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What is the point of HVY?

 
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What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 12:31:38 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		As I understand the system 1 pt resoure and 1 pt hvy make supplie.

HVY 236

Res 136

No one is even ecaving hvy any more so basicly you can easly takeout 84 hvy easly and another 21 between Leningrad and Moscow so 106 if your kicking butt.

BUT that means you have take atleast 56 res so you have 80 Res and 131 hvy pts left.

So basicly its impossible to have issue with HVY industry.

So you can have a RES crunch, but the german can really only hang onto 35 after winter.

I am not sure who thought up the hole HVY industry thing, but its kinda

Also the manpower issues are not really going to effect the size of the Russian army that much. Mybee 10,000 men per turn. So instead of 120,000 men a turn they get 110,000 a turn.

As of now any Russian with a little smarts will give away the front 30ish arm pts and all the hvy and be able to evac more then enough arm pts so his army is not impacted for the rest of the war.

Make hvy something other then window dressing or lower the russian rail system about 20% or just throw out the stupid HVY all together.

Pelton
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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 12:41:53 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
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Status: offline 		I have noticed as I focus on Soviet play lately the ease at getting out APs. Maybe make it so every point of AP taken from a city you need to take a point of HI.

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 12:59:01 AM   
stone10


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Status: offline 		I think that will encourage the German player going mad for industry rather than pocketing.

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 1:20:07 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		And what is wrong with that? The Axis army suffers from a limitation of objectives (just ask Pelton). Allowing them to target more than just the Soviet Army would open up more options for them and more reasons to attack after 1941.

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 1:37:58 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
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Status: offline 		Vs a good Russian player its next to impossible to pocket anything or get close to the historical 4 million dead ruusians.
Its not possible to come close to the historical Russian losses in industry.

Basicly at this point the Russian can with draw 10 hexes a turn in the south.
Moscow is not really takeable.
Leningrad is a hard nut to crack and basicly not worth bothering over unless the Russian player is handing it to you.

The only reason as the German player you bother going east is to gain space and see if you enemy is any good. If hes not that good you can trash him, if he is hes just going to run like a hill billy.

Right now there is now reason to fight as the Russian or that matter the German.

The Russians can out run and evac the German and the German cant get to anything so why bother moving east just diggin.



Pelton

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 3:29:56 AM   
Wild


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Status: offline 		Could not agree more.
Please make Heavy industry worth something. It should be one of the most important factors but instead it's worthless. I think it's a real travesty that industry,resources,oil and railcap have not been thought out better. Please Dev's give this some much needed attention!!!

Cities in general must become more important for the good of the game, otherwise it becomes rather one dimensional.

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 4:54:22 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
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Status: offline 		I predict that the current (over?) emphasis on saving Armaments at the expense of vehicles and HI is going to prove to be a little short-sighted. As the late-war Soviet industry expands, and the number of tubes that need to be fed on a continual basis increases, not to mention the recently instituted supply cost for fortifications, and I think that supplies are going to be scarcer than expected.

I'm not saying that Armament Points are not the first major bottleneck to be encountered in the game for the Soviets. I believe that to be the case at the moment. However, as the game goes on, I'm expecting that manpower and supplies are going to be likely problems for the Soviets.

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 6:49:38 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Moscow is not really takeable.
Leningrad is a hard nut to crack and basicly not worth bothering over unless the Russian player is handing it to you.


Not sure how you can say that Moscow and Lgrad are hard to take; Lgrad fell regularly in prior patches, and should be even easier to take now with the fort nerf. Moscow has always been harder to take, but still falls pretty regularly as far as I can tell.

If in fact these cities are being taken less often now, I think the problem is that no one is trying very hard at this point because there is really not much (any?) reason to take them.

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 6:53:28 AM   
KenchiSulla


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Status: offline 		So because you can't damage it, it shouldn't be in the game? We should cut the map just east of Moscow....

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 7:06:49 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Leningrad is hardly a tough nut to crack. It falls in the vast majority of games -- even the best Soviet defense of the backdoor cannot stop a determined German assault across the Neva, or not forever. (James had to take 4 cracks at it in our recent game before succeeding, but he eventually got accross.)

Any German who knows what they are doing and wants it will take it. It's even easier to take now than before with fort changes.

As for Moscow not being takeable. I'm quite possibly going to lose it in my game with James.

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 1:29:08 PM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		I agree that Leningrad is just as easy to take if not easier. The prime difference is the Germans are moving away from consistently making it the big target of 1941 like they have in past AAR's and instead seem to be concentrating more in the south where the armaments are at. Also, the Russians have evolved tactics that make getting the stuff out of Leningrad a priority, so it is not as valuble of a prize. IMO, this is a good start down the road to offering advantages/disadvantages to making the main offensive effort have some variety. In the past, it was pretty much a no brainer to make Leningrad the target because it offered the most tangible benefit to the Axis for its capture (release of the Finns and securing the left flank). Now there is a tangible benefit for the Axis to operate in the south to go after the armamants plants and the Axis must choose. Doing something to make Moscow a little more valuble would help as well to give both the Axis more choices and also the Russians more choices in terms of what to defend.

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 4:48:45 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Doing something to make Moscow a little more valuble would help as well to give both the Axis more choices and also the Russians more choices in terms of what to defend.


Admittedly, in most of my Axis games, I have ended up changing strategic goals during the Summer and Fall to prioritize various 'non-Moscow' objectives. For example last minute dashes into the Donets basin, Crimea, Leningrad, elimination of Soviet forces, or just capturing real estate in the "great chewy center" between Kharkov and Tula. However, that is a product of me trying different things, and getting hopelessly distracted. That said, I have never just thought that Moscow wasn't valuable enough to attempt taking. Further, in order to make good progress anywhere else often hinges on how credible a threat you can manage to put Moscow under.

With all the industry, rail capacity, and manpower that is in Moscow, it is a big, juicy target. With the woods, and large number of size 4 towns surrounding it, it becomes a good wintering place for the Wehrmacht. I think that Moscow has a lot going for it as a primary target in the game, or at least a strong secondary. Even if the Axis player fails to take it, the threat of taking it can cause the Soviet player to evacuate the industry, leaving his production reduced during the period of time in which it takes to undergo the repairs.

In short, I think that there are already plenty of reasons, in the game, to try and take Moscow. I don't see the need to add any special rules, or hits to the Soviets should it fall.

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/7/2011 5:55:45 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
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Status: offline 		Moscow is kind of an all or nothing. If you fall short, you get nothing, because there is no industry at all short of Moscow. I do see the value in it, holding it really screws up the Soviet Railnet, in terms of capacity and lines, aside from all the industry.

Still prefer the south.

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/8/2011 7:20:50 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
...holding it really screws up the Soviet Railnet, in terms of capacity and lines, aside from all the industry.



But how important is screwing up the rail net at this point? By the time Moscow has fallen, the Sovs should have evacced all threatened factories, and the masses of reinforcements appearing in the Urals are no more.

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/10/2011 4:10:49 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Make hvy something other then window dressing or lower the russian rail system about 20% or just throw out the stupid HVY all together.

Pelton


While I agree with Pelton's premise that HI should have a reason for existing, as one who prefers to play the Soviets, I found this comment amusing.

Soviet arms multiplier got slashed from 200 to 130 after 1941 in version 1.0.5. I have to get every arms factory out that is humanly possible. What other choice am I left with since once they are destroyed they are gone forever as apparently the game designers determined that it takes more than 3-4 years to build one from scratch in the Urals.

I can't afford to commit railcap to take out an HI that costs almost twice what an arms point does and given the Axis rate of advance through Russia. Never mind that the tank factories are evacuated at a mere fraction of what is in place and the vehicle factories have to be left for dead as well. But you'll throw me a bone by not forcing me to evacuate the HI factories which I wasn't planning on doing anyways as I have no real choice, if my railcap gets cut 20%.

The factory raiding strategy that is in vogue with certain Axis players makes me wonder how this might have played out in real life. I can see Der Fuhrer at one of his planning conferences just prior to the invasion.

No Halder, the Soviet Army is meaningless! I tell you that it is the factories of the Bolsheviks which must be targeted for destruction. Without arms and ammunition they cannot wage war. I now demand daily reports from the Abwehr on the state of every factory of the Soviet Union so as to benefit from our perfect intelligence. I will then direct each week where the armies are to be moved so that we eliminate these factories, and you must plan accordingly the movements and combat actions of over three million men and our allies; transmitting these orders to the field without delay. You must be prepared to do all of this in the course of a week, each and every week, until the industrial capacity of the USSR is crippled.

And what are the chances that this conversation would have happened in reality?




< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 10/10/2011 4:12:54 PM >

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/10/2011 4:42:45 PM   
heliodorus04


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Status: offline 		The reason Armament Factories are in vogue is because casualties are a non-starter because running away from Poland and the Baltics is the strategy that is in vogue with the Soviets, and because game mechanics inflict no strategic consequence (of significance) for doing so.

What Soviet players aren't apparently realizing is that impossibility of reaching 4 to 5 million casualties, plus the unnecessary industry types (everything but armaments), plus the ease with which armaments can be evacuated is putting the strategic initiative in the Soviet player's hands.  The Soviet complete C&C/strategic rail allowances mean the Soviet can delay all but the best German players (and Pelton is unarguably top 5) from taking more than 35 or so armament points.

All strategic power is in the Soviet hands, and turns 1 through 25 are an exercise by the Axis player of delaying the rate of growth of the red army. 

That is ALL THIS GAME ALLOWS GERMANY TO DO!


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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/10/2011 4:56:46 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The reason armament factories are in vogue is because most Axis players haven't figured out the stuff that my opponent James has. When they do, they'll be lot more scary. He doesn't chase factories. He grinds the Red Army. And I mean grind, not pocket.





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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/10/2011 5:07:04 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The reason armament factories are in vogue is because most Axis players haven't figured out the stuff that my opponent James has. When they do, they'll be lot more scary. He doesn't chase factories. He grinds the Red Army. And I mean grind, not pocket.





Is there an AAR?

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Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/10/2011 5:22:52 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		It's a tester game, so there's no public AAR. All I can say is: learn to cleave. There's some decent examples of cleaving in BG's game by Q-ball, though.



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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/10/2011 7:11:51 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		A couple things. First, I'm not sure if it's running away from the Baltics or being destroyed there.  The truth is somewhere in between.  Northwest Front loses between 30-40% of front line strength in the first two turns of the game as the pockets are formed and units forced to surrender.  About another third isn't really close to AG North.  So what remains is just enough to screen Pskov on turn two and go from there.  From there pretty much means establishing two lines of defense along the only naturally defensive terrain, first at Pskov, and then at the Luga River.  After that, we're at Leningrad.  So I'm not exactly loaded with a plethora of choices here.

Second, I would love to stick around and fight.  I really would, that's my nature- I don't want to be a 17 week punching bag.  But I must report "been there and done that" and must say only bad things happen. glvaca can tell you all about that, assuming he shows up on the forum again some day.

The Soviet mechanized forces, requiring 16 mp for a deliberate attack make them one-shot wonders at best.  After that, they're stuck in place and just waiting to be bypassed.  Soviet infantry attacks are simillarly suicidal for all the known reasons, poor morale, no experience, etc.  Typical deliberate attack result: Axis losses 212, Soviet losses 6,300.  Then afterwards, these same rifle units get pocketed and surrender the following week without fail.  Maybe one even becomes a partisan that will destroy a rail hex in 4 -6 months.  Something to eagerly look forward to . 

What I'm saying is that while we look at the same issues with different colored glasses, we do share the same dilemnas.  Namely, we are restricted to a few best options that we have to go with given the rules of the game.  Give me a chance to inflict some decent casualties during attacks on the Axis, with some prospect of survival and I'll stay and fight.  But commit suicide, I won't. 

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/10/2011 7:43:34 PM   
kirkgregerson

 

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Status: offline 		M60A3TTS,

It really depends on what your trying to accomplish with your attacks as the Soviets in sum/fall 41. I would use my attacks sparingly in order to possibly free a pocket, pocket some axis units, or pick off a weak axis mobile unit. You have to understand that most attacks the Soviets attempted in sum/fall 41 were basically suicidal in their outcome. Soviet players have this hindsight to already know to limit attacks based on common knowledge. Personally, the changes in v1.05 were much needed to bring about a much more realistic 42.
Kudos to the devs for finally taking that step.

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/10/2011 9:22:51 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		I agree with you.  Trouble is, again from a Soviet standpoint I don't have a lot to work with.  High movement costs to break Axis controlled hexes means you're generally restricted to one or two hexes at best.  In most cases that won't do in busting a pocket which is why skilled Axis players develop their craft at sealing the Lvov pocket.  Pocket some axis units strictly to deny them supply for a week, sure, we will do that.  Pick off a weak mobile axis units, again sure, when they're found and that isn't often. 

Yes, changes were needed to rebalance '42.  Question is- with the morale changes how much has it unbalanced '41?  

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/10/2011 10:28:58 PM   
Michael T


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quote:

The reason armament factories are in vogue is because most Axis players haven't figured out the stuff that my opponent James has


I couldn't agree more with this. I spend more time actually analysing and testing than playing. The armaments chase is futile. There is more than one way to skin a cat. After hours of testing I have figured a way to get even more fuel to my Panzers. But no way I will be disclosing it. Go figure it yourselves :)

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 10:34:06 AM   
Peltonx


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Status: offline 		Bump

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 10:45:28 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stone10

I think that will encourage the German player going mad for industry rather than pocketing.


Pocketing is not possible because of the exploit.

Russian players simply evac and run in the south, then reenforse Moscow to Leningrad. They can also evac Leningrad faster then you can get to it so losing it means nothing. The manpower hit is meanless at this time in game.

So pocketing units is next to impossible vs a normal russian player.

Follow the 1.05 AAR's every russian player is using this exploit to death and are more then proud to jump up and down about it.

Basicly at this point getting to even 3 million dead russians is very hard because they can leave 75% of the front open. They can retreat much much faster then railheads can get close to there retreats to east.

I was pocketing 12 to 15 units a turn vs Flaviusx in south and he figured what was the point of losing troops and just ran east. I can't blame him why fight? all his armerment points were evaced so he just marched east.

Over 60% of the front became dead after turn 10.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/20/2011 10:49:34 AM >

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 11:58:00 AM   
Oskkar

 

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Status: offline 		Compared with the initial release of the game

a) the armament soviet multiplier has been reduced
b) the evacuation rail costs have been doubled

both of these modifications help the German cause, but they are seen by Pelton as a Soviet conspiration concocted by the soviet fanboyism of the developers.

As a consequence of those modifications, many Soviet players feel that they only can evacuate what they perceive as their most vital asset: armament points. This means that Heavy Industry has less priority. Calling it a exploit, given the path taken to arrive at this point, is a real joke. But the funny thing is that the same links that Pelton provides only weaken his position. Although most industrial production was lost, most arms production was saved. He deliberately hides this point. It was the civilian industry the one lost to the Germans (chessboard factories, rocking-chairs factories, and so on ). That is the fact. About the fate of Heavy Industry, I do not really know, BUT THE LINK HE HIMSELF PROVIDED SHOWS THAT MOST OF IT WAS LOST. Pelton very dishonestly hides this fact in his neverending rants.





< Message edited by Oskkar -- 10/20/2011 12:11:37 PM >

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 12:22:28 PM   
wosung

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oskkar
He deliberately hides this point. It was the civilian industry the one lost to the Germans (chessboard factories, rocking-chairs factories, and so on ). That is the fact. About the fate of Heavy Industry, I do not really know, BUT THE LINK HE HIMSELF PROVIDED SHOWS THAT MOST OF IT WAS LOST. Pelton very dishonestly hides this fact in their neverending rants.


Now you've outed yourself as one of those few *hardliners* Pelton as speaker of *all sides* stands up against to defend *fair balance*.

Even if HI or evac model would be changed somehow in WitE, fact remains that Soviet Union outproduced Germany in every war year. And it did so in the first years of Russo-German war with less ressources than Germany. Because of more ruthless management and far mor ruthless cuts in the civilian sector.

As for Pelton's sources: Apparently he very much likes to turn them upside down. Same with the rail capacity is broken discussion. Pelton's source: "Soviet RR backwardness and lacking German prep. costed the Germans dearly"
Pelton: Soviet RR was primitive! Game is broken!"

Regards


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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 12:23:51 PM   
vlcz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oskkar
..That is the fact. About the fate of Heavy Industry, I do not really know, BUT THE LINK HE HIMSELF PROVIDED SHOWS THAT MOST OF IT WAS LOST. Pelton very dishonestly hides this fact in his neverending rants.


We can think anyway about Pelton ,you , me or Genghis Khan, but it is NOT sound design that the loss of 100 HVY industry , means NOTHING...Other than as soviet I can use a MILLION rail points in something useful instead



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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 12:37:12 PM   
Oskkar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vlcz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oskkar
..That is the fact. About the fate of Heavy Industry, I do not really know, BUT THE LINK HE HIMSELF PROVIDED SHOWS THAT MOST OF IT WAS LOST. Pelton very dishonestly hides this fact in his neverending rants.


We can think anyway about Pelton ,you , me or Genghis Khan, but it is NOT sound design that the loss of 100 HVY industry , means NOTHING...Other than as soviet I can use a MILLION rail points in something useful instead





What is Heavy Industry?
How do you know its loss means nothing?

< Message edited by Oskkar -- 10/20/2011 12:40:01 PM >

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RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 12:37:46 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The reason armament factories are in vogue is because most Axis players haven't figured out the stuff that my opponent James has. When they do, they'll be lot more scary. He doesn't chase factories. He grinds the Red Army. And I mean grind, not pocket.


I completely endorse this.

Pocketing for the sake of pocketing doesn't mean a damn until the Soviets don't get the units rebuilt for free (or one pockets 1/3 of the Red Army in one go). Cadres can be managed, they're a complete non-issue from the organizational perspective if the Soviet player micromanages properly Refit and TOE levels. I would even go as far as saying it even slows the Axis and blunts their operational edge. Cleaving, as in smashing good Soviet formations in a consistent while also pursuing consistently clearly set out objectives is the way to go. Pockets will eventually come down on Axis players as a ripe fruit does from a tree.

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