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Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/13/2011 12:22:04 AM   
elcid

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Lakewood Washington
Status: offline 		Stock lcu 4617 correctly is the CD unit of Saipan.

It is even correct that Saipan had an unusual 8 inch CD battery.

But the device is incorrect - listing the 8 inch short gun vice the 8 inch CD mounting of the naval gun.

This is in most accounts of Japanese CD - including the listing for naval guns of 8 inch caliber in
Naval Weapons of World War II - that lists the few CD batteries using the naval gun
Post #: 1
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/13/2011 3:43:08 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elcid

Stock lcu 4617 correctly is the CD unit of Saipan.

It is even correct that Saipan had an unusual 8 inch CD battery.

But the device is incorrect - listing the 8 inch short gun vice the 8 inch CD mounting of the naval gun.

This is in most accounts of Japanese CD - including the listing for naval guns of 8 inch caliber in
Naval Weapons of World War II - that lists the few CD batteries using the naval gun


Please specify 'most accounts of Japanese CD'. As far as I can tell, all accounts agree that 20cm Type 3 (1943) Short Guns were the only Japanese 8 inch guns present on Saipan.

Incorrect is the presence of the Saipan CD unit (4617) in 1941, of course. The coastal defense installations were not even fully operational/emplaced when the US invaded Saipan. Ostensibly my fault, but I lacked the time to do Japanese coastal defense installations on a month-by-month basis (this would have resulted in an interesting amount of TOE upgrades, btw.) and thus gave all of them the equipment they had when the US invaded or what was present when the war ended.

(in reply to elcid)
Post #: 2
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/13/2011 3:52:20 PM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		You're expecting him to actually cite sources??? BAHAHAHAHA!!! The short guns are correct for the Marianas.

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RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/14/2011 10:11:33 AM   
Roko

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 4/4/2008
Status: offline 		It seems that both 8inch types  ("long" and "short") are present at Saipan in June 1944.

"The Japanese were not deeply concerned with Saipan's defenses. Big 8-inch guns were on box cars awaiting emplacement and many trench works, lacked concrete covers. "
http://www.battleofsaipan.com/seabee.htm

[image]

< Message edited by Roko -- 10/14/2011 10:20:29 AM >

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Post #: 4
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/14/2011 11:17:39 AM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roko

It seems that both 8inch types  ("long" and "short") are present at Saipan in June 1944.

"The Japanese were not deeply concerned with Saipan's defenses. Big 8-inch guns were on box cars awaiting emplacement and many trench works, lacked concrete covers. "
http://www.battleofsaipan.com/seabee.htm



The gun shown on the picture is a 6-inch gun.

(in reply to Roko)
Post #: 5
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/14/2011 2:01:23 PM   
Roko

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 4/4/2008
Status: offline 		From http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/USMC-M-Saipan/USMC-M-Saipan-1.html

The same guns, different angle - caption : "These Japanese 8-inch guns still loaded on flatcars, are but three of the scores of weapons unemplaced at the time of United States landings."



However I must admit they are not 8-inch guns.
After closer look at gun cradle, IMO its 5.5-inch ( 140mm ) 3rd Year Type.

Few nice pictures :
http://www.allworldwars.com/Photo-Interpreters-Guide-to-Japanese-Military-Installations-Part-III.html#XIII


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Post #: 6
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/25/2011 1:13:48 PM   
elcid

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Lakewood Washington
Status: offline 		My preferred reference is Naval Weapons of WWII - since it is comprehensive and lists all Navies
In that case - the naval cruiser guns article comes with a list of shore bases mounting the naval rifle
- making it pretty clear the weapon intended is not the short gun.

However, the information is found in other places as well. I collect magazine articles and
papers on these matters - of variing quality. Indeed - I am not famililar with a listing for short
guns - which were nominally also ship weapons - and speculate perhaps both weapons might have been present.
What is any source listing the short guns at Saipan?

If you want difinitive review of the matter, make a request in English at the National Diet Library -
and it probably will come back with all known sources listing whatever they list. If you make a series of
requests over time, normally they will all be answered by the same staff person - and normally that will be
a retired JNSDF member familiar with both language and naval history.

If you can read Japanese - the massive official encyclopedia of the Greater Pacific War - which is boring beyond
tears - very likey has the data - but it has never been translated - but it isn't exactly user friendly.

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 7
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/25/2011 5:51:17 PM   
US87891

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 1/2/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: elcid
What is any source listing the short guns at Saipan?

Japanese CD emplacements were far from complete on Saipan, but none of the CD guns, either contemplated or captured, included a 20 cm Naval rifle of any mark or type. The Navy plan included 12, 14 and 15cm guns, in 12 batteries; seven along the west coast from Agingan Point to Tanapag; five on the east coast on Nafutan Point and along Magicienne Bay. A 12cm battery was to be located at Marfi Point.

Some of the 12cm batteries were, in fact, DP batteries, but had only HE/AA ammunition assigned, and would have been useless as anti-ship guns. None of the planned deployments were made, however, so capability becomes moot.

Japanese Army artillery positions were located to either side of Mt Fina Susu to fire missions on east and west coasts except for two sections of 20cm Naval “mortars” positioned as anti-boat elements. One section was positioned behind Garapan, in the Naval Sector ,covering Tanapag from Garapan to Flores Point. The other section was located in advance of Tsutsuran to cover Magicienne Bay.

The 20cm Naval “mortars” at Garapan were Naval “guns” emplaced in pits on spider mounts for high angle fire on beach in the Navy Sector, according to the official records of the IJA unit that serviced them. Presumably, the 20cm Naval “mortars” at Tsutsuran were the same.

The identical terminology and emplacement technique were used for several 20cm Naval “mortars” on Guam. Photographs clearly show the identified batteries as comprising 20cm Type 3, “short” Naval guns.

CINCPAC-CINCPOA, “Disposition of Navy Dual-Purpose and Coastal Defense Batteries on Saipan and Tinian”, (T 12252, Vol. 8)

CINCPAC-CINCPOA, “Battle Plan of Artillery Unit of 1st Expeditionary Unit”, (T 9604, Vol. 6)

CINCPAC-CINCPOA, “Ammunition Supply Necessary for Coast and Aircraft Defense Units; 31st Army”, (T 9698, Vol. 7)

“Japanese Northern Marianas Group Operations Order A-4, and Map Overlays”; NTLF Report, Marianas, Phase I, G-2 Rpt (NA 21959).

“136th Infantry Regiment Operation Order 7”, and “136th Infantry Regiment Operation Order 12”, 25 May; and “Field Diary 2d Artillery Battery, 136th Infantry Regiment”, 1-31 May 1944 (NA 21961 and NA 22286).

quote:

If you can read Japanese - the massive official encyclopedia of the Greater Pacific War - which is boring beyond
tears - very likey has the data - but it has never been translated - but it isn't exactly user friendly.

Yes, I can read and speak Japanese. Sosho has been over 70% translated for the past two decades, much of it in the Coox collection, and more is being done currently. All of it, including the translations, are avaible through scores of academic and military historical libraries. It is available to anybody. It is available as an academic text on microfiche and is updated quarterly by the Library of Congress and the National Archives. Since you seem to be a mere internet source of person, it's no surprise you know nothing about the scope of true academic sources.

(in reply to elcid)
Post #: 8
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/25/2011 7:01:15 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Woof !! Yes, I have been using the translations of Senshi Shosho for ages. I have told this, in exactly the same form, to the Sidney person, both publicly and privately, and have given him the wherewithall to get the fundamental info. That was back in the WiTP days ([ed] maybe 4 years ago), so maybe he hopes you all won't remember. But he's known it for years. He has done nothing, and still whines his little useless internet doo doo, as though it were in any way informative.
Sad, sad, sad.

< Message edited by JWE -- 10/25/2011 7:02:39 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/25/2011 8:34:21 PM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		I recall the debate John in the WITP forum when Cid was quoting Shosho as a source in Japanese and that you had to hire translators to get the original data and he even gave you the price of Japanese translator services. LOL In those days I used to believe what he said that was before i started researching the war in the pacific.You know i will try to find the thread and post it here.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 10
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/26/2011 6:09:55 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Honestly, Che200, think it would be good to just let this go. I was fired up by Mat's post, but there is no need to heap indignity upon inconsequence.
If I could prevail upon you, would you consider just shining this off? If so, thanks pal.

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Post #: 11
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/26/2011 6:27:06 PM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		NP John

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 12
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/26/2011 7:03:28 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Jeez Louize, Mom was watching an old Bonanza show where Leong T'ing was the protagonist. Gosh, that was like 20 years ago. Maybe the Euro Nazis should read some books, or even watch some television; I know they aren't too bright, but even a dog can be be trained with repetition.

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Post #: 13
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/26/2011 9:11:17 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
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From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		??

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 14
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/26/2011 9:19:18 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

??



Second that. What was that about John??

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Post #: 15
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/26/2011 9:20:14 PM   
Schanilec

 

Posts: 4040
Joined: 6/12/2010
From: Grand Forks, ND
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Jeez Louize, Mom was watching an old Bonanza show where Leong T'ing was the protagonist. Gosh, that was like 20 years ago. Maybe the Euro Nazis should read some books, or even watch some television; I know they aren't too bright, but even a dog can be be trained with repetition.


20 years ago? I'd try like almost 40 years ago. I wish it was 20.

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Post #: 16
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/26/2011 10:24:25 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
Second that. What was that about John??

Not much. Just have an issue with certain stuff. No worries.

[ed] was responding to a pm, but it ended up here. Darn screens all look the same. Should make them more Senior friendly

< Message edited by JWE -- 10/27/2011 1:44:26 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/26/2011 10:40:56 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		its very technical.



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Post #: 18
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/27/2011 2:58:25 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		And thus unnecessary to quote sources...

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Post #: 19
RE: Saipan 8 inch gun error - 10/27/2011 4:06:17 PM   
Schanilec

 

Posts: 4040
Joined: 6/12/2010
From: Grand Forks, ND
Status: offline 		I was going to respond. But I changed my mind. Now I have get all this whiteout off my screen.

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Post #: 20
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