joined: 5/27/2002
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

Great to see a post from Feinder!

It looks like the Japanese are also use float planes as spotters, which reportedly helps. There's an old thread somewhere that talks about it.

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 4

RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/1/2011 1:24:16 PM

inqistor

Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline

DDs are not very useful at bombardment, because smaller guns have pitiful Soft Attack values (like 5). Your TF looks large (I think hardcoded maximum is 15), but I actually see no enemy hits (and there is artillery unit reported), it should be some if you bombarded at point-blank. So, are you sure range was set at minimum?

Anyway, ONE attack could go wrong. If you see similar results later, it would be useful to take a closer look.

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 5

RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/1/2011 3:08:23 PM

Dan Nichols

Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
Status: offline

I've had real bad luck with soap bubbles doing much damage myself.

(in reply to inqistor)

Post #: 6

RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/1/2011 3:19:15 PM

zuluhour

Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

CL Leander firing sexy thongs at I/55 Mtn Gun Rgt

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 7

RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/1/2011 7:06:06 PM

Puhis

Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Maybe you had too many ships? Huge combat TFs perform very badly. Try to run 10 ship TF, you really don't need 17 destroyers...

yea right that has to be it!

the Japanese 15 ship TF was surely handicapped by it's numbers

Well HansBolter, you do realise 15 is the magic number?

Manual, pages 90-91
Most TFs may contain a maximum of 25 ships (although 15 or less is most efficient for a combat TF)

Task forces that consist of more than 15 ships suffer diminishing returns in effectiveness defending against air attack and fighting in surface battles.

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 8

RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/1/2011 9:03:04 PM

Dan Nichols

Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Maybe you had too many ships? Huge combat TFs perform very badly. Try to run 10 ship TF, you really don't need 17 destroyers...

yea right that has to be it!

the Japanese 15 ship TF was surely handicapped by it's numbers

Well HansBolter, you do realise 15 is the magic number?

Manual, pages 90-91
Most TFs may contain a maximum of 25 ships (although 15 or less is most efficient for a combat TF)

Task forces that consist of more than 15 ships suffer diminishing returns in effectiveness defending against air attack and fighting in surface battles.

You do realize that when firing paper wads, the size of the TF is immaterial?

(in reply to Puhis)

Post #: 9

RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/1/2011 9:04:37 PM

Sredni

Posts: 705
Joined: 9/30/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

I've noticed this happening to me as well. I have an allied base in a normal island hex (non atoll) with jungle terrain and several divisions of japanese sieging it and my bombardment TF's don't seem to do much of anything when they hit. There's enough AV in the siege that I really don't want to have to redirect 5 or 6 divisions there to kill them off, and I've tried both ground bombing with massed 4e bombers and numerous bombardements to no avail.

They've been there long enough that they have probably built up 5 or 6 forts for each ground unit so I figured that along with the jungle hex have made them pretty much immune to attack. I think they're stuck there for the rest of the game along with the garrison force I have in control of the base.

I've tried cruiser bombardments and like 10 BB bombardments and it doesn't really matter. Might as well be pouring fuel and supplies into the ocean.

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 10

RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/1/2011 9:08:53 PM

oldman45

Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline

Feinder, shame about the bombardment, I am sure somebody will figure something out. I just wanted to say your description of the allied bombardment was classic!!

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RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/2/2011 1:00:54 AM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

First you can't have over 15 ships in a Task Force - performance is horrible, secondly - no need for anything over 6 destroyers top. Also there was no recon done during the bombardment - If you set your Seaplanes to "Recon" with out a target given (I generally bombard at night time thus is when I fly my floatplanes for recon)

Also I do have 1-2 ships Recon by day (seaplanes of course) the one/two recon really helps.

Just bombarded Lea with 3 CL's and scored 61 casualties, nothing special but I always send ships with less then 2 Seaplanes to "Spotting duty" while anything over 2 are used for day time recon / Naval Search.

Edit:

If you have destroyers for ASW - I recommend putting 4 in a TF set to follow, a Carrier group of 3 or more carriers I always have a ASW TF learking by in addition to 5-6 destroyers.

< Message edited by Misconduct -- 10/2/2011 1:03:51 AM >

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RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/2/2011 3:04:58 AM

Feinder

Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline

Thanks for the "welcome back(s)". I definately learning the differences in mechanics between WitP classic and AE.
I'll try with 15 ships (or less). But, FWIW, "diminishing returns" by definition at least doesn't mean "nothing" for the entire group. In theory at least, diminishing returns would mean that that the first 15 ships are at 100%, the 16th at 90%, the 17ths at 80%, teh 18th at 70% or some other reducer. But with "diminishing returns" you should get full effect from the first 15, and a lesser amount from anything about 15. But more than 15 with dim returns does not mean less effective than 15.

And yes, the ships did bombard, there wer plenty of messages of [ship] bombarding at 8k, [ship closes range to 4k and bombarding, [ship] bombarding at 2k... etc.

True, I don't know if my seaplanes were set to recon from my ships. I do have plenty of land-based aircraft from Oz flying recon, and as ground units engaged in combat, I believe their DL is supposed to be pretty high anyway. But I'll insure that the float planes on the cruisers are set to recon as well. But just as a matter of curiousity, wouldn't launching float planes at night, spotting at night, and esp trying to recover at night (and at high speed due to the nature of the game bombardment TFs), all be very tricky? Flying ANYTHING at night sucked. What was the battle (Marianas?) where the USN formations came back after dusk, and it was a big gamble that they turned the lights on the CVs so the guys could land? Big concern of sillotte vs. enemy subs. They still ended up losing about a 1/3 of aircraft as I recall, but at least most of the pilots were recovered (as opposed to ditching who knows where in the black of the Pacific).

But whatever.

If it's game mechanics or dumb (bad) luck, I'll figure it out. Thanks for the help and suggestions. I'll send in another group when able, that is 15 or less, and let you know.

-F-

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Post #: 13

RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/2/2011 3:38:51 AM

ny59giants

Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline

Don't forget to train up your FPs in Recon skills. They all get above 55 skill in Naval Search. Then some will get training in ASW or Recon skills. It helps for the pilots to know the difference between a whale and a DD.

The Kingfisher carry some nice sized bombs to hit subs with.

If you conduct your bombardments at night, then switch a ship or two to nighttime and the Recon FPs to 6k and range 1 or 2. I usually select a target for them even when they are out of range.

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RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/2/2011 5:04:47 AM

rockmedic109

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline

Did you have one of the FP groups set for recon, destination being the hex bombarded and ops {day/night} set for when you are bombarding?

That's one of the new changes in {the latest} an official patch. I had a group of RN cruisers at Rangoon bombarding the beseigers and they did virtually nothing after that patch {even with the spotters--recon aircraft--up}. Threw me for a loop but overall a good tweak, I think.

(in reply to ny59giants)

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RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/2/2011 9:30:30 AM

Erkki

Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder
If it's game mechanics or dumb (bad) luck, I'll figure it out. Thanks for the help and suggestions. I'll send in another group when able, that is 15 or less, and let you know.

In this individual case, probably just luck. I've used Yamato to pound a Chinese Corps in clear terrain hex: no forts, daytime bombardment with floatplanes, range 0 with a few escort DDs, they got 2 non-combat squads disabled and 17 casualties. Guess what happened to the fire control officer, Lol.

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RE: Hm. Naval bombardment vs. enemy in friendly hex...? - 10/3/2011 9:31:31 PM

Oldguard1970

Posts: 578
Joined: 7/19/2006
From: Hiawassee, GA
Status: offline

Feinder!! Great! I have learned so much from him.

I regret I cannot offer any help in this case, but I am delighted to hijack the thread to salute a grand forumite. I also need to thank those who offered suggestions. You helped to roll back some of the dark clouds of ignorance that surround me.

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Post #: 17