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RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/29/2011 11:24:10 AM   
GreyJoy


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Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: princep01

Reek, you do know you can convert certain AKs to AP and then APA, correct? It isn't too late to convery some AP to APA and so forth. You will need them....and can't LST also carry infantry and land them effectively? Don't you have a surfeit of LCI and LSM? All these can carry and land infantry effectively (I think).


Master,

i have converted all the APs i could...but unfortunately most of them were lost during the Port Moresby "Tragedy" in late december 42...if you remember the KB arrived and smashed everything sinking nearly 100 valuable ships (CA, CLs, DDs, APs, AKs, CVEs etc etc)

So now i'm stuck with 15 APAs, 4 AKAs, and something like 20 AKs...not much, i know.
I swim in LSTs however... and i have some LCIs (not much...smething like 15)

Luckly enough i have an incredible quantity of xAKs and xAPs...i will be forced to use them too...will be using them in HUGE TFs so to load only a small portion of the units into every single civilian ship...i know it's not much but it's the best i can do right now.
That's also why Thousands sounds like a good target to me...it's not an atoll and i don't have to worry too much about the first 2/4 days...


(in reply to princep01)
Post #: 2671
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/29/2011 11:34:24 AM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

rough calc is 3 APA + 1 AKA per regiment. LSTs don't carry troops at all, use them for ARM & ART LCUs.

1st big hurdle in Amph ops is AmphTF composition, they can be up to 100 ships! it's v. important to have cruisers and DDs included, to suppress enemy defensive fire, but as these ships expend their hvy-gun ammo, you must cycle in add'l shooters for suppression. w/ 2-day turns, you'll need a greater amnt of shooters initially, since you can't cycle every turn. if you have sufficient DEs, consider using them in the accompanying CVE & ASW TFs.

always turn on 'do not load fuel', transports & LSTs w/ fuel on board burn really well. loading for Amph is a prob - the screens don't show the 20% load-penalty for combat-loading, you've got to do some pencil-calcs on your own. even when i do this correctly, sometimes a significant proportion of a large LCU won't be loaded - usually the 'support' elements. you'll be wanting to bring along generous amnts of supply, too. So for pencil-calcs, look at each LCU's troop/cargo load-sizes, & multiply them by at least 1.25 (for minimum needed) but mebbe more like 1.4 or 1.5 (to include lotsa supply) to get that LCU's amph-load req'ment.

iirc you said you have a ForceHQ, but don't have an AGC? i'm pert sure that a ForceHQ won't help unless it's loaded on an AGC that's part of the AmphTF. CVE TFs can accompany the AmphTF into the target hex, they won't take the shallow-hex air-ops penalty.

Going against the 1000-Islands target, i'd assume you'll want to get in, unload, & get your ships out as fast as possible - in this case go for min supply load, & plan on a quick follow-up TF w/ add'l supplies ASAP. for these TFs, think about Mission Speed to a hex adjacent to the target, way-pointed to arrive on the 2nd day of your 2-day turn. then in orders for D-day, switch to full-speed to maximize unloading time during the next night turn.

your assault on 1000 is a hvy tac prob - it doesn't look like you'll be faced w/ subs, but BB/CA TFs will react, & presumably multiple IJN MTB flotillas are available at the push of a button. so i'd advise you forgo pre-landing BBTF bombardments on D-day, keep your bigboys available to defend the AmphTF.



So to load a division (3 regiments) i'll need 9 APAs and 3 AKAs...gosh...!!! too much :-/

Ok, well, i'll use some xAPs too so....

However my idea is to bring the 4 Old BBs and some old CAs along with the Amphib TFs to supprress the shore guns, while my fast BBs will act as surface forces organized in SCTFs in order to protect the landing TFs against his surface raiders.
CAP will be provided by CVEs and squadrons based at Tulagi and Tassafaronga, while the CVs will remain east of Tulagi, ready to come in if needed.

Will be tough i know...the scale of this operation is already overwhelming me...but i need to start facing these aspects of the game
I have one more month of preparation...then we'll be ready!

August 25,26 1943

The good news is that CV BunkerHill arrived today, along with another fast BB (Alabama i think)...
Now i have 10 Fleet CVs, 3 CVLs and 10 CVEs...not bad....

For the rest everything is quiet in the Solomons...he moved his CAs to Rekata Bay...probably another Rader's push is coming....we'll be ready this time!

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 2672
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/29/2011 12:07:35 PM   
ny59giants


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For those more experienced than me in Allied Amphib operations, how much Naval Support to you bring along in an invasion like GJ is proposing?? Is an USN BF with 100 Naval Support helpful in speeding up the unloading process?? If not a BF, how about those little Port Services units??

GJ - I would look to form one of your CV TF with mostly BBs to soak up any torpedo strikes. The AI will direct Rader's naval attacks towards those BBs which you can afford to be damaged than your precious CVs.

_____________________________


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Post #: 2673
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/29/2011 5:35:39 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

For those more experienced than me in Allied Amphib operations, how much Naval Support to you bring along in an invasion like GJ is proposing?? Is an USN BF with 100 Naval Support helpful in speeding up the unloading process?? If not a BF, how about those little Port Services units??



Both are helpful, but of course the USN BF will take a lot longer to unload because of all the heavy devices like radar and motorized support. Also, you need to have those BFs at your naval bases, so maybe the little port service units are more helpful to get a new base up and running. If you are running Babes (highly recommended), remember that "Shore Party" attribute is what helps unload.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 2674
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/29/2011 10:04:34 PM   
GreyJoy


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August 27, 28 1943

Another quiet turn...with the usual bad luck with torpedoes...

SS Lapon fired a serie of salvos against a raider CVTF moving again north of Midway...going east....hit AO Erimo and CVE Hosho but both times we had a dud torp...

Rader keeps sending these raiding CVs....and i leave him doing it...i don't care cause i have nothing to lose up there...and i won't devote a single energy in chasing down those buggers....i leave the job to our subs....that should understand that they MUST do something better than that!!!


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Aug 27, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Aug 28, 43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Midway Island at 166,75

Japanese Ships
AO Erimo
AO Iro

Allied Ships
SS Lapon



SS Lapon launches 2 torpedoes at AO Erimo
Lapon diving deep ....
Sub escapes detection


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Midway Island at 166,75

Japanese Ships
CVE Hosho
DD Niizuki

Allied Ships
SS Lapon



SS Lapon launches 4 torpedoes at CVE Hosho
DD Niizuki fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Niizuki fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Niizuki fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Niizuki fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Niizuki fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub







Attachment (1)

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 2675
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/29/2011 10:06:13 PM   
GreyJoy


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I'm planning to use the Amphibious Bde that has 200 naval support points with it...that should be enough to help the unloading process....
I'll also try to use empy barges...read somehwere that they help, when empty, to speed the unloading of other ships....

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 2676
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/29/2011 10:08:42 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

For those more experienced than me in Allied Amphib operations, how much Naval Support to you bring along in an invasion like GJ is proposing?? Is an USN BF with 100 Naval Support helpful in speeding up the unloading process?? If not a BF, how about those little Port Services units??

GJ - I would look to form one of your CV TF with mostly BBs to soak up any torpedo strikes. The AI will direct Rader's naval attacks towards those BBs which you can afford to be damaged than your precious CVs.


I know mate...but as someone previously stated i'll surely face his BBs in this landing....and i need a shield to stop their attacks...and the only efficient shield i have are my fast BBs....so what to do!?

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Post #: 2677
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/29/2011 10:36:55 PM   
crsutton


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Joined: 12/6/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

rough calc is 3 APA + 1 AKA per regiment. LSTs don't carry troops at all, use them for ARM & ART LCUs.




Nope, LSTs do carry troops, just not as many. Try it. I just shuttled two infantry brigades in India using LST only. Five LSTs took about two trips per brigade but they carried everybody and all equipment. Can't recall if they were set on amphib or landing craft but it works. Nice quick unload too. Can't believe it took me this long to find out..

GJ, I have not had to try it but it is my understanding that you will want to mix half APA, AKA ships with xAP and xAK types as the APA and AKA will help the others unload faster and allow them to unload heavy equipment. I think this works with any ship that is suppose to have it's own landing craft. So not LSTs or LCIs but I am not sure. Can someone else confirm that this works. I have never done it so it is best to hear this from somebody who knows for sure.




< Message edited by crsutton -- 9/29/2011 10:48:39 PM >


_____________________________

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RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/29/2011 11:19:19 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

rough calc is 3 APA + 1 AKA per regiment. LSTs don't carry troops at all, use them for ARM & ART LCUs.




Nope, LSTs do carry troops, just not as many. Try it. I just shuttled two infantry brigades in India using LST only. Five LSTs took about two trips per brigade but they carried everybody and all equipment. Can't recall if they were set on amphib or landing craft but it works. Nice quick unload too. Can't believe it took me this long to find out..

GJ, I have not had to try it but it is my understanding that you will want to mix half APA, AKA ships with xAP and xAK types as the APA and AKA will help the others unload faster and allow them to unload heavy equipment. I think this works with any ship that is suppose to have it's own landing craft. So not LSTs or LCIs but I am not sure. Can someone else confirm that this works. I have never done it so it is best to hear this from somebody who knows for sure.





Thanks Crsutton. I was thinking about creating a big APA/AKA TF loading 2 divisions completely. Then creating another Amphibious TF only with xAPs and AKs and load 2 more Divisions. Then another one made by LSTs and LCI loading Artillery, HQs and tanks. When these 3 TFs are loaded i was plannning to melt them togheder in a single 100 Ships TF, followed by a TF composed only of xAKs loaded with 100,000 supplies only. Another TF composed of empty barges will be moving too. In my mind the APA/AKA should unload first and then help, along with the empty barges, the slower unloading ships....

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 2679
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/29/2011 11:29:03 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

rough calc is 3 APA + 1 AKA per regiment. LSTs don't carry troops at all, use them for ARM & ART LCUs.




Nope, LSTs do carry troops, just not as many. Try it. I just shuttled two infantry brigades in India using LST only. Five LSTs took about two trips per brigade but they carried everybody and all equipment. Can't recall if they were set on amphib or landing craft but it works. Nice quick unload too. Can't believe it took me this long to find out..

GJ, I have not had to try it but it is my understanding that you will want to mix half APA, AKA ships with xAP and xAK types as the APA and AKA will help the others unload faster and allow them to unload heavy equipment. I think this works with any ship that is suppose to have it's own landing craft. So not LSTs or LCIs but I am not sure. Can someone else confirm that this works. I have never done it so it is best to hear this from somebody who knows for sure.





Thanks Crsutton. I was thinking about creating a big APA/AKA TF loading 2 divisions completely. Then creating another Amphibious TF only with xAPs and AKs and load 2 more Divisions. Then another one made by LSTs and LCI loading Artillery, HQs and tanks. When these 3 TFs are loaded i was plannning to melt them togheder in a single 100 Ships TF, followed by a TF composed only of xAKs loaded with 100,000 supplies only. Another TF composed of empty barges will be moving too. In my mind the APA/AKA should unload first and then help, along with the empty barges, the slower unloading ships....



yes, this sounds like a good plan. And, you are testing it in a fairly safe location in case I am wrong.....

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 2680
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/29/2011 11:33:01 PM   
GreyJoy


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Status: offline
On a side note, I think it's interesting to report that the latest productions of this summer have encreased in a sensible manner our a/c pools situation.
Now we have 150 operative P-47s online and 150 P-38(G and H models). These guys, if backed up by P-40s (Ks and N1/5s) and by the Australian Kittihawk and SpitsVc can took the front line role of my Hellcats squadrons that will be transfered back to their CVs.
The Corsairs will remain on the front line.


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Post #: 2681
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/29/2011 11:54:24 PM   
Nemo121


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APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Don't learn bad habits. Here's my advice:
1. Load 1 division on xAPs and xAKs.
2. Load 1 division on APAs and AKAs.
3. Load 1 division on LSTs + load ALL your armoured units ONLY on LSTs

4. Have them all attack the same island. After 1 day check how much has unloaded from each of the ship types.

5. Fall in love wth LSTs as you realise how quickly they unload the armoured units ( and the infantry too ) and swear never to load your armoure on anything else ever again if you have a choice.

6. See the difference between your APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Note how much your APAs and AKAs unloaded in a single turn. Note this figure down for APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Reduce this by 20%. Whatever this figure is is the MAXIMUM amount of troops and non-supply cargo you EVER want on an APA or AKA when invading an atoll. Go over this figure and you may well find yourself shock attacing for two days and destroying divisions needlessly.


Obviously feel free to do it differently but at the very least do the 6th step with your APAs, AKAs, xAPs and xAKs so you can use this test run to prepare for atolls also.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 2682
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 12:10:03 AM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Don't learn bad habits. Here's my advice:
1. Load 1 division on xAPs and xAKs.
2. Load 1 division on APAs and AKAs.
3. Load 1 division on LSTs + load ALL your armoured units ONLY on LSTs

4. Have them all attack the same island. After 1 day check how much has unloaded from each of the ship types.

5. Fall in love wth LSTs as you realise how quickly they unload the armoured units ( and the infantry too ) and swear never to load your armoure on anything else ever again if you have a choice.

6. See the difference between your APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Note how much your APAs and AKAs unloaded in a single turn. Note this figure down for APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Reduce this by 20%. Whatever this figure is is the MAXIMUM amount of troops and non-supply cargo you EVER want on an APA or AKA when invading an atoll. Go over this figure and you may well find yourself shock attacing for two days and destroying divisions needlessly.


Obviously feel free to do it differently but at the very least do the 6th step with your APAs, AKAs, xAPs and xAKs so you can use this test run to prepare for atolls also.


I've read Michealm saying that APA/AKA, once completely unloaded, will help other slower ship to unload if in the same TF, thus rapresenting the help given by the APA's landing crafts to other ships which don't have them.
However, i'll follow your pattern and see how it goes.
Here at Thousands, anyway, my main concern will be his surface and air assets. If he manages to penetrate my shield of BB/CA/CLs....it is going to be bloody...something like a Leyte Gulf battle...

LST so? luckly i have enough of them... I'm planning to bring with me 2 armoured BNs and a tank destroyer BN...i should have enough LSTs for the three of them

Thanks Nemo

(in reply to Nemo121)
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RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 12:34:34 AM   
JohnDillworth


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another 2 cents on amphibious assualts.  One of the real dangers is running out of supplies after the first attack.  Always have another task force following the first that is loaded with supply.  Even if it is just AKx's set as amphibious, you will be glad to have it.  Divisions have been lost on amphibious assaults after they ran out of supply.  Can't have enough.


_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

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RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 1:02:03 AM   
Dan Nichols


Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Don't learn bad habits. Here's my advice:
1. Load 1 division on xAPs and xAKs.
2. Load 1 division on APAs and AKAs.
3. Load 1 division on LSTs + load ALL your armoured units ONLY on LSTs

4. Have them all attack the same island. After 1 day check how much has unloaded from each of the ship types.

5. Fall in love wth LSTs as you realise how quickly they unload the armoured units ( and the infantry too ) and swear never to load your armoure on anything else ever again if you have a choice.

6. See the difference between your APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Note how much your APAs and AKAs unloaded in a single turn. Note this figure down for APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Reduce this by 20%. Whatever this figure is is the MAXIMUM amount of troops and non-supply cargo you EVER want on an APA or AKA when invading an atoll. Go over this figure and you may well find yourself shock attacing for two days and destroying divisions needlessly.


Obviously feel free to do it differently but at the very least do the 6th step with your APAs, AKAs, xAPs and xAKs so you can use this test run to prepare for atolls also.


I've read Michealm saying that APA/AKA, once completely unloaded, will help other slower ship to unload if in the same TF, thus rapresenting the help given by the APA's landing crafts to other ships which don't have them.
However, i'll follow your pattern and see how it goes.
Here at Thousands, anyway, my main concern will be his surface and air assets. If he manages to penetrate my shield of BB/CA/CLs....it is going to be bloody...something like a Leyte Gulf battle...

LST so? luckly i have enough of them... I'm planning to bring with me 2 armoured BNs and a tank destroyer BN...i should have enough LSTs for the three of them

Thanks Nemo



I don't remember reading about AKA/APA helping when empty, but he or Don did say that LSTs, LCIs, etc will help unload the other ships when they are empty. I believe that it is any ship that can beach.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
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RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 2:18:23 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.




Nope, never xAPs or xAks for an atoll. But one of the developers did say in a thread that the landing craft ships will help them unload faster. Just have never tried it myself. But would never consider it for an atoll due to the shock attacks. Everything must go ashore the first day.

LST is the Allies' wonder weapon. It is why Allies can build up and support 0 port bases all over the map. LCT is pretty helpful too. Something very difficult for the Japanese player to pull off.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 2686
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 2:23:05 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.




Nope, never xAPs or xAks for an atoll. But one of the developers did say in a thread that the landing craft ships will help them unload faster. (Can't recall which ships but AKA and APA had the type of landing craft that could off load any neighboring ship whereas LST and LCI are ships in themselves and would not be much use for this.) Just have never tried it myself. But would never consider it for an atoll due to the shock attacks. Everything must go ashore the first day. GJ is in a pickle due to heavy losses and is going to have to try this out sooner or later.

LST is the Allies' wonder weapon. It is why Allies can build up and support 0 port bases all over the map. LCT is pretty helpful too. Something very difficult for the Japanese player to pull off.



_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 2687
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 2:32:37 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Don't learn bad habits. Here's my advice:
1. Load 1 division on xAPs and xAKs.
2. Load 1 division on APAs and AKAs.
3. Load 1 division on LSTs + load ALL your armoured units ONLY on LSTs

4. Have them all attack the same island. After 1 day check how much has unloaded from each of the ship types.

5. Fall in love wth LSTs as you realise how quickly they unload the armoured units ( and the infantry too ) and swear never to load your armoure on anything else ever again if you have a choice.

6. See the difference between your APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Note how much your APAs and AKAs unloaded in a single turn. Note this figure down for APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Reduce this by 20%. Whatever this figure is is the MAXIMUM amount of troops and non-supply cargo you EVER want on an APA or AKA when invading an atoll. Go over this figure and you may well find yourself shock attacing for two days and destroying divisions needlessly.


Obviously feel free to do it differently but at the very least do the 6th step with your APAs, AKAs, xAPs and xAKs so you can use this test run to prepare for atolls also.


I've read Michealm saying that APA/AKA, once completely unloaded, will help other slower ship to unload if in the same TF, thus rapresenting the help given by the APA's landing crafts to other ships which don't have them.
However, i'll follow your pattern and see how it goes.
Here at Thousands, anyway, my main concern will be his surface and air assets. If he manages to penetrate my shield of BB/CA/CLs....it is going to be bloody...something like a Leyte Gulf battle...

LST so? luckly i have enough of them... I'm planning to bring with me 2 armoured BNs and a tank destroyer BN...i should have enough LSTs for the three of them

Thanks Nemo



OK, first off Michael and/or Don did say that the attack transports (APA/AKA) help other ships after they themselves are unloaded. Nemo is right - do not rely on that for the assault landing. Your assault troops should (ideally) be able to unload in one day or less (less because sometimes ops points get used up in unexpected ways).

Here is the manual section on Amphibious unloading:
quote:

6.3.3.3.2 AMPHIBIOUS UNLOADING
The Amphibious Unload Rate bonus applies only to ships in an Amphibious TF. Amphibious
Unload rates are determined by ship type (i.e., beaching craft, amphibious ship types,
or ordinary transport/cargo ship types). There are no Port-derived cargo handling limits.
Amphibious Unload only applies to Troops and Cargo (equipment and supply). Amphibious
Unload does not apply to Fuel, Oil or Resources. Note that there is also an “initial operations”
bonus for the Japanese during the first 4 months of the war.

Amphibious Unload may be used in two situations: an assault unloads over the beach, and
amphibious unload in a small friendly port. Amphibious Unload Rate bonuses differ for the two
situations.

6.3.3.3.2.1 OVER THE BEACH
This is for assault unloading over the beach.

» Beaching Craft. Beaching craft unload completely in one turn.

» Attack Amphibious Ships. (APA/AKA plus LSD, LSV and British equivalents)
in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 3000 points per ship, per turn.

» Regular Transport Ships. (Commissioned Naval AP/AK) in Amphibious
TFs, unload at a Rate of 600 points per ship per turn.

» Merchant Ships. (xAP/xAK) in Amphibious TFs, unload
at a Rate of 250 points per ship per turn.

» Special Japanese early war bonus of 1200 for all AP/AK and xAP/xAK types.

6.3.3.3.2.2 FRIENDLY PORT
For Amphibious docked at and unloading in a friendly port of Size 4 or less, the unload rate is
slightly different for Troops and Cargo.

» Beaching Craft. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Attack Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Regular Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 300 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 300 points per ship per turn.

» Merchant Ships. Troops unload at a Rate of 125 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 125 points per ship per turn.

Amphibious TFs not docked at a friendly port unload at a different rate, depending on port
size, amount of free dock space, and the types of ships in the TFs. Amphibious ship types, with
attached landing craft, will unload faster than non-amphibious ships.


Notice the unload rates for the various kinds of ships! BTW, IIRC "per turn" in this section means "per phase" there being two phases each turn. Somebody sing out if I have that wrong.

After the turn of landing, which has a mandatory shock attack, remember to turn off that shock attack on all units or you will gut them as Nemo noted.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 2688
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 3:38:48 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
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From: Seoul, Korea
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I think GreyJoy is going to land at Thousand Ship's Bay (sp?), which is part of a large island, so there won't be a shock attack as if it were an atoll. He only has to survive Rader's counterattack on Day 3. So, with two days to land there should be plenty of time to unload a good chunk of forces even with xAPs and xAKs. Those Eng Amph Brigades also seem to help a lot on invasions.

I would also recommend having a few ships with only supplies on board, so no matter what, some supplies will reach the troops. Also, I hope those units are prepped well. The lower the prep, the more disruption you get on landings like this.

One final thing I learned the hard way is to have all amph TFs "follow" your main fast BB TF. Otherwise, enemy SCTFs will hit the wrong TF first.

Cheers,
CC

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Post #: 2689
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 1:29:58 PM   
Crackaces


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GJ:

The picture below illistrates a landing of a RAF BF on a friendly unoccupied base [Akyab] using 8xAP's and 1 xAK. At D-Day + 1 I have about 1900 troops and some supplies ashore. My calculations tell me that about 250 units[troop/cargo/supplies] per day per ship have been landed not per phase. The other observation is that when supplies and troops are combined on the same boat they are off loaded rather equally. Telling me .. no supplies on the troop boats and have extra boats to land supplies. [Here I do not care since the hex is mine and empty]. Also you can see the advice Nemo had about heavy equipment. None of that is on the ground yet.

This is a friendly hex .. I could imagine the effects of that intial "surf penality" that seems to be a random number up to %10 influenced by variables that I will leave to the experts in this thread. But I am thinking a 10% pad on top of what is needed to ensure 2:1 adjusted AV.

Main point: In my limited experience I would calculate the number as per day and load the AmphibTF accordingly to achieve maximum AV required to allow the landing to stick.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 2690
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 1:54:32 PM   
GreyJoy


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Status: offline
Thanks again guys for all your efforts!

Crackeces, i don't think with an amphib TF can load "only" troops and not supplies...in my experiences, whatever you tell it to do, it will always load also supplies on the amphib TF.
Moreoveri don't know if the supplies unloaded from a different TF are "transfered" automaticaly and immediately at the troops ashore or if this tranfer takes some time (1 phase, 1 day, 1 turn...)

CC is right...in this particular occasion i'll have 2 full days of landing before he can attack me back...and there won't be any shock attack...so it should be fine whatever mistake i do...anyway i need to learn how to face the atolls, so better to do things properly and to study the results...

Obviously all my plans could be destroyed by Rader sinking my transport fleet or savaging her while unloading... will be a landing in hostile waters with an enemy at full strenght and full attention....will be damned risky! Will probably be stupid....will surely be glorious

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 2691
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 3:07:37 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Notice the unload rates for the various kinds of ships! BTW, IIRC "per turn" in this section means "per phase" there being two phases each turn. Somebody sing out if I have that wrong.

After the turn of landing, which has a mandatory shock attack, remember to turn off that shock attack on all units or you will gut them as Nemo noted.


What constitutes a point ? I am assuming it is the load cost of the device - load cost 6 = 6 points to unload. Is that correct ? What about supply ? Is 1 unit of supply = 1 point ?

Xargun

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 2692
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 3:09:35 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Obviously all my plans could be destroyed by Rader sinking my transport fleet or savaging her while unloading... will be a landing in hostile waters with an enemy at full strenght and full attention....will be damned risky! Will probably be stupid....will surely be glorious


Since you are using 2 day turns you will unload a lot on that first 'turn' - you only have to worry about his 'reactive' forces and nothing planned. If you get hammered bad by air power on the first 'turn' you can always retreat on turn 2 after unloading the bulk of your forces. This will protect your precious transports - or you can do what I do a lot of times - I transfer all the empty ships into their own TF and pull them back so you are not risking ships that will do nothing for you.

Xargun

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 2693
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 5:58:10 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Notice the unload rates for the various kinds of ships! BTW, IIRC "per turn" in this section means "per phase" there being two phases each turn. Somebody sing out if I have that wrong.

After the turn of landing, which has a mandatory shock attack, remember to turn off that shock attack on all units or you will gut them as Nemo noted.


What constitutes a point ? I am assuming it is the load cost of the device - load cost 6 = 6 points to unload. Is that correct ? What about supply ? Is 1 unit of supply = 1 point ?

Xargun



I don't worry about the calculations. Use Tracker to look at the LCU, and in the far right-hand column - I forget the column label - you will find the total for the unit. Note it is the same unit as for island stacking calculations. As far as supply goes, I guess 1 supply = 1 point. When you look at the ship, each point of capacity is what they mean. So if a ship has 1,200 troop capacity and 1,000 cargo capacity then AFAIK that means 2,200 "points" to get unloaded (provided the ship is full).

Edit to add: correct my post by looking at the manual section above. Notice that actual "cargo" has a different unloading rate for some ship types. But AFAIK troops (think radars, motorized support, etc.) in the loaded in the cargo section still unload at the troops rate. Query a developer to be sure.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 9/30/2011 6:08:54 PM >

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 2694
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 6:06:53 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

GJ:

The picture below illistrates a landing of a RAF BF on a friendly unoccupied base [Akyab] using 8xAP's and 1 xAK. At D-Day + 1 I have about 1900 troops and some supplies ashore. My calculations tell me that about 250 units[troop/cargo/supplies] per day per ship have been landed not per phase. The other observation is that when supplies and troops are combined on the same boat they are off loaded rather equally. Telling me .. no supplies on the troop boats and have extra boats to land supplies. [Here I do not care since the hex is mine and empty]. Also you can see the advice Nemo had about heavy equipment. None of that is on the ground yet.

This is a friendly hex .. I could imagine the effects of that intial "surf penality" that seems to be a random number up to %10 influenced by variables that I will leave to the experts in this thread. But I am thinking a 10% pad on top of what is needed to ensure 2:1 adjusted AV.

Main point: In my limited experience I would calculate the number as per day and load the AmphibTF accordingly to achieve maximum AV required to allow the landing to stick.







Remember that amphibious unloading in a friendly port is different - and slower - than assault amphibious unloading. You mention using xAPs and an xAK for the test. Those are classified as Merchant Ships (indicated by the lower-case 'x' prefix). Again here is that part of the manual (from the post above):

quote:

6.3.3.3.2.2 FRIENDLY PORT
For Amphibious docked at and unloading in a friendly port of Size 4 or less, the unload rate is
slightly different for Troops and Cargo.

» Beaching Craft. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Attack Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Regular Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 300 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 300 points per ship per turn.

» Merchant Ships. Troops unload at a Rate of 125 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 125 points per ship per turn.


Amphibious TFs not docked at a friendly port unload at a different rate, depending on port
size, amount of free dock space, and the types of ships in the TFs. Amphibious ship types, with
attached landing craft, will unload faster than non-amphibious ships.


I've put in bold the section that deals with vessels classified as Merchant Ships for loading/unloading purposes. The unload rate is cited as "125 points per ship per turn". You measured getting 250 points per ship per turn. So the results of your test confirm my memory (of reading a developer's post) that where that section of the manual says "turn" they meant "phase".

If you look at the manual section of loading and unloading rates, just remember to double the figures to get the whole-day rates. Of course, Michael is working on various updates to the manual so be on the look out for that language to potentially be corrected.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 9/30/2011 6:09:56 PM >

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 2695
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 6:27:03 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
Perhaps we can ask an AI player (they are useful after all ) to run a test with a pure AKA, APA force, mixed, and then a force with none.

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Post #: 2696
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 7:06:05 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Perhaps we can ask an AI player (they are useful after all ) to run a test with a pure AKA, APA force, mixed, and then a force with none.


Personally I wouldn't bother because I can't see relying on that for an assault landing. It could help with unloading the garrison and support troops after base is captured.

BTW, IIRC (big emphasis on IF) the APA/AKA do not need to be in the same TF as the ships they are helping unload.

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Post #: 2697
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 9/30/2011 10:25:02 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Perhaps we can ask an AI player (they are useful after all ) to run a test with a pure AKA, APA force, mixed, and then a force with none.


Personally I wouldn't bother because I can't see relying on that for an assault landing. It could help with unloading the garrison and support troops after base is captured.

BTW, IIRC (big emphasis on IF) the APA/AKA do not need to be in the same TF as the ships they are helping unload.


Nah, let one of those far superior PBEM players try it for themselves, how else you you expect to learn.

My system is to have my assault force have "enough" supply with it, a supply TF land at the same time and reinforcing LCU & Supply TF's a day behind. I found (may be a coincidence) that the second wave is very effective at winning the base as the defenders have been disrupted by the day 1 landings.

Grayjoy, dont forget to have a plan B, just in case he manages to hold you on the beaches. Reinforce, Retreat,whatever. Dont do a Rader and not know what to do when it goes pearshape.

PS. Do you still have some Paras and transports in the area??

Maybe a paradrop on Ontong Java, assuming its empty, the day before might get him reacting that way and give you an extra dyas grace?


< Message edited by JeffK -- 9/30/2011 10:29:20 PM >


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Post #: 2698
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 10/1/2011 6:12:25 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


Grayjoy, dont forget to have a plan B, just in case he manages to hold you on the beaches. Reinforce, Retreat,whatever. Dont do a Rader and not know what to do when it goes pearshape.

PS. Do you still have some Paras and transports in the area??

Maybe a paradrop on Ontong Java, assuming its empty, the day before might get him reacting that way and give you an extra dyas grace?




A plan B....well, considering how close the target base is to my major bases, i should be able to reinforce my invasion force pretty easily or to dunkirk it if the the bad boys are too well dug in.
Ontong Java is already occupied by 2 Naval Guards Units...i had been reconning it for months now...I have paras, the equivalent of 2 full regiments....but i'd like to preserve the integrity of this great force for something more than a diversion...however i keep them at hand at Ndeni, along with 170 transport planes...just in case...along with 2 raiders BNs...

the game has slowed down this week cause Rader was travelling and the next one will be even slower cause i'm moving to Africa for a brief vacation with my GF...hopefully i'll get some internet access there but it will be no wonder if i will have trouble sending lot of turns back.
Hope to get some 6/7 turns between today and monday

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 2699
RE: The Stone and the Waves - 10/1/2011 6:36:10 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline

Last map made it look empty.

Have you any other options to create a small diversion to get raders attention, even if it only gains you 1 turn.


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