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The 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 & L/48 in TOAW

 
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The 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 & L/48 in TOAW - 10/8/2011 12:34:04 AM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		Well I'm currently digging thru a lot stuff to get the tank units for "Braunschweig" right and now I'm stuck with the 7.5 cm KwK 40 simply because I can't understand why the L/43 on the Panzer IV/F2 gets an AT value of 8 but the L/48 on Panzer IVH gets 11.
Looking at some results the L/10 was even under best circumstances only around 13% better, so an AT value of 9 seem to be better.
Can anyone explain why the L/48 as an AT value of 11?

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RE: The 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 & L/48 in TOAW - 10/8/2011 9:43:03 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Well I'm currently digging thru a lot stuff to get the tank units for "Braunschweig" right and now I'm stuck with the 7.5 cm KwK 40 simply because I can't understand why the L/43 on the Panzer IV/F2 gets an AT value of 8 but the L/48 on Panzer IVH gets 11.
Looking at some results the L/10 was even under best circumstances only around 13% better, so an AT value of 9 seem to be better.
Can anyone explain why the L/48 as an AT value of 11?

quote:

7.5 cm KwK

Here, a comrpehensive list of the different ammo types calibres, etc.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ammotables.htm

Also consider the not only the calibre, the shells, but the better 'design' as well. hence the L48 mounted on a PzKw IV H gets a better value...

Btw, did you get my last msg?

Klink, Oberst

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RE: The 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 & L/48 in TOAW - 10/8/2011 4:23:59 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		Well if the "design" features have an impact on one of the values used in TOAW be it directly or indrectly it surely should flow into that value.
In this case:

Description of the 7.5cm Sturmkanone 40
The following data compare the 7.5cm Sturmkanone 40 L/48(in use beginning June 1942) with its predecessor the 7.5cm Sturmkanone 40 L/43 (of which 120 were produced).
The differences between the two weapons:

7.5cm StuK 40 L/43:
1. Several do not have the hydraulic safety switch.
2. On the upper gun carriage: roller support with roller bearings without a track ring.
3. Gunner's seat is not adjustable and has a fixed back support.
4. Electric firing circuit.
5. Rifling increases from 6 to 9 degrees.
6. No gun carriage lock on the roller grip.
7. All have a traverse lock on the traverse gear.
8. The gun sight is mounted lower to the left on all 120 examples.

7.5cm StuK 40 L/48:
1. All examples have hydraulic safety switches.
2. Partial roller support with roller bearings and track ring bearing; newer examples have track grips.
3. Gunner's seat is adjustable with a folding back support.
4. Electronic firing circuit.
5. After the 400th gun, constant rifling of 7 degrees; up to then the same as the L/43.
6. Some have no travel lock on the support; on the newer guns there are travel locks on both sides.
7. Some of the guns have a traverse lock on the traverse gear. Newer guns have a travel lock with bayonet lock.8. Beginning with the first L/ 48 gun, the sight is located higher and further to the right.

OK it's the version for the StuGs but I doubt the KwK version is much different.
I don't see what justifies a raise from 8 to 11.

Using the same ammunition we get this:
7.5cm StuK 40 L43 with Pzgr.Ptr.39
Muzzle velocity=740m/s
Penetration on 100m=98mm / 500m=90mm / 1000m=82mm / 1500m=72mm / 2000m=63mm

7.5cm StuK 40 L48 Pzgr.Ptr.39
Muzzle velocity=790m/s
Penetration on 100m=106mm / 500m=96mm / 1000m=85mm / 1500m=74mm / 2000m=64mm

We get better values of the Pzgr. 40 but even then the best difference is around 13,5% more penetration, and the Pzgr. 40 get be more or less ignored as it used Tungsten carbide that was simply too rare.


And yes I got your message, I'm working already with the xml file although at the moment the XMLPad seems to be a bit more structured, Notepad++ shows it simply as long text file.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 10/8/2011 4:24:42 PM >

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RE: The 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 & L/48 in TOAW - 10/9/2011 9:00:43 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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Status: offline 		Grosser Herzog,

The reason it showed the file as whole text was... it was the .oob, not the .xml. You can also fold/unfold the different <...> fields ;)

Regarding the different values of the guns, etc. Check the WW2 .eqp. They might have 'adjusted' it. But then... it depends on the design philosophy or the scenario and the desired effects.

Klink, Oberst







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RE: The 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 & L/48 in TOAW - 10/9/2011 7:04:32 PM   
ogar

 

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Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline 		BigDuke,

It looks to me like you and Klink went off into details on the main cannon of the vehicle -- which is a bif piece of the AT value, but it's not the vehicle itself. I'm not a tanker, but is there anything else on the PzIVH vs the PzIVF2, that might add to the increased AT value ? (faster turret, better sights, vehicle speed ???)
Other than that, my uninformed look at your data leads me to support your 9 vs 11 value (about a 10% increase in cannon's armor penetration at 500m).

Thanks for digging into this. Good luck.

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RE: The 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 & L/48 in TOAW - 10/10/2011 1:19:27 AM   
tigersqn


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Joined: 12/21/2009
Status: offline 		I remember reading somewhere that rate of fire of the unit had a large effect on the AT value

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RE: The 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 & L/48 in TOAW - 10/10/2011 8:39:45 AM   
samba_liten


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Currently in Kiev
Status: offline 		I'm sure you have seen this before, but here it is anyway, as it may be of use to someone; from Jentz.






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RE: The 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 & L/48 in TOAW - 10/10/2011 6:30:35 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		Ammunition could be a point.

Comparing the 7,5-cm-KwK 40 L/43 with the 39 Ammo and the results of the Panther gun(7,5-cm-KwK 42 L/70) with the 39 & 40 Ammo and taking 8 as base AT value you can see that the results show either around 11 or 15 but in TOAW it gets 13, so maybe the 11 for the L/48 is also some kind of average AT value using these two ammo types.

But ogar made a good point, maybe firing speed, gun sights, etc. also improved the overall AT value, I haven't checked that yet.

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RE: The 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 & L/48 in TOAW - 10/22/2011 1:12:15 AM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		Maybe the armor of the enemy tanks should also be considered.
The best armor a Russian KV has is 10 so with 11 its no problem for the Pz IVH to penetrate it, for the Panzer IVF2 with 8 it is.
Has anyone info about how good the Pz IVH & F2 were against the KV-1(late)?

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