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changing night groups to day - 6/21/2010 1:51:21 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		I have read a few referances that in BTR german single engine night groups can be changed to day fighters. is this true ? and when is it allowed if it is ?

Games upto early feb 44 (43 campaign) and i'm desperately short of day fighters to try and counter the growing p51 menace. Still slaughter the odd 4E heavy raid but i suspect that wont happen for much longer. Love the AI at times , it had a habit of totally confusing me of where the raids are really going. Some really really deep day raids on occasion, but not so often its worth as germany to place fighters all over the east airspace (yet).

Loving it really.

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RE: changing night groups to day - 6/21/2010 2:45:46 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		the 300's will change over to day fighters if you leave them alone

the 190s, should upgrade to the 190A8/R8 (so  make sure you build some of the A8R7's)

the 109s will upgrade to the 109G14/R6

(so, Jan 44 for the A8, and July 44 for the G14)

most people we upset with the 109s upgrading too fast, so was moved back to the G-14


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RE: changing night groups to day - 6/29/2010 6:13:33 AM   
ReDDoN45

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 2/25/2002
Status: offline 		Wondering how to get A8/R8s in the pool? I now have about 300 A8R7 in the pool but no upgrade is happening for the JG 302 guys. I tried with the setup of the 44 campaign for a short test of this upgrade. As campaign setup the german player has 50 A8R8 in the pool and within two turn the upgrading starts directly using some of the 50 A8R8s in the pool. With the A8R7 so far not. Am I doing something wrong?

My question is now, how to get the nescessairy A8R8s into the pool system? When upgrading a group to the A8R7, letting it outfit for a turn, adding the guns to the unit changing it to some other plane doesn´t work, as the planes reappear in the pool as A8R7s (like all other gun pod modified plane variants reappear as their basic variants in the pool)

Moreover I noticed that after succesfully researching certain types of aircraft which have the gun pod attachment ability (109GX/R6 variants or the 109K4/K6), you can´t attach the gun pods until the date the aircraft originally becomes available. So when you research the G14 to become available in, say April, the gun pod attachment is only possibly starting with the original availabiliy date, i.e. July 44 for the G-14/R-6 or Sep 44 for the K6. This is really a nuisance. How about changing the availability dates of all the gun-pod mod planes to Sep 43, as they can´t be build directly either way.

< Message edited by Reddon45 -- 6/29/2010 6:14:50 AM >

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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/1/2010 5:59:23 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		Thanks for the reply HS. So could i for example swop a Ju88 unit to 109's and then change them to day fighters ? or only the original units that had the 109's ?

I'm assuming the 1st and ill go check my game for 190's as i have a ton of A7's in the pools (even researched them early) and tbh they arent as good as i hoped. I find the vanilla A8's better than the A8/R7's due to the huge drop in manouver although the durability helps vs bombers agains fighter escorts the A7's get clobbered sadly.

Off to try it out now .. thanks

Edit
quote:


Moreover I noticed that after succesfully researching certain types of aircraft which have the gun pod attachment ability (109GX/R6 variants or the 109K4/K6), you can´t attach the gun pods until the date the aircraft originally becomes available. So when you research the G14 to become available in, say April, the gun pod attachment is only possibly starting with the original availabiliy date, i.e. July 44 for the G-14/R-6 or Sep 44 for the K6. This is really a nuisance. How about changing the availability dates of all the gun-pod mod planes to Sep 43, as they can´t be build directly either way.


Seconded.

how are you getting on with later 109 models ? i've gone down the 190 route and basically the 109 (bar the H which ill try out in small numbers ) is obsolete in my game.

< Message edited by Rob Brennan UK -- 7/1/2010 6:00:46 PM >

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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/1/2010 7:09:55 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		Just tried it in Feb 44 with the 190 units. No luck as no A8's in the pools.

As Reddon started earlier.

Swopped a unit using A8/R8's back to A6's and the planes returned to the A8/R7 pool.You cant actually make the R8 (tried it) as only the R7 is on the production lists.

Any help ?

I'll be happy to post screen shots if it helps or PM you a saved game.

Thanks

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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/5/2010 6:49:29 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		Sahmeless self bump ..

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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/5/2010 7:39:49 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		The Wilde Sau units do "auto-upgrade" only!
If you have changed their A/C once, the unit wont change to daylight fighters at all!

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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/6/2010 11:09:02 AM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		Rob,

Just to add I have the same problem in my PBEM with Swift in February 1944 - A8/R7's building up in the pool but so sign of the A5/U2 Wilde Sau units upgrading yet. No G-14's in production yet, so I can't confirm that so far.

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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/6/2010 3:08:27 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


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From: London UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: swift

The Wilde Sau units do "auto-upgrade" only!
If you have changed their A/C once, the unit wont change to daylight fighters at all!


Ok thats not good as i chopped and changed my units earlier based on experience.. funnily enough i had a feeling just after swopping them that it was a BAD idea .. whoops. Looks like I'll be having a lot more NF's then. Should make the days more interesting

quote:


Rob,

Just to add I have the same problem in my PBEM with Swift in February 1944 - A8/R7's building up in the pool but so sign of the A5/U2 Wilde Sau units upgrading yet. No G-14's in production yet, so I can't confirm that so far.


I wish you both the best of luck in your game and really appreciate that you both replied with a lot of help.

Thank you.



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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/6/2010 4:06:10 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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quote:

Looks like I'll be having a lot more NF's then. Should make the days more interesting


Since you're stuck with NF's, I highly recommend switching them to JU-88s or He-219s. As such they have far outperformed the "regular" NJG units similarly equipped. I changed the Wilde Sau units in the fall of 1943 out of frustration for their utter uselessness (ie more crashes than kills).

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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/6/2010 10:45:45 PM   
retired08

 

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I did the same, changed the WS units in early 44 for some Ju-88 then onto He-219. The WS units performed a lot better once re-equipped.

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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/7/2010 12:01:55 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I can change the 190's to upgrade to the R7 (they suppost to change to the modded one, but don't sound like they are)

(so would say the 109's would also need to change to the G-14)

interesting on the reseached planes, Harley will have to look and see what is going on


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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/7/2010 12:31:04 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		okay that worked, the night 190's upgrade to the R7 (the player can decide if they want to go the R8 route or not)

(I also want to rework the these R's, they are sitting ducks if they run into Allied fighters, which is as it should be, but if they reach the bombers, they should be much more dangerous then they are)

I also gave the 44 campaign, 50 R7's in stock, that will let one Gruppen make the change a couple of days after it starts, and give a few left over for combat replacements, while Production ramps up, if the player wants them to make the change, he is going to have to start building more of the R7s

(that change should also help the AI decide to start building some also)


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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/7/2010 1:12:34 PM   
harley


Posts: 1700
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline 		I've said in another thread I can fix this to use the /Paks... I just haven't got there yet.

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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/7/2010 3:02:59 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		no hassle mate, after all of my crashes and reinstalling and reinstalling, I am weeks/months behind the loop

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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/7/2010 4:07:22 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		so far, I am liking the changes to the R8, if it reaches the target, it kicks (the HARD part is getting them to the bombers !)




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RE: changing night groups to day - 7/7/2010 6:36:36 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		Nice one chaps , looks like its being sorted out.


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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/3/2011 1:30:21 PM   
ian66

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 10/3/2011
Status: offline 		can you please explain this to me again, i'm in feb 44, full 1943 campaign, version 1.02, over 500 A8/R7's in the pool but no upgrades, i've never manually upgraded the 300 series JG's, no way of getting R8's into the pool, how do you mean the 190's upgrade to the R7? love the game, can't leave it alone, would love to be able to use the 300's though.

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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/4/2011 8:12:51 PM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		ian66 <S>

To enable youself to modify the AC you can operate you have to work heavily with Production settings. That is not my Forte' so I wont mislead you on how to do so by attempting to answer your question. You should talk to guys like Derfel, Swift, Nicholas Bell and some of the others that are extremely experienced with operating the Axis in this game. IMHO Nick Bell has done the most serious investigative research and studies into operating the Luftwaffe in this game. Not to belittle anybody else, I have just discussed things more with him than anybody else here. So I am more familliar with his level of understanding of this game from the Axis perspective than I am with others.

I would recommend you send some PM's to some of them as I know they will gladly help you with operating the Axis. You might also post some direct questions on dealing with the Production model to effect access to the various models you seek.

Wish I could help you more.

Later,
KayBay

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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/5/2011 4:48:25 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		can you please explain this to me again, i'm in feb 44, full 1943 campaign, version 1.02, over 500 A8/R7's in the pool but no upgrades, i've never manually upgraded the 300 series JG's, no way of getting R8's into the pool, how do you mean the 190's upgrade to the R7? love the game, can't leave it alone, would love to be able to use the 300's though.

it is suppose to be able to upgrade to a PAK plane type, but looking into that, for now, try to upgrade another unit to the R7, then change the PAK to a R8, then change that unit back to a plane type you want, that should put some R8's into the pool

we had trouble before with the 300's upgradeing too fast, so went to the R8 to slow them down (besides the fact that some of the 300's went to it also)


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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/6/2011 2:13:16 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I am out of town and on my laptop, and the editor does not work with my laptop, so can't get inside of the game, one thing I see, is you need the A8/R7, the 50 I put into stock to help out in the 44 Campaign, do not help (will change them to R7's in the pool when I get home)

the little I was able to follow last night, Stab/300 made the change, didn't see any of the others but was only a couple day run, so stilling to see what is what


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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/9/2011 7:38:51 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		total pain, took two days to get my stuff onto my main computer and getting it to work (odd, can't use the editor on Win 7, it works, but does not save the files ????) also can't copy and paste, but can click and drag ?

for the OOB, changed the 50 A8/R8s in the pool to A8/R7 and that seems to work better (you can't make the R8 other then with the Pak, and the game uses the R7 instead of the R8) for my tests after making the change, I was getting the 300's to upgrade

(kind of cheated, changed over the IV.JG3 to A8's so more were in the pool, but it worked for the test) the HARD part is checking the 109s Gruppen, but can cheat there too)




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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/9/2011 9:09:36 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Moreover I noticed that after succesfully researching certain types of aircraft which have the gun pod attachment ability (109GX/R6 variants or the 109K4/K6), you can´t attach the gun pods until the date the aircraft originally becomes available. So when you research the G14 to become available in, say April, the gun pod attachment is only possibly starting with the original availabiliy date, i.e. July 44 for the G-14/R-6 or Sep 44 for the K6. This is really a nuisance. How about changing the availability dates of all the gun-pod mod planes to Sep 43, as they can´t be build directly either way.

that should be doable, will look at it

tests for the G-14 worked, at least with a 44 game as the starting point

hassle is, I am not sure if it is my test verison or or the game over all (my version was past what was released as a patch way before the patch was released last)

hassle with the G-14 upgrade path, is a lot of other units are going to want that plane, which if the player/AI does a massive production line change over, no hassle, but when you only have a few, they going to be going to other units before they go to the 300s

another hassle is, the units will upgrade to the base model, the player will have to change over to the Pak verison to get, the AI is not going to do this (and with my touch ups for the R8, you really are going to want to be using the R8 over the R7, it is still a pig and a dog, but up close, it is going to clobber bombers with that short range 30mm)

really wish I could force units to use the rocket, if I give a unit rockets, then the plane has rockets and can use the button to carry more rockets (duhh) but I think the AI would be much better if it would use them




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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/9/2011 10:00:16 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		just a test of the A8/R8, sort of a set up, but (and I missed the snap of the good attack)

two Gruppen of 190's with a Stab and a Staffen



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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/9/2011 10:01:39 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		the pilots after the raid




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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/9/2011 10:03:24 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		so 17 kills, for one lost 190, with a number of them damaged, one crashed on landing, pilot wounded for 17 days, end of day was 20 to 1, of course not Allied fighters were around

but did have a 5 damage/6 kill bounce

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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/9/2011 10:04:27 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		2nd test was the same target, same Allied Groups, but 2 Gruppen of 190A6's and a Stab

the bounce by a Gruppen of A6's




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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/9/2011 10:05:29 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		the pilots afterward

and to be honest, the Stab got into the straggers




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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/9/2011 10:09:13 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		end of the day results was 7 Allied for 5 A6s lost

now, will agree, not the best of tests, but it does show what the R8 can do, if it gets to the bombers (hint, Heavy fighters got to be away from the coast)

over all, the A6's did get damaged planes on there bounces, and got damaged bad in return, the A8/R8 got kills, and damaged, and got hurt in return, but, most made it back to base (if fighters were around, dont think that would of happened as well)




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RE: changing night groups to day - 10/12/2011 11:35:25 AM   
ian66

 

Posts: 11
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Status: offline 		Thanks for trying to help but I'm sorry I'm still totally lost, I did try 44 campaign amd I did get 50 R8's in pool which upgraded stab 300 but no others. In 43 campaign if I change others, say IV/JG3 to A8/R8 then change back they go back into pool as R7 so as I say no way of getting R8's into pool and no way of auto upgrade. I see that 109-Ga6 etc will manually upgrade to 190A8/R7 with over 500 in pool.

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