Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Is Routing working as designed??

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Is Routing working as designed?? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/21/2011 9:46:32 PM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		I'm not sure "routing" is working as designed. This example is from my current PBEM, using the 1.50.30 Beta.

In the example shown, the 15 SS Grenadier division is shown after a combat in which it was routed 7 hexes to the rear. I'm assuming it was encircled when it was attacked as it held one attack, and then routed - in an attack in which two German divisions lost 828 men to the first attack and 1161 men in the second when it routed - likely as it couldn't retreat.

So, lets examine the unit after being routed 70 miles, at least a portion of which was through enemy ZOCs.

First, the fatigue strikes me as well under what it should be after just moving 70 miles - let alone routing that distance, and being in two combats.

Second, strength and morale. For a unit that just suffered a rout, it only lost 1014 men and 32 guns, and the morale only went from 69 to 66 that's VERY light for being in two attacks and routing.

Third, logistics. Except for supply, which dropped from 267 to 156, every other aspect of logistics is pretty robust. Ammo is at 100% Support is 500 on hand for 458 required!!

So, after this "routing" the division is very much combat capable. And that's my overall point - I really don't think that is working as designed.

I would expect to see a routed unit severely lacking in logistical capability, heavily fatigued, greatly attritted for every hex routed and ZOC traversed and probably in an "unready" status - not one ready to get back in the line to hold up the Soviets!

Now, as the German in this PBEM, I'm very happy to have the division ready to go - but I have to assume that tank corps I just routed last turn, is similarly ready for combat, and that really bothers me.





Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/21/2011 10:19:19 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I think several folks have commented on the penalties for routing being too light.

IMO, I think the mechanics are fine from a game standpoint, but that there should be a higher price to pay in terms of captured men and lost equipment.

If that division lost 2000-3000 POWs, and half it's artillery, that would feel right to me

_____________________________


(in reply to IdahoNYer)
Post #: 2
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/22/2011 12:56:42 AM   
BletchleyGeek


Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Experience is key to keep Retreat losses down. I assure you that a Soviet Rifle division, if routing like that (it would rather perhaps shatter instead), would have left a stream of abandoned guns, mortars, machine guns, rifles, helmets and probably boots along those 70 miles.

_____________________________


(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 3
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/22/2011 2:21:51 AM   
Farfarer61

 

Posts: 713
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		I believe it is also due to to he fact the whole thing happened over a week, but all the player sees is one "side" of the endgame. It is still a good result for your side.

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 4
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/22/2011 4:14:22 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Q-Ball - I agree with your loss assessment - I would think it should be around 1%-10% per hex moved through, variable die-roll with morale modifier for each hex.

Bletchley - I agree morale should play a big part in a unit's cohesiveness - thereby reducing losses. But to me this is way TOO little (and I'm the Germans!), nor should it effect fatigue, which is also WAY too low for what this unit went through.

Farfarer - yeah, I wish I could tell the order of combats - or better yet, see a full replay. But that isn't going to happen....

(in reply to Farfarer61)
Post #: 5
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/22/2011 8:42:27 AM   
Swenslim

 

Posts: 437
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Odessa, Ukraine
Status: offline 		And what about double routing ? What damage suffers division if it was routed 2 or 3 times during 1 turn ?

(in reply to IdahoNYer)
Post #: 6
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/25/2011 12:32:47 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Swenslim

- Great Question!! My bet is not much, but I really can't be sure if a unit has routed more than once in a turn from how the combat is displayed. Am I missing something that shows this?

(in reply to Swenslim)
Post #: 7
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/25/2011 12:44:08 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Sounds like the unit was surrounded, but not isolated. That means at the start of the Soviet turn it could still trace a supply line. That allows it to rout out (which likely happened due to a retreat in a situation where there was no adjacent hex to retreat to). It is working as designed. The only way to kill the unit is to isolate it, which means having it cut off for a full turn. Other than that, all routs are treated the same, with distance travelled having no impact on the losses.My understanding is that experience (and/or morale) is what is most important to determining the losses due to the retreat and the rout move. We have a tough needle to thread, because retreat losses have been accused of being too high for good experience/morale troops. I don't know if the rout loss function is the same as the retreat loss function (I think it is, but will have to check). I'm pretty sure the retreat gets one set of losses, and the rout move gets another, so I do think there are extra losses due to the retreat (again will have to check). I think the functions are working as designed, although you may not agree with the losses generated. A lot is based on how beat up the unit is already. If you have lots of disabled elements, retreating/routing is a very bad thing. If you have mostly ready elements, it's not so bad.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to IdahoNYer)
Post #: 8
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/25/2011 1:06:23 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		I'm relatively satisfied with how route casualties accumulate for a unit that is involved in a combat (i.e., going from 'good order' to route combat result).

I'm not at all sure that the displacement losses that the manual indicates are suffered by a routing unit being forced to move away from an adjacent, enemy unit, are working at all.  I have no way of checking that I know of.


_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 9
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/25/2011 2:26:29 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Joel -

I can except the light losses due to relatively good morale - but the lack of fatigue is also surprising. Displacing 70 miles after being in two combats should render that unit badly in need of rest - regardless of morale.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 10
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/25/2011 10:45:09 AM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I'm not at all sure that the displacement losses that the manual indicates are suffered by a routing unit being forced to move away from an adjacent, enemy unit, are working at all.  I have no way of checking that I know of.


I played a number of turns chasing routers and then checking the casualties stats after each encounter. They are certainly taking losses. Whether or not that effects morale or fatigue, who knows?

The problem is that if you "play yourself" and try to check cause and effect, the engine is so random that it is very difficult to replicate what exactly is happening and why. For example, as the axis you may rout a unit, but when you switch to the Sov, that unit can either me routed or in good order. I have not been able to figure out how it all works to be quite honest, except to say that it is very random.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 11
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/25/2011 12:10:12 PM   
BletchleyGeek


Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer
Bletchley - I agree morale should play a big part in a unit's cohesiveness - thereby reducing losses. But to me this is way TOO little (and I'm the Germans!), nor should it effect fatigue, which is also WAY too low for what this unit went through.


We need to be careful about this. In this particular case, Morale has been completely irrelevant. Your unit routed because it had no retreat path. The only factor that - I think - had an influence here were the Ground Elements experience.

Regarding Fatigue. Those are the fatigue levels after your Logistics Phase, where Fatigue is reduced according to Supply basically. It got next to its HQ and on top of a railhead. Plenty of schnapps and wursts for these guys to recover a bit :)

And then, note that there might be still "pending" fatigue in that unit. Ground element disruption due to combat results doesn't translate into Fatigue until the next combat involving the unit. You can get an idea of how much disrupted your unit is by looking at the details of the Combat report. If I recall correctly from the manual, combat disruption doesn't go away completely until your opponent Logistic Phase.

_____________________________


(in reply to IdahoNYer)
Post #: 12
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/25/2011 4:07:53 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		The unit did regain some fatigue as well at the beginning of the turn...

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 13
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/25/2011 4:32:33 PM   
BletchleyGeek


Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

The unit did regain some fatigue as well at the beginning of the turn...


What was the mechanic involved for that, PDH?

_____________________________


(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)
Post #: 14
RE: Is Routing working as designed?? - 10/25/2011 6:07:47 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		During the Axis logistics phase at the start of the turn the unit attempts to regain fatigue, I assume from the shots above that the incident happened the turn before, and the unit routed behind the lines and into quite good supply (also free of enemy units so units could also repair themselves well too). Now, the fatigue does seem low, but one must remember that some of the fatigue did go away after the route.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 15
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Is Routing working as designed?? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.984