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Market Garden - 10/26/2011 8:45:38 AM

Grymme

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline

Well, my Vietnam project is almost finished. So i have started a little on my new project. If everything goes to plan it will be a huge Market Garden scenario.

Scale
The main challenge for this scenario will be scale. It will probably be the closest to a tactical scenario made so far for ATG (at least as i am aware of). A hex will be 600m across. Rounds will be 3hours long (5 hours for night rounds) and units will be on a company/troop level.

Since units will be on a company level this means that 1 infantry SFT will be something like 2-5 men, as for artillery and vehicles 1 SFT=2 vehicles/artillery tubes.

The allied divisional units involved were 1st Abn, 82nd Abn, 101st Abn, Gds Arm, 43rd and 50th. Also plenty of brigades. Given the scale this would mean that for example the british 1st Airborne Division (the Red Devils) would have something like 90 units with 2000 infantry SFTs, 12 artillery SFTs, 34 Antitank guns, and a lot of jeeps and other vehicles. So, a lot of units for either side.

Since 1 hex=600 meters fighting from 1 hex to another covers a combat distance of 1200 meters. This means that some mortars for example might have to be given artillery capacity. It also means that even a paultry light 75mm pack howitzer will have an artillery range of 10 hexes. But i think that most units will not need to have artillery values since effective combat range in WWII rarely was beyond 1200meters even though some of the weapons technical specifications may say so.

So far i have made the bulk of the map. The map is 200 hexes high and 60 hexes wide at its widest. So plenty of map to go around. Se screenshot. Graphics are not the final ones. I am satisfied with most graphics, but candidates for change are urban, suburban, mixed terrain. Roads will be divided into Primary roads, Secondary roads, Railroads and Trails.

screenshot shows an overview of the map. The cities visible are (from north to south Arnhem, Nijmegen and Eindhoven).

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 10/26/2011 9:59:05 AM >

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Post #: 1

RE: Market Garden - 10/26/2011 8:56:27 AM

Grymme

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline

This scenario will not be so heavy with events. But there will be some, mainly to simulate battlefield conditions etc.

Possible events will simulate
- Night rounds and night fighting.
- Unit fatigue from fighting.
- Supply drop zones and supply for airborne troops
- Artillery ammunition supplies
- Rules for unlimbering and limbering artillery
- Airlandings
- Repair and destruction of bridges through the major rivers.
- Crossing rivers in boats.
- Historical leaders

So far i have been working a little on the structure of the day event. The campaign scenario will last 10 days. Each day will be divided in 7 rounds. 06:00, 09:00, 12:00, 15:00, 18:00, 21:00 (night round) and 01:00 (night round. Weather, which will only affect airlandings, will be determined twice each day and will be separate for airplanes using the Northern or Southern air aproach route.

Airlanding rules will factor in the following.
- Weather
- If northern or southern approach route is taken
- What time of day the airlanding is atempted.
- Units can scatter of the designated dropzone.
- Units can take losses depending on above factors.
- Flak in the area
- What kind of terrain the unit lands in (impossible terrain, urban and river is not the preffered terrain to land in).

Possible other factors as well. I have only the skeleton of the event written so far, but i have an idea for the rest.

Here is the skeleton for the airlanding event.

0) CHECK: TempVar0 == 5
1) SETVAR: TempVar11 = 0
2) LOOPER: TempVar12 FROM 0 TO 4
3) SETVAR: TempVar10 = CheckRandomPercent
4) SETVAR: TempVar10 + Gameslot_S R weather(#7)
5) CHECK: TempVar10 > 50
6) CHECK: TempVar10 =< 70
7) SETVAR: TempVar2 - 1
8) SETVAR: TempVar3 - 1
9) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 51
10) SETVAR: TempVar2 + 2
11) END CHECK
12) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 51
13) SETVAR: TempVar3 + 2
14) END CHECK
15) END CHECK
16) END CHECK
17) CHECK: TempVar10 > 71
18) CHECK: TempVar10 =< 80
19) SETVAR: TempVar2 - 2
20) SETVAR: TempVar3 - 2
21) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 51
22) SETVAR: TempVar3 + 4
23) END CHECK
24) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 51
25) SETVAR: TempVar2 + 4
26) END CHECK
27) END CHECK
28) END CHECK
29) CHECK: TempVar11 == 0
30) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(5, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
31) END CHECK
32) CHECK: TempVar11 == 2
33) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(5, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
34) END CHECK
35) CHECK: TempVar11 == 1
36) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(5, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
37) END CHECK
38) CHECK: TempVar11 == 3
39) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(6, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
40) END CHECK
41) SETVAR: TempVar11 + 1
42) END LOOPER
43) EXECUTE: ExecGiveActionCard(2, 0)
44) END CHECK

Screenshot shows a the Arnhem area.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 10/26/2011 9:18:40 AM >

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(in reply to Grymme)

Post #: 2

RE: Market Garden - 10/26/2011 9:14:03 AM

Grymme

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline

I have started working a little on the units. So far i have made 5 or so different predefined units, all for the Red Devils.

Equipment will be historical whenever possible and i have also decided to have separate NATO counters for units belonging to Parachute Brigades, Airlanding Brigades and Rifle Brigades. This will mean a lot of extra work and might not have a huge impact on the game. But it sure looks purdy.

The unit shown is the A company of the 1st Parachute Battalion of the 1st Parachute Brigade of the 1st Airborne Division. Below is a 75mm howitzer troop from the 1st Airlandingh light Regiment.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 10/26/2011 9:34:46 AM >

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Post #: 3

RE: Market Garden - 10/26/2011 9:50:48 AM

Grymme

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline

As for scenarios etc i was thinking something like this
- 1*3 "smaller" scenario each four each of the 3 airborne divisions
- 1 "smaller" scenario for the brekout of the XXX Corps
- 1 grand campaign scenario covering the whole thing.

For a total of 5 scenarios. Of these 1-2 could be directly downloadable.

Smaller is really a misnomer for those scenarios since each of them would probably involve something like 100 units on each side and each small scenario would last something like 15 rounds.

Here is a screenshot to show the number of units compared to the scale of the map. The screenshot shows the units of 1 Parachute brigade defending the landing zone west of Arnhem. The wierd looking Nato counters are Airlanded troops with 6pnd Antitank Guns.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 4

RE: Market Garden - 10/26/2011 5:11:32 PM

Grymme

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline

Have created some more units, so i set out to recreate the entire 1st Airborne Division and place it, just to check out how it works and how strong it is.

Its 76 units with the following number of SFTs

1593 Riflemen
132 Sten Submachineguns
218 Piat Antitank Guns
388 Bren Machineguns
117 2inch Mortars
72 3inch Mortars
78 Engineers
184 Staff
56 Gun Crews
44 6pnd Antitank Guns
12 75mm Pack Howitzers
96 Jeeps

Here is a screenshot showing the whole thing of
- Black units are divisional units including
Major Goughs Motorized 1st Recconnoisance sqaudron
1st Light Artillery Regiment
Engineer Companies
Glider pilots
A lot of separate companies etc

- Yellow units are the 1st Airlanding Brigade
- Blue units are the 1st Parachute Brigade
- Green units are the 4th Parachute Brigade

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 10/26/2011 5:38:59 PM >

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Post #: 5

RE: Market Garden - 10/26/2011 8:16:32 PM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline

Wow ! Awesome !

I can tell you that for me at least the NATO style counters built into the scenario along with the specific historical units and timetables makes for a very immersive experience.

I find the scattering aspects particularly interesting.

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History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

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(in reply to Grymme)

Post #: 6

RE: Market Garden - 10/27/2011 6:15:28 PM

GrumpyMel

Posts: 864
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

Grymme,

I don't know where you find the time/energy

.

Looks amazing though. It'll be interesting to see how you deal with the scale issues....when you get that low you're really starting to deal with tactical combat....although I'm guessing you will abstract those details as AT doesn't really deal with things like LOS or some other tactical considerations.

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)

Post #: 7

RE: Market Garden - 10/27/2011 8:03:09 PM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline

Which does bring up an interesting side bar discussion; What would you consider to be the smallest possible map scale for a WWII style ATG scenario ?

_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to GrumpyMel)

Post #: 8

RE: Market Garden - 10/28/2011 9:54:45 AM

Grymme

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline

I dont have a life. No, seriously. I think its fun, its a hobby. Otherwise i wouldnt be doing it. My goal is to do a scenario on all wars, theaters, boardgames etc for the game. Obviously a long time project.

As for the scale. I do think the scale for this scenario touches around the lowest scale possible if you want to make a realistic scenario. Mainly because of LOS issues and because it would be really boring with a scenario where every unit had an artillery range. I do not think LOS will be an issue in this scenario though since very few weapons other than artillery hade an effective range of more than 1200 meters (2 hexes next to eachother). And those weapons that do have an effective range beoynd that are indirect fire weapons so the do not need line of sight. I could theoreticly see certain AFV and Antitank guns engaging at 1200 meters and beyond but i think that is such a rare occurence that it could be pretty much ignored.

Lets say the scale would be 150m or 300m. Then you would have a problem with LOS because machineguns and infantry guns and tanks would all need artillery capacity and then they are direct fire weapons.

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Post #: 9

RE: Market Garden - 10/30/2011 5:15:43 PM

Jay Doubleyou

Posts: 245
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline

Finally, Operation Market Garden!
Glad you are filling up this gap in the WW2 scenario's.
It was a very important WW2 operations and I think an intersting one to play with ATG.

(in reply to Grymme)

Post #: 10

RE: Market Garden - 10/30/2011 8:30:13 PM

Grymme

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline

Jay. Thanks. Well, it will be fun to make a mod on a somewhat popular topic for a change. I really really liked the Vietnam mod, but i was realistic enough to realize that it wouldnt be the most popular scenario that people would want (not to speak of making mods of strange wars in Central America). Interestingly though it seems that that particular mod seems to have had some devouted people. I have had several people email me who bought the computergame just to buy the Vietnam mod.

Now i was getting off topic. The reason i came into a Market Garden scenario is that the same guys who made the Vietnam boardgame (Victory Games) also have made a Market Garden boardgame (Hells Highway). Since i really really like Victory Games boardgames and would like to make mods of all their boardgames i started looking into it. In the end i felt their scale wrong for the subject. If you are fighting Market Garden you really want to feel the fighting from house to house in Arnhem. So in the end i choose to use the scale and look to the mechanics in the SPI monster boardghame Highway to the Reich instead.

Anyway this is a longwinding way to say that the boardgame that will be inspiring this mod will be SPI/DG Highway to the Reich

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/37912/highway-to-the-reich-2nd-edition

It will probably not follow as close to the Boardgame as Vietnam did. But i am quite sure i can achieve a cool mod anyway.

Anyway. I am still working on the the event to drop the paratroopers.

The skeleto of the Airdrop event has grown a little.

First here are the rules written as from the briefing

Air landing rules
Airlanding is attempted by playing the appropriate action card and choosing the hex where you want the unit to land.

Each time you try and land a unit there is a chance of each subunit scattering and landing in another hex than the one intended.

Scatter is determined by a random 100diceroll. To the value is added the weathervalue of the route chosen. Weather changes twice each day and is different if you choose the northern approach route or the southern approach route.

A roll of
50 or less means that the unit does not scatter
51-70 unit scatters +/- 1 hex in either direction
71-80 there is a 50 % chance unit scatters in +/-2 hexes in either direction

After scatter is resolved there is a chance that the unit takes losses during the landing.
The chance and size of losses depends on what type of landscape the unit lands in.

Terrain type...............................Percentage of loss in unit
Plain.........................................0-5%
Mixed terrain..............................0-10%
Light forest................................0-20%
Heavy forest..............................10-30%
Swamp......................................0-20%
Hills...........................................0-20%
Mountain....................................20-40%
Suburban....................................0-20%
Urban.........................................20-40%
City...........................................20-40%
River..........................................Unit automatically lost
Impassable..................................Unit automatically lost

The number of units landing on a single hex also affects losses. It is unwise to land more units in the exact same hex since losses are rolled for all units in a hex each time.

After scatter and losses are determined units will suffer an initial readiness penalty. Artillery units will always suffer a 100% readiness penalty. For other units the readiness penalty is calculated as follows (0,5*50+0,25*25+0,25*25+0,25*25).

Landing units will only have 25AP left.

Here are the current rules for air landing written in code form

0) SETVAR: TempVar11 = 0
1) ' Decide how many units drop
2) CHECK: TempVar0 == 5
3) SETVAR: TempVar17 = 5
4) END CHECK
5) CHECK: TempVar0 == 0
6) SETVAR: TempVar17 = 5
7) END CHECK
8) CHECK: TempVar0 == 1
9) SETVAR: TempVar17 = 6
10) END CHECK
11) CHECK: TempVar0 == 2
12) SETVAR: TempVar17 = 3
13) END CHECK
14) CHECK: TempVar0 == 3
15) SETVAR: TempVar17 = 6
16) END CHECK
17) CHECK: TempVar0 == 4
18) SETVAR: TempVar17 = 4
19) END CHECK
20) CHECK: TempVar0 == 6
21) SETVAR: TempVar17 = 4
22) END CHECK
23) LOOPER: TempVar12 FROM 0 TO TempVar17
24) SETVAR: TempVar10 = CheckRandomPercent
25) ' adjust for flight route chosen
26) CHECK: Gameslot_Use N Route(#10) == 1
27) SETVAR: TempVar10 + Gameslot_N R Weather(#8)
28) END CHECK
29) CHECK: Gameslot_Use S Route(#11) == 1
30) SETVAR: TempVar10 + Gameslot_S R weather(#7)
31) END CHECK
32) CHECK: TempVar10 > 50
33) CHECK: TempVar10 =< 70
34) SETVAR: TempVar2 - 1
35) SETVAR: TempVar3 - 1
36) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 51
37) SETVAR: TempVar2 + 2
38) END CHECK
39) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 51
40) SETVAR: TempVar3 + 2
41) END CHECK
42) END CHECK
43) END CHECK
44) CHECK: TempVar10 > 71
45) CHECK: TempVar10 =< 80
46) SETVAR: TempVar2 - 2
47) SETVAR: TempVar3 - 2
48) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 51
49) SETVAR: TempVar3 + 4
50) END CHECK
51) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 51
52) SETVAR: TempVar2 + 4
53) END CHECK
54) END CHECK
55) END CHECK
56) ' Losses because of landscape
57) SETVAR: TempVar16 = 5
58) CHECK: CheckLandscapeType(TempVar2, TempVar3) == 0
59) SETVAR: TempVar16 = 20
60) END CHECK
61) CHECK: CheckLandscapeType(TempVar2, TempVar3) == 2
62) SETVAR: TempVar16 = 10
63) END CHECK
64) CHECK: CheckLandscapeType(TempVar2, TempVar3) => 0
65) CHECK: CheckLandscapeType(TempVar2, TempVar3) =< 9
66) SETVAR: TempVar15 = CheckRandomPercent
67) CHECK: CheckLandscapeType(TempVar2, TempVar3) == 3
68) SETVAR: TempVar15 + 50
69) END CHECK
70) CHECK: CheckLandscapeType(TempVar2, TempVar3) => 6
71) CHECK: CheckLandscapeType(TempVar2, TempVar3) =< 7
72) SETVAR: TempVar15 + 100
73) END CHECK
74) END CHECK
75) CHECK: CheckLandscapeType(TempVar2, TempVar3) == 9
76) SETVAR: TempVar15 + 100
77) END CHECK
78) END CHECK
79) END CHECK
80) SETVAR: TempVar15 / TempVar16
81) ' adding units
82) CHECK: TempVar0 == 5
83) CHECK: TempVar11 == 0
84) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(5, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
85) END CHECK
86) CHECK: TempVar11 == 2
87) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(5, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
88) END CHECK
89) CHECK: TempVar11 == 1
90) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(5, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
91) END CHECK
92) CHECK: TempVar11 == 3
93) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(6, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
94) END CHECK
95) END CHECK
96) CHECK: TempVar0 == 4
97) CHECK: TempVar11 == 0
98) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(9, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
99) END CHECK
100) CHECK: TempVar11 == 1
101) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(9, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
102) END CHECK
103) CHECK: TempVar11 == 2
104) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(9, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
105) END CHECK
106) CHECK: TempVar11 == 3
107) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(12, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
108) END CHECK
109) CHECK: TempVar11 == 4
110) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(18, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
111) END CHECK
112) END CHECK
113) CHECK: TempVar0 == 0
114) CHECK: TempVar11 == 0
115) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(15, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
116) END CHECK
117) CHECK: TempVar11 > 0
118) CHECK: TempVar11 =< 3
119) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(17, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
120) END CHECK
121) END CHECK
122) CHECK: TempVar11 == 4
123) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(5, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
124) END CHECK
125) CHECK: TempVar11 == 5
126) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(11, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
127) END CHECK
128) END CHECK
129) CHECK: TempVar0 == 1
130) CHECK: TempVar11 > 0
131) CHECK: TempVar11 =< 6
132) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(8, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
133) END CHECK
134) END CHECK
135) CHECK: TempVar11 == 6
136) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(18, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
137) END CHECK
138) END CHECK
139) CHECK: TempVar0 == 2
140) CHECK: TempVar11 > 0
141) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(16, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
142) END CHECK
143) END CHECK
144) CHECK: TempVar0 == 3
145) CHECK: TempVar11 == 0
146) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(15, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
147) END CHECK
148) CHECK: TempVar11 > 0
149) CHECK: TempVar11 < 4
150) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(10, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
151) END CHECK
152) END CHECK
153) CHECK: TempVar11 == 4
154) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(18, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
155) END CHECK
156) CHECK: TempVar11 == 5
157) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(7, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
158) END CHECK
159) END CHECK
160) CHECK: TempVar0 == 6
161) CHECK: TempVar11 == 0
162) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(15, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
163) END CHECK
164) CHECK: TempVar11 > 0
165) CHECK: TempVar11 < 4
166) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(10, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
167) END CHECK
168) END CHECK
169) CHECK: TempVar11 == 4
170) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(18, TempVar2, TempVar3, 0)
171) END CHECK
172) END CHECK
173) EXECUTE: ExecRemoveTroops(TempVar2, TempVar3, 0, TempVar15)
174) EXECUTE: ExecRemoveTroops(TempVar2, TempVar3, 1, TempVar15)
175) EXECUTE: ExecRemoveTroops(TempVar2, TempVar3, 2, TempVar15)
176) EXECUTE: ExecRemoveTroops(TempVar2, TempVar3, 3, TempVar15)
177) ' Readines & AP of landed units
178) SETVAR: TempVar15 = CheckTotalUnits
179) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 50
180) EXECUTE: ExecUnitRdnModify(TempVar15, -50, -1, -1)
181) END CHECK
182) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 50
183) EXECUTE: ExecUnitRdnModify(TempVar15, -25, -1, -1)
184) END CHECK
185) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 50
186) EXECUTE: ExecUnitRdnModify(TempVar15, -25, -1, -1)
187) END CHECK
188) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < 50
189) EXECUTE: ExecUnitRdnModify(TempVar15, -25, -1, -1)
190) END CHECK
191) CHECK: CheckUnitSFType(TempVar15, 2, -1) > 0
192) EXECUTE: ExecUnitRdnModify(TempVar15, -75, -1, -1)
193) END CHECK
194) EXECUTE: ExecUnitApModify(TempVar15, -75, -1, -1)
195) ' remove losses and destroy units in impassable terrain
196) CHECK: CheckLandscapeType(TempVar2, TempVar3) == 1
197) SETVAR: TempVar14 = CheckTotalUnits
198) EXECUTE: ExecMessage(0, 2, -1, -1)
199) EXECUTE: ExecRemoveunit(TempVar14)
200) END CHECK
201) CHECK: CheckLandscapeType(TempVar2, TempVar3) == 50
202) SETVAR: TempVar14 = CheckTotalUnits
203) EXECUTE: ExecMessage(0, 2, -1, -1)
204) EXECUTE: ExecRemoveunit(TempVar14)
205) END CHECK
206) SETVAR: TempVar11 + 1
207) END LOOPER
208) END CHECK

Finally screenshot shows units during a night round.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

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http://atgscenarios.wordpress.com

30+ scenarios, maps and mods for AT and AT:G

(in reply to Jay Doubleyou)

Post #: 11

RE: Market Garden - 11/11/2011 8:24:36 AM

Grymme

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline

Unfortunatly i am having some issues with this mod. Mainly to find some of the OOB information i want.

I have all the info i need for the Airborne units. What i need are some placement and reinforcement information for the german and allied ground forces present.

I am moddeling the scenario after the boardgame Highway to the Reich and using reinforcement tables etc from that boardgame. Unfortunatly i am missing the above organizational charts. I have asked for them on boardgamegeek, but so far no result.

In any case. If anyone has the Higway to the Reich boardgame and would be willing to share those organization tables feel free so send me a PM.

I havent completely stopped working on the mod. I am doing some small bits and bobs on it and working on fixing some old projects until i know wether this project can be done or not.

Btw. The last months i have recieved a couple of the largest donations so far. I wont publish any names but i am very thankful to people who give something back (sometimes even with no strings attached) for my work.

Screenshot shows a german medium artillery battery. 13 hexes artillery range.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

My Advanced Tactics Mod page
http://atgscenarios.wordpress.com

30+ scenarios, maps and mods for AT and AT:G

(in reply to Grymme)

Post #: 12

RE: Market Garden - 11/11/2011 8:06:25 PM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grymme

Unfortunatly i am having some issues with this mod. Mainly to find some of the OOB information i want.

I have all the info i need for the Airborne units. What i need are some placement and reinforcement information for the german and allied ground forces present.

I am moddeling the scenario after the boardgame Highway to the Reich and using reinforcement tables etc from that boardgame. Unfortunatly i am missing the above organizational charts. I have asked for them on boardgamegeek, but so far no result.

In any case. If anyone has the Higway to the Reich boardgame and would be willing to share those organization tables feel free so send me a PM.

I havent completely stopped working on the mod. I am doing some small bits and bobs on it and working on fixing some old projects until i know wether this project can be done or not.

Btw. The last months i have recieved a couple of the largest donations so far. I wont publish any names but i am very thankful to people who give something back (sometimes even with no strings attached) for my work.

Screenshot shows a german medium artillery battery. 13 hexes artillery range.

I have a friend who has the game, however he's living in a different city up North, prolly about 6 hours driving time.

Have you tried Consimworld ?

Another idea, what about inbound aircraft losses due to AAA ?

_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Grymme)

Post #: 13

RE: Market Garden - 11/12/2011 12:42:53 PM

Grymme

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline

About airlanding losses from AA i am planning to implement that somehow. I just havent figured it out yet.

Jeffrey: Maybe your friend could take pictures or scan in the charts and then email them to you and you could send them to me. It would be a great help.

Thanks in advance

Grymme

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Post #: 14

RE: Market Garden - 11/12/2011 6:55:24 PM

Shadehawk

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From: Bod�, Norway
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Hi Grymme,

Thanks for all the good work!
I've sent you a PM. Hope you find it usefull.

Edit; on closer inspection I guess it doesn't contain what you need, sorry!

Regards,
SH

< Message edited by Shadehawk -- 11/12/2011 7:02:24 PM >

(in reply to Grymme)

Post #: 15

RE: Market Garden - 11/14/2011 4:22:48 PM

Grymme

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Shadehawk.

Thanks, but yeah, thats not the charts i need. Hopefully i am getting some help on this though.

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Post #: 16

RE: Market Garden - 11/16/2011 8:09:49 PM

Grymme

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Finally some good news on the development of this mod. I found the missing organizational charts. Thanks to all people who have tried to help me.

Anyway, i now have all the six organizational charts. So now on to making and placing all these nice units. Its a lot of work, but much easier with the charts.

I actually found that the designer of the boardgame had posted them publicly so there shouldnt be any problem reposting them here.

To illustrate the amount of units to be placed here is a screenshot of the organizational chart for the 30th Corps. Thats approximatly 450 different units in one of the six organizational charts of the game. A lot of work... maybe....

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 11/16/2011 8:15:15 PM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Market Garden - 11/18/2011 7:28:26 PM

Jeffrey H.

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That's good news, I was striking out left and right.

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Post #: 18

RE: Market Garden - 11/18/2011 7:30:44 PM

Jeffrey H.

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From: San Diego, Ca.
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Neat chart BTW, that's modern graphics for you. Much better than the old SPI stuff for sure.

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History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

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Post #: 19

RE: Market Garden - 11/18/2011 8:00:48 PM

Grymme

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Joined: 12/16/2007
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Jeffrey. Thanks for trying to help anyway. Its the thought that counts.

Now that i have most of what i want i am starting to place the 100s of units and code the reinforcement events. I remember advicing LoJ a while ago that his mods might have a tad to many units. Well, this will most likely be my biggest forray into that tendency. At least i hope that i will never do a mod with more units than this one.

To give a perspective. This is what 50% of the Guards armored division + 231st Infantry Brigade looks like when you do a mod on company/troop level. 88 units.

Anyway. Work is going swimmingly now. But if anyone by chance should have the answer to any of these questionmarks. Feel free to answer.
1) Did Major Goughs 1st Air Reconnoisance Squadron (Red Devils) have any tankettes or other AFVs? Or where they just equipped with upgunned Jeeps. So far i have seen one reference to british tankettes fighting in Arnhem. But i would like to know more.
2) As far as i can tell the Guards Armored division was mainly equipped with Sherman MkIV Fireflys and M5 Stuart Light tanks. But i am believing that the Welsh Guards Armored Battalion (yellow in the organizational chart) was equipped with some other kind of tank. Anyone know which one?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 11/18/2011 8:17:32 PM >

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Post #: 20

RE: Market Garden - 11/24/2011 4:15:41 PM

Shadehawk

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For 1, I found the following information here: [color=#0000ff size=3]http://www.combatreform.org/groundvehiclephotos.htm

MYSTERY: the British tank museum's Tetrarch light tank has a 3" gun for high explosive fire support as shown above. So don't even try to whine about these light tanks being inadequate to kill heavier German tanks, they were needed primarily to BLAST GERMAN INFANTRY OUT OF BUILDINGS, BUNKERS AND DUG-IN POSITIONS. This was known AT THE TIME as proven by the Tetrarch with the 3 inch gun. Yet we only know the 6th Airborne Division having an Armored Reconnaissance unit with light tanks, not the 1st Brititsh Airborne which landed near Arnhem. The photo above of a Hamilcar at a landing zone west of Arnhem adds to the mystery as SOMETHING has rolled off its front nose ramp. We also know 412 Hamilcar heavy gliders were built so the question arises WHY DIDN'T THE BRITISH GLIDER-LAND A FORCE OF 100-400 LIGHT TANKS AND BREN GUN CARRIERS WEST OR ARNHEM AND PUNCH THEIR WAY THROUGH TO REINFORCE LTC FROST'S MEN? Why didn't they fit large guns to Bren gun carriers and glider land them?

Keith Flint in his startling book, Airborne Armour solves the mystery.
1. The slacker British industry didn't have any urgency to make Hamilcar heavy gliders so there were less than 50 at the time of Arnhem

2. The British military being smart to see the need for glider-delivered light tanks was not bright enough to realize that just because German tanks CAME TO THEM when in the DEFENSE at Normandy to be blasted by their static after being towed by trucks 6-pounder and 17-pounder anti-tank guns---did not mean they should not take any light tanks that could fire-from-the-move to Arnhem when in the OFFENSE. This fatal error cost them the battle and extended the war by 1 year.

3. 18 Bren gun tracked tankettes were glider-landed 8 miles west of Arnhem bridge but instead of mounting 75mm or other guns they were used to CARRY SUPPLIES for the infantry. According to General Gavin in his 1947 book, Airborne Warfare a mere two armored cars held up the British infantry from reaching LTC Frost's men already at the bridge by blasting Freddy Gough's 1st Recce Squadron's unarmored jeeps towing 20mm Polsten anti-aircraft guns that were not ready-to-fire.

4. 1st Airborne Recce Squadron commander, Major Freddie Gough had asked for the 6th Airborne Recce Squadron's unused Tetrarch light tanks for his coup de main mission but was ignored and thus failed because he was in unarmored jeeps.

I don't know if it's acurate, but it's what I could find on the subject.

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Post #: 21

RE: Market Garden - 11/25/2011 7:03:21 AM

Jeffrey H.

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From: San Diego, Ca.
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Regarding your item 2, I found this wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guards_Armoured_Division

There is a photo there of a Sherman crossing the bridge @ Nijmegan. From the hull shape and gun, I'd say it's an early Sherman, possibly even a 75 mm gunned version.

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Post #: 22

RE: Market Garden - 11/25/2011 7:06:44 AM

Jeffrey H.

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And this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Armoured_formations_of_the_Second_World_War

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Post #: 23

RE: Market Garden - 11/25/2011 7:15:08 AM

Jeffrey H.

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From: San Diego, Ca.
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In particular this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Guards

Note the following excerpt:

"...While they battled on in those theatres the 1st and 2nd joined the Guards Armoured Division, with the 1st Battalion being infantry and the 2nd armoured..."

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Post #: 24

RE: Market Garden - 11/25/2011 7:24:01 AM

Jeffrey H.

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Not sure if you found this:

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/battles_arnhem.html

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Post #: 25

RE: Market Garden - 11/30/2011 7:48:23 AM

Grymme

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Shadehawk & Jeffrey: Thanks guys. Appreciated.

Work is going steady, although slow. Had a setback last week when i managed to save over a couple of days work. I am slowly placing units and reinforcements and working on some events when i have the time over. Which is not often.

This mod will have some changes to the system of readiness. Basicly there will be dayturns and nightturns. During day turns units do not recover readiness. So a unit that looses readiness because of combat or lack of supplies will have to wait to a nighturn to recover it. Also possibly units that move might loose a little readiness (havent decided this yet).

During night rounds units do recover readiness. Units can move as normal, but units that do move loose more readiness than they would have recovered because they are using time that should be spent resting to move instead. Also during night turns there is a -50% modifier on offensive action.

One reason that work is going pretty slow is that i constantly have to check what equipment is in a certain type of unit and then create the SFTs for that unit. So far i have created the following SFTs.

Light Rifle
Rifle
Bren Machinegun (MG)
MG 34/42 (MG)
MP 38/40 (SMG)
Sten Gun (SMG)
Piat (AT)
RP43 (AT)
2inch mortar
3inch mortar
81mm Mortar
Engineer
Gun Crew
Staff
6pnd Antitank Gun
17pnd Antitank Gun
75mm Pak 97/38
Jeep
Kubelwagen
Wagon
Motorcycle
Truck
Bren Carrier (994)
SdKfz 250/1
Daimler Dingo Scout Car
Humber Scout Car
Staghound T17 Armored Car
Sdkfz 233
Sdkfz 234/1
75mm Pack Howitzer
Sexton SP 25pnd Gun
M7 PRiest 105mm How
17cm Kanone 18 (283)
105mm LeHF
25pnd gun (230)
Grille SiG 15cm (365)
Cromwell
Sherman M4 Firefly
Sherman M4
M5 stuart
Jagdpanzer IV
PzKpfw IIIJ
PzKpfw IV
PxKpfw V Panther
88L56 FlaK18
2cm Flak38
Quad 2cm Flak38

I have now placed all the starting units of the XXX Corps.

A lot of units, as can be seen by this screenshot. The white units to the right is the Dutch Princess Irene Brigade. Missing from the picture is 2/3rds of the 15&19th Hussars (light green in the lower left side of the map. But other than that this is the entire British starting forces.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 11/30/2011 7:51:29 AM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Market Garden - 11/30/2011 8:25:53 AM

lion_of_judah

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Grymme
how did you get it too look night-time in one of the earlier screenshots, looks rather cool. I'm normally tired of WW2 scenarios, but this has peeked my interest....

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Post #: 27

RE: Market Garden - 12/11/2011 3:30:45 PM

Grymme

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
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Lion. Its actually quite easy. There is an exec in the editor called Execweathercolour that changes the entire colour of the map.

Still working on this mod although it is slow going. Adding some 5-10 units every day. Which isnt that much considering there are maybe some 1 000 units to add.

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(in reply to lion_of_judah)

Post #: 28

RE: Market Garden - 12/12/2011 1:04:37 AM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
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From: San Diego, Ca.
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Well, maybe I can help ? If it's just sort of grunt labor type stuff, metahporically speaking, maybe I can take some of the load off you ?

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Post #: 29

RE: Market Garden - 12/12/2011 7:13:13 AM

Grymme

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
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Thanks for the offer. It is a lot of grunt labour stuff. But to be honest i think it still wouldnt be more efficient to send savefile back and forth.

Still i am making some progress. As i think i stated before i was thinking of making separate smaller scenarios for each of the divisional landings. As for the Arnhem landing i am finished with all of the 1st Airborn Division units, all of the Polish Brigade units, all at start german units and have only 71 german reinforcements left to place. That isnt actually not as much as it sounds since a lot of the placements are of several units of the same type in the same place. If you account for that its 31 individual placements left. Since i make around 5 placements each day this should be finished in a week or so.

I have also finished all of the 30th Corps units at start and all of the german units at start opposite 30th corps. But havent started reinforcements at all. Also have all of the central sector units at start, reinforcements, and all US airborne units left to place.

A cool sidenote. This scenario will feature a german tank company equipped with the old french heavy tank Char B. Its not to often you find scenarios using this.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 12/12/2011 7:57:51 AM >

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