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RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 12:29:52 AM

Stoat

Posts: 37
Joined: 9/20/2011
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Pelton does know that Germany lost the war, doesn't he?

Hell, if you are going to play an Eastern Front game, you do tend to have at least read some info on it, and even the really basic stuff mentions the Soviet success at industrial evacuation.

I know I take the p**s out of a lot of your posts, but any good points you make (and you do) are buried in a mass of irrelevent or inaccurate information, which kind of destroys your point.

Whatever anyone argues about this game, the big problem is that you are not going to get any Soviet player to make Stalinist mistakes, or a German to make Hitlerist mistakes, so you have to make do with what you have got.

German players will have to get used to playing a fighting retreat from about mid to late '43 onwards (judging by the AAR's we are seeing now). I'm not as learned as some on here, but that seems pretty realistic to me.

Enjoy the game for a while, play it to the end, and then we can see what needs tweaking

If I can try to answer your general point using the terms I described yesterday, I do not believe Pelton & FlaviusX actually have very different views on what the "mean outcome" of the game should be. If we could observe a sufficient sample of games where the mean result was German surrender around May-45, I think think they would both be happy with that and we all should be.

I name Pelton & FlaviusX, not to call them out or subject them to any particular deep personal scrutiny, but because I view them as the leading proponents of the Axis & Soviet "sides". Pelton (always?) plays Axis and consistently advocates for changes which would, on balance, benefit the Axis player. FlaviusX (always?) plays Soviet & consistently advocates for changes which would, on balance, benefit the Soviet player. Both seem to me to be capable & active competitive players.

Naturally (or un-naturally), I think about things in my own terms, so when I consider the changes that each proposes, I think that generally, Pelton's changes would increase the dispersion of results whereas FlaviusX's changes would decrease the dispersion of results. While any particular point or feature can be debated on its history, any particular algorithm or dynamic can be altered to broaden or narrow the distribution of likely outcomes. The decision to do the latter is NOT one grounded in history, but rather a game design decision as to what range & likely frequency of results should be possible to make the game pleasing for users.

When I look at AAR's & so many players describing frustrations & failures to finish, sure, from the perspective of an individual game, it's easy to start & finish your analysis with, "well, that guy's a bad fellow because he quit the game", or whatever (I am not btw speaking in favour of quitting here). But with hundreds of thousands or millions of man-hours in development and now, almost a year after release, I don't doubt millions of hours of gameplay, on this board we can observe exactly

ZERO

games played through to the final turn. This is absolutely shocking to me. Absolutely shocking. And very distressing. After all, this is not some piece of crap we're talking about. This is the Best Wargame in the History of Mankind. I truly believe this. But it's not working for the user base. You can blame any single guy for his shortcomings and may be correct on an individual level, but if that is where you stop, I think that's not good enough. You (not you personally Encircled, just "you" instead of "one") have got to get some perspective. I think the Silent Majority of the user base is speaking loud & clear, and the silence is deafening, even though the messaging of the dominant force on these boards is entirely otherwise. This colossus is FlaviusX and his many supporters, together to whom yesterday I referred as the "Thick Brown Line" and to whom I'll so refer to today, 'cos I think it's nicer than "Soviet fanboys" and is hellafunny.

The Thick Brown Line (TBL to its friends) is the dominant force due to the energy & zeal with which they congratulate each other on the uniformity of their views and the energy & zeal with which they chasten those who dissent, They dominate through the strength of their numbers, not the strength of their ideas. It's not hard to see who they are: all's ya have to do is check Pelton's head, neck & body for boot prints (& he has fresh ones every day, God love him), & match those to the various guys in this here mess of ours.

Now I think a lot of these guys are pretty smart, and bet they're all actually pretty good fellows, more or less, so I don't really mean to accuse them of heinous crimes or anything really nefarious. But I do not like what they are doing, because I do not think what they are doing is good for the game.

My core belief about the state of this game is that it is frustrating its user base, because it must always turn out the same. Not because it it too complicated, but because it is no fun in the late game (say 1943-1945). I say this admittedly never having seen 1943 myself, never having seen a Panther tank, never having seen an Me 262, never having felt the loving caress of a PanzerGrenadier Division. My 3 CG's vs. normal Sov AI are (or will be) all over in '42. The TBL will respond, "well, this is pretty much the story of the late war, so this is the way it should be".

I say that is not good enough. The game has wonderful, beautiful rhythms in the first couple years, woven together with threads of supply, weather, reinforcements, morale & other dynamics. I sense, without knowing, that these rhythms kind of turn to suck thereafter. I wonder if a lot of players don't feel, "Hey, this is has turned from awesome into suck. Why spend a few hundred hours of my life doing something unpleasant?" I say this not to excuse poor sportsmanship or quitting but because I think there is some truth to it, and as a creator, I don't think your design goal is to inflict a few hundred hours of suck on your users. Maybe this is not the case. But zero, in its own way, is a very big number.

The Thick Brown Line, many of whom play largely of exclusively Soviet, have the natural institutional inclination to defend the interests of their side. Pelton & I, as Axis players have the opposite tendency. Of course, as a single player noob, I play Axis since playing 1P Sov is no challenge at all. Although on top of that, given the current game balance, I do feel it is a character flaw for anyone to play Soviet against an opponent he considers anywhere near his equal.

Pelton's proposals in general, I feel, will broaden the range of possibilities and make the game more interesting. FlaviusX's proposals, in general, I feel, will narrow the range of possibilities, and make the game dismal. Maybe dismal is actually �sthetically pleasing from the Soviet perspective; I wouldn't know.

So the way I see it, reduced down to the crux of it, Pelton is the greatest champion of making the game better, and FlaviusX is the greatest proponent of destroying the game. I think they're both smart and I like them both. But this is why I stand with Pelton & why I stand against FlaviusX.

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(in reply to Encircled)

Post #: 91

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 12:38:52 AM

Flaviusx

Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
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You're calling me out, man.

In response: sod off.

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Post #: 92

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 12:41:55 AM

Panzeh

Posts: 155
Joined: 4/4/2005
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I think this game shares many problems with a whole lot of other East Front strategic games that won't be solved just by messing around with factory evacuation. Fundamentally, the problem with most east front games is that the game is decided well before the rules say it's decided, thusly it ends up being a slog where both sides go through the motions. This one is no different. In an attempt to make the victory conditions completely 'satisfying', instead the game is made cumbersome and ponderous.

Also, I think 1941 is really un-fun in this game for the Soviets as it is essentially scripted for him, even if it's effective. The game's swings are really obvious and gamey, there's just not much give and take. Even when it's time for the Red Army to kick ass the best strategy is really boring and there's rarely much of a choice. I also think the Germans only really have many options in 1941, afterward they, too, get boring.

And half the reason this game never gets completed is because it's too long for its own good. Maybe i'm just spoiled by the more interesting game-wise No Retreat! http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/68264/no-retreat-the-russian-front

(in reply to Stoat)

Post #: 93

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 12:48:26 AM

Stoat

Posts: 37
Joined: 9/20/2011
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

You're calling me out, man.

In response: sod off.

Alright, alright, don't get all bent out of shape over it. I just hope you'll consider the broader impact of your efforts. Even if you win all your fights to protect the interests of the Soviet player, and you may very well do so, what really are the victories worth if the game is no fun for the Axis player? That's all.

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Post #: 94

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 12:49:07 AM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
You're underestimating the importance of manpower here. The new multiplier in 1942 works out to something like a 10% reduction in replacements. Doesn't sound like much, but this works out to a good half million men over the course of the year, give or take, depending on how much manpower you are holding on to.

I would never agree to your house rule regarding HI unless my German opponent agreed to forego the Lvov opening. Since each HI factory costs 10,000 rail cap to move, your two to one ratio will result in roughly 45% rail being wasted on HI. That is to say, we can expect armament factory losses from overrun to roughly double under such a penalty given the kind of advances being made with the standard openings. Right now, an optimum evac will keep armament losses down to the low 30s. A single mistake could make that go up considerably. With your ratio thrown in, we're looking at best case scenarios of 60ish armament factories lost, and possibly quite a bit more.

So, no thanks.

How about 5-to-1, since as you say HI does cost a lot more to move. Every 40K rail points, 25% go to HI (30K for 5x armaments, IIRC, +10K for 1x Heavy). Or asked another way: what constraint, if any, do you think should be imposed on Soviet players given the hindsight advantage they have in knowing they can abandon HI without repurcussion?

Germany is handcuffed several times for Eastern Front pockets that may never happen (Demyansk, and the withdrawls associated with such) and the inflexible timetable of the western allies. A little lost rail capacity, or required HI movement ratio is not too much to ask to represent the fact that the mathemeticians hadn't yet had 70 years to pour over production data to realize heavy industry isn't important to their survivability.

The Lvov pocket is a separate issue.
Raiding is a separate issue.
Or at least I feel they should be looked at as separate.

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(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 95

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 12:58:58 AM

Flaviusx

Posts: 7750
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From: Southern California
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Really, I'd much rather be given a positive reason to move HI. I don't feel particularly guilty for skipping on it, frankly, because right now that's the only way to prevent massive overruns of industry in the south given the Lvov opening.

I'll play with one hand tied behind my back if the other guys does: you skip the Lvov opening, and I'll move some HI in proportion to armaments.

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Post #: 96

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 1:59:49 AM

Klydon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

In fact, this issue does not have an easy fix I can think of at all. The rail cap could be ok as it is. The real issue is the Russians don't have to really move any industry other than armaments because of the way the game treats HI and the fact that armaments is the real bottleneck in determining the overall strength of the Russian army as the game goes along. It isn't manpower, tank production or anything else. It is armaments, period.

Now, like other aspects of this game that have had issues (air model for example), players have worked around them with agreements with each other until said issue was fixed. Some issues are still going (air model for an example again) while others have been fixed. I don't think this has to be any different for now and one suggestion by me is to put some ratio on moving industry to help this situation out for now. For instance, players could agree that for every 2 armaments points moved, 1 HI must be moved. If players don't like that ratio, the pick another or come up with something yourselves, but Russian players are kidding themselves if they don't think this is a big issue right now.

You're underestimating the importance of manpower here. The new multiplier in 1942 works out to something like a 10% reduction in replacements. Doesn't sound like much, but this works out to a good half million men over the course of the year, give or take, depending on how much manpower you are holding on to.

I would never agree to your house rule regarding HI unless my German opponent agreed to forego the Lvov opening. Since each HI factory costs 10,000 rail cap to move, your two to one ratio will result in roughly 45% rail being wasted on HI. That is to say, we can expect armament factory losses from overrun to roughly double under such a penalty given the kind of advances being made with the standard openings. Right now, an optimum evac will keep armament losses down to the low 30s. A single mistake could make that go up considerably. With your ratio thrown in, we're looking at best case scenarios of 60ish armament factories lost, and possibly quite a bit more.

So, no thanks.

Lvov opening and these issues are two totally different things. How would you judge if I did not do the Lwow opening? I leave you one hex open not on a rail line and then slam the door the next turn? Too hard to judge.

I was thinking about this and as compensation, I would expect a German to either forgo another issue that is likely to be fixed in the future and that is HQ build up) or to have it limited to a pre-determined amount of times (like 5 times, max 1 per PG and 1 per turn).

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 97

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 2:02:47 AM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Really, I'd much rather be given a positive reason to move HI. I don't feel particularly guilty for skipping on it, frankly, because right now that's the only way to prevent massive overruns of industry in the south given the Lvov opening.

I'll play with one hand tied behind my back if the other guys does: you skip the Lvov opening, and I'll move some HI in proportion to armaments.

I don't necessarily think the Lvov Pocket and HVY issues need to be conflated. Rather, I would think that if players had to think about evacuating HVY in the first place, and more Armaments were lost as a result, then we wouldn't have been left with a 130% multiplier on Armaments production, since the extra lost Armaments would have been the reduction we're seeing today.

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 98

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 2:09:05 AM

Flaviusx

Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
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For me, they are conflated. I designed my evacuation schedule with it in mind. I have a very good idea of how far and how fast the German can advance with it, and what needs to be abandoned and what needs to be saved. That's part of the reason I deliberately write off certain areas.

Given a slower advance, things would be different.

Part of the reason I'm so fanatical now about the armament factories is (unlike most people here) I know exactly how production plays out with the new multiplier. Even with an absolutely perfect evac -- no factories lost -- the Soviet is living hand to mouth for much of 1942. There's no slack at all. Once everything is repaired, you will barely met requirements, and have little or nothing to spare for building artillery SUs, for example. You basically have to forego these to have any chance to accumulate the necessary points for building artillery divisions at the end of 42. This is, I stress again, with a perfect evac. Building up a reserve of armament points is very very difficult now.

So anything lost will put the Soviet behind.

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Post #: 99

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 2:11:49 AM

JAMiAM

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stoat
So the way I see it, reduced down to the crux of it, Pelton is the greatest champion of making the game better, and FlaviusX is the greatest proponent of destroying the game. I think they're both smart and I like them both. But this is why I stand with Pelton & why I stand against FlaviusX.

Untrue and unfair.

Though it was pretty clear to me that it (along with much of your overly long and rambling post) was intended as a bit of humorous hyperbole, it makes it rather difficult to pay any credence to some of the more important issues that you do allude to in the rest of the post. Namely, what range of outcomes should we take to be reasonable, and historically plausible?

(in reply to Stoat)

Post #: 100

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 3:02:22 AM

Klydon

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I am not a fan boi for either side, but I will point out that although Flaviusx is one of the resident Russian experts, he is generally fair about things for both sides.

Flaviusx, I don't think there is likely any doubt that the armaments multiplier is going to get a tweak up soon to help. That is a fairly easy fix.

Lvov pocket is too hard of a judgement call to say "this was a Lvov pocket" or it wasn't. The other issue is it takes away the beauty of the game to a point; much like Russians don't have to stand and fight, the Germans should not be so constrained in how they use their forces in terms of what goes where. In hindsight, it absolutely appears more force in the south would have been beneficial.

This is different from a broken production mechanic that renders HI useless at the moment. My suggestion of a enforced ratio is to keep the rail cap in perspective with what the Russians can realistically expect after a fix comes out for the HI and it becomes important to move it again.

My suggestion about reducing/limiting the HQ buildup mechanic is also to help prepare the Germans for the day it likely won't be available or even more limited by changes to the game. Even if the Germans pull the Lvov manuver, the Russians have more security as far as panzers suddenly full of gas doing massive encirclements.

If you have a suggestion to make for those who would like to play a head to head game with the game in its current form, I am sure the community would be receptive (other than trying to say the Lvov opening should not be used).

(in reply to JAMiAM)

Post #: 101

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 3:07:57 AM

Wild

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Look i think everyone just wants to make this great game better. I think it's obvious and desirable that the production model make sense and stay as close to history as possible but also taking into account gameplay. Therefore Heavy industry must be fixed.

If the production is right then i think the rail will more or less take care of itself.

I see nothing wrong with the Lvov opening but i would give it up if that's what it takes to bribe the devs to fix production and make cities worth fighting for.

I also think Hq buildups have been abused and should be limited. I don't like the factory raiding but also think Soviets should be garrisoning their cities better.

I'm a German player but i don't want to skew the game so they can always win. I just want a fun game that is historical but has great playability and i think improving production and making cities more important thus giving more objectives will do that.

< Message edited by Wild -- 10/17/2011 3:10:34 AM >

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Post #: 102

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 3:52:35 AM

mmarquo

Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
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Stoat wrote:

quote:

So the way I see it, reduced down to the crux of it, Pelton is the greatest champion of making the game better, and FlaviusX is the greatest proponent of destroying the game. I think they're both smart and I like them both. But this is why I stand with Pelton & why I stand against FlaviusX.

What absolute drivel. You have have contributed anything absolutely nothing to the development of this game - you are a recruit with no stars by your name; OTOH Flaviusx 5 stars after his name. Your claim that he wants to destroy the game has destroyed your credibility.

Frankly the problem with Pelton's posts is that they are accusatory and filled with acerbic innuendo - this makes them very difficult to read; however I like to read them because he raises interesting points.

Now, why am reacting at all? Because I wasted my time reading your flaming post when I could have been reading something constructive.

Enjoy the game.

Marquo

< Message edited by Marquo -- 10/17/2011 3:56:52 AM >

(in reply to Stoat)

Post #: 103

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 4:04:00 AM

hugh04

Posts: 165
Joined: 9/14/2011
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I am a new player but an old gamer. So far 1 game vs a human as axis up through the blizzard and another vs a human soviet. One thing I find interesting is looking at the 1942 GC starting forces. German and Soviet forces are really beat up. The entire southern soviet front is a mass of 1 cv units. These 2 armies really fought each other.

I have seen the front line in 42 of some AAR's and it is scary how strong the Soviet are. Pelton vs Kamil has russian front line cv's made up of infantry corps with strengths in the 50+ range down the entire front.

I think 2 easy ideas to make the sides truly fight are realistic automatic victory conditions. Example 2 out of 3 Leningrad, Moscow and Kharkov/stalino taken by Axis so long as soviet player holds none of Pskov, smolensk, kiev and D or Z town. The test would be in March of 42. You might add automatic win if Axis holds Rostov, Leningrad and Moscow at the end of any 2 or 3 consecutive turns.

In March of 43 make holding Baku and Stalingrad or just Moscow an automatic win.

Lastly, make the industrial evacuation schedule automatic. Tactical soviet rail capacity would be less as the industrial evacuation would take a set amount each turn. Soviet could have a choice to delay 1/2 of any turns industry evac for a turn increase in rail cap.

Great game that could be even greater and less predictable if the 2 sides would really go all out against each other.

Vandev

p.s. in my play as a soviet I run backwards to river lines and try to avoid massive encirclements.

(in reply to Wild)

Post #: 104

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 4:06:05 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Read what I post...Go back and read the posts, thks.

You're on. I've posted the relevant parts of your post below, and then discuss. I welcome any counter-arguments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
2. It is a fact of history we know that 50% of all the industry in the areas the Germans over ran were destoryed or 64 armerment pts. With the current system it not historicaly possible to hit these numbers, because the rail system is broken.

Fact of history according to whom? And 50% of what? 50% of the factory sites (ie, 100% of 50% of the factory sites?)? Or 50% of 100% of the factory sites? Or it is simply that the Germans overran some factories with some remaining, perhaps non-essential, equipment in 50% of the factories? Your 50% figure is literally almost completely meaningless.

But assuming for a moment that the 50% figure is true, it is impossible to equate 50% of "all industry" with any percentage of armament points, for the simple reason that the Sovs probably evacced arm factories first. What they left behind was could have been making baby-carriages for all you know. Moreover, as I've also previously explained, there is no reason to think that the Sovs had to evac 100% of every factory, just the most critical equipment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
I clearly explained the % and then simply found a map on line of all the areas the Germans over ran...Totalled up the numbers ect ecte cet...I went with 50% to split the 40-66% of claims.

Gee this is a rigorous and obviously very weighty piece of analysis...

. I can see why the devs should rework the whole production and rail transport model based on this!

< Message edited by 76mm -- 10/17/2011 4:08:41 AM >

(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 105

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 4:10:12 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzeh
Also, I think 1941 is really un-fun in this game for the Soviets as it is essentially scripted for him, even if it's effective.� The game's swings are really obvious and gamey, there's just not much give and take.� Even when it's time for the Red Army to kick ass the best strategy is really boring and there's rarely much of a choice.� I also think the Germans only really have many options in 1941, afterward they, too, get boring.

I guess this post is kind of OT, but I have to agree.

(in reply to Panzeh)

Post #: 106

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 4:14:17 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vandev
I have seen the front line in 42 of some AAR's and it is scary how strong the Soviet are. Pelton vs Kamil has russian front line cv's made up of infantry corps with strengths in the 50+ range down the entire front.

You have not seen 1942 AARs with the 1.05 patch, it will make a huge difference.

(in reply to hugh04)

Post #: 107

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 4:17:01 AM

76mm

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Of course the Lvov Opening and panzer raiding are closely connected with factory evac/rail capacity--the effectiveness of factory evac depends on the speed of the German advance which depends on German tactics. Tactics such as the Lvov Opening and panzer raiding increase the speed of the German advance and thus make factory evacs more difficult. How can anyone say that the issues are separate? The most definitely are closely related.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 108

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 3:00:33 PM

ComradeP

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The game is quite different from before going from 1941 to 1942 now, as the Germans get Hiwi's, Soviet national morale is reduced and forts are less impressive, and it will be a while before the long term effects of recent changes are felt.

To say, like Pelton and now Stoat too, that the developers essentially only care about the Soviet side, is complete rubbish. To say that Pelton and Stoat represent most of the community is also false.

After the recent changes, there are more minor and major issues with the system than there are minor and major issues with a certain side, which was the case before, so in my opinion we're on the right track at least in that regard. Could that have been achieved earlier? Maybe, but we probably would've broken more things than were broken now with changes being applied more gradually.

Also, Stoat: We jump on Pelton because he rants and doesn't really provide evidence supporting his cause. What he says wouldn't be the problem if it would not be a rant (coming from a not so very articulated person) and if it would be based on the average situation and not what he views as a problem at the time. For obvious reasons, the game is more likely to be adjusted if something goes wrong on average than if something goes wrong in one single game, as long as it doesn't concern a bug, but an outcome.

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(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 109

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 3:50:32 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
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From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Also, Stoat: We jump on Pelton because he rants and doesn't really provide evidence supporting his cause. What he says wouldn't be the problem if it would not be a rant (coming from a not so very articulated person) and if it would be based on the average situation and not what he views as a problem at the time. For obvious reasons, the game is more likely to be adjusted if something goes wrong on average than if something goes wrong in one single game, as long as it doesn't concern a bug, but an outcome.

Let me break a lance for Pelton. He might not be as articulated as other forum regulars, and might be prone to cry wolf at the sight of the shadow of a goat, but still he's made quite a few fine points over the last months. Some of the points on the Soviet rail transportation system have an obvious "western" bias. Consider the apocryphal story about how much dollars NASA spent developing a pen for the astronauts that worked on Zero G without blotting the entire spaceship with ink, and how a Soviet astronaut, when told the story, started to laugh out loud and said "We just used pencils!".

They just got the job done. Consumer satisfaction and comfort, insurance policies ("signaling not up to western standards"

) and the like weren't a concern for the Soviet system economy.

However ComradeP makes here an excellent point by separating the notion of "on average" from "exceptional". The problem is that proving the former usually requires some dedication and care.

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Post #: 110

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 3:56:32 PM

ComradeP

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Certainly, Pelton has made a few points, but that's not an excuse for his usual style of delivering those points, valid or not.

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Post #: 111

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 6:31:46 PM

Encircled

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From: Northern England
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The Soviet evacuation of their industry is well documented

The "Pelton" (ie piling across Russia with no interest in logistics, or keeping crack German troops alive) has about as much basis in history as "Braveheart" does.

Thanks for the post, Stoat, it made an interesting read, though your conclusions are flawed

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Post #: 112

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 9:44:39 PM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
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From: Nashville TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

The Soviet evacuation of their industry is well documented

The "Pelton" (ie piling across Russia with no interest in logistics, or keeping crack German troops alive) has about as much basis in history as "Braveheart" does.

Yes, but given you're in Northern England, we can assume you support Longshanks, and therefore your opinion is hopelessly biased!

As far as THIS American is concerned, Braveheart is actual history!

Now where's the blue face paint!

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Post #: 113

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 9:47:57 PM

Encircled

Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
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Seventy miles from the Scottish border

Mel "I hate the English" Gibson is a legend up there!

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Post #: 114

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 9:55:23 PM

johnnyvagas

Posts: 50
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The whole concept of Kilts and going commando while wearing a dress seems overly drafty to me. I just don�t think Highland troops sporting kilts would perform particularly well with the current blizzard rules.

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Post #: 115

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/17/2011 10:08:22 PM

Aurelian

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Ehhh, a few gallons of scotch will fix that.

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Post #: 116

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/18/2011 12:16:55 AM

ComradeP

Posts: 7192
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Elements of 2nd Shock Army tried heavy drinking when trying to break out of its encirclement after the Lyuban offensive failed and the German operations had isolated the army from the rest of the Soviet forces in the area. Results were predictable.

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Post #: 117

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/18/2011 12:25:11 AM

Peltonx

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76mm hmmm, I am not going to lower myself to your level I just take the time and slowly explian things again.

50% of industry destoried is 50% of war industry not baby carriers, Good Sir.

We all 100% know and some are tring to address the exploit that Russian players are using.

So wasting poeples time tring to say its not an exploit or that 50% of war industry was not destoryed in the areas over run by the Germans is making you seem close minded and that you don't have the best interests of the game at heart.

1. Hvy means nothing.
2. 45% to 66% of all war industry was destoryed in the areas that the Germans over ran or in WiTe terms of industry that means something = 53 to 80 arm pts. (again HVY means nothing)
3. Russian players are exploiting this to death, in every ARR. Same as 1v1=2v1 and the old HQ build-up rules were exploits. Crappy rules cause exploiting by the player base in any game.
4. Because of this exploit the rail system is over rated.
5. Its impossible because of this exploit to reach historical levels of industry destoryed.
6. Its impossible because of this exploit to reach historical levels of men killed because russian players simply evac and run east leaving 75 to 80% of the front dead. With the russians staying just out of supply range. 3/4 of the front is a bore after turn 7.
7. Flaviusx wants whats good for the game, he did not want the 1v1=2v1 rule put into the game at all.
He saw the airbase bombing exploit and wanted it fixed. So even though he has an army of many fan boys (many might want to try thinking for themselfs at times) backing him up, if something is screwed up I beleive he will and has taken the time and do the right thing in the end for the game or atleast put his 10 cents into 2by3.

Dropping the manpower output would have helped, but because of the exploit russian players never have to worry about issues with equipment or manpower because they only have to fight around Leningrad and Moscow. They can easly keep the red army above 4 million men before mud sets in.

The current rail/hvy/evac rule set is broken and unbalancing the game. This is really not something thats is even a debate anymore its a clear matter of fact all sides see.

The only question is are you going to defend this exploit that is unbalancing the game or are you looking for a fair fix that will make the game better in the long run?

I think its more then clear to all sides other then the hard liners who really don't care about fair play or a better game that something needs to be done to address this exploit.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/18/2011 12:27:10 AM >

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Post #: 118

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/18/2011 1:13:11 AM

DTurtle

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Could you cite a source for the 50% of war industry in the invaded areas being destroyed?

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Post #: 119

RE: Over rated Russian rail system. - 10/18/2011 1:20:06 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
76mm hmmm, I am not going to lower myself to your level I just take the time and slowly explian things again.

50% of industry destoried is 50% of war industry not baby carriers, Good Sir.

We all 100% know and some are tring to address the exploit that Russian players are using.

So wasting poeples time tring to say its not an exploit or that 50% of war industry was not destoryed in the areas over run by the Germans is making you seem close minded and that you don't have the best interests of the game at heart.

I'm afraid you're going to have to keep explaining some things, because I still don't understand...

As to the 50%:
--I might have missed where this "historical fact" was established, along with an explanation of what this 50% means, so please provide the relevant cite and I will take a look;
--Similarly, I don't see where you or anyone else has established that 50% of "war industry" equates to 50% of armaments? How do you know it was not all Hvy?
--Even assuming that 50% of war industry in the areas taken by Germany was armaments which were completely destroyed, it did not exactly cripple the Sovs, did it? They produced massive quantities of everything they needed. So how does that help you?

As to it being an exploit:
--if hvy in fact means nothing, it is a game design issue, and Sov players can hardly be blamed for adopting strategies that will maximize their chances to win. It is no more an exploit than the way that certain German players take advantage of the deficiencies in the game's logistic modelling to achieve unrealistic advance rates;
--Moreover, as far as I understand, the devs/testers assert that hvy is important later in the game, and that Sovs players that ignore their hvy will regret it. I have no idea if this is true, but if so it is much too early to say. For instance, I note that hvy is used to produce ammunition, so shortages of hvy which are not noticeable when the Red Army is at 4 million and retreating could mean ammo shortages when it is at 7.5 million and attacking. But no one has gotten nearly far enough into the game under 1.05 to determine that... If hvy plays the non-role it seems to now, it would be removed or fixed.

Finally, as to your comment about "lowering yourself" my level, that I am close-minded, or (my favorite) "don't have the interests of the game at heart"...I'm not sure what exactly to say, other than:
--you are generally very loose with your facts and I consider it to be "in the best interest of the game" to point this out;
--I actually agree with you that a game in which the optimal Sov strategy is to simply retreat as fast as possible is neither particularly fun nor particularly realistic (you can see my massive 1941 losses in my AAR with Ketza to see how I tried to defend forward, and how that strategy is a complete loser in-game). I just don't agree with you as to why this strategy is favored, or how to fix the problem. I certainly don't agree that the problem should be fixed by placing unrealistic restrictions on evaccing Sov industry so to force the Sovs to defend in the West or have Sov industry crippled.

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Post #: 120