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Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/27/2011 11:46:12 AM

invernomuto

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Hi,
could anyone suggest me a good book (or an internet resource) about Logistic for the Eastern Front? E.g. I would like to know infos like the daily ammo expenditure by a German or Russian division or the daily fuel usage by a Panzer division. Is there something that covers that subject?
Thanks in advance.

Bye

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/27/2011 1:17:14 PM

aspqrz02

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I'd have to check, but I think the US War Department's 1944 "Handbook of German Military Forces" has some data on that in it somewhere ... it was reprinted by one of the US University Presses maybe 10 years or so ago.

Apart from that, I can't think of anything specific on WW2 German Units ...

However, I am sure that one of the US military logistic planning documents was available online (at the ATDL, IIRC, but that seems offline permanently) ... USMC? ... and it had tables of logistic data for Amphibious Assaults. The version I saw was hand altered with crossings out (in a scanned PDF) but had 1950's equipment plus some updating, it may be of some help if you can track it down.

Field Manual 55-15 has data for current US Army units, and may give a general idea.

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 10/27/2011 1:30:50 PM >

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/27/2011 1:37:20 PM

herwin

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Try a good university research library for German and Russian language sources.

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/27/2011 2:24:33 PM

wosung

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Martin Van Crefeld, Supplying War:

A German fast division (armour, motorized) needed 300 tons of supplies a day. An I.D. perhaps 200 tons, p.159. A German fast division in North Africa needed 350 tons a day, inluding water, p.185.

In June 1941 a German fast division had an organic fuel carrying capacity of 430 tons, plus 400-500 tons additional by Heerestransport columns, pp.151-152. Each German division started that war with 2-3 basic loads of ammo, plus there was a Heeres reserve for ammo for 20 divisions, p. 151.

In Summer 1941 in Russia a German 100 km (60 mi) Verbrauchssatz (authorized fuel consumption) lasted for 70 only, because of bad roads. In the first year in Russia the Heer needed 330.000 tons of fuel per month instead of planned 250.000 tons p.157.

Overlord planners calculated with 600-650 tons of supply per Wally division and day, 300-350 were needed p. 215, 228.

Each of the 4 x (1000+ pages) volumes of "Germany and the Second World War" dealing with the war in Russia (two of them do so exclusively) has a chapter or a few pages about logistics. Please note that until now only a few of those over 10 volumes are translated into English (The rest probably also will be translated).

In July 1941 the Ostheer needed 12.000 tons of fuel per day. 9.000 were planned. Vol.4, p. 963.

In the first year of that war, from June 1941 to April 1942 the Ostheer needed on average 90.000 tons of ammo per month. Far more than anticipated. In the second year the ammo consumption rose on average to 117.000 tons (or 260 ammo trains) per month, with the infantry ammo being doubled because of Stalingrad, Vol. 6, p 789, Vol. 8, p. 19.

Regards

< Message edited by wosung -- 10/27/2011 2:32:07 PM >

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/27/2011 3:45:20 PM

Montbrun

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"Germany and the Second World War" - most have been translated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_and_the_Second_World_War

and can be purchased from Oxford University Press:

http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/category/academic/series/history/gsww.do

You can sometimes find a good deal second-hand or on eBay.

Brad

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/27/2011 4:07:09 PM

wosung

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Thank you!

That Wiki entry is a good comprehensive overview in English.

Although pricey (If you can read German you can get the series for 20-40 Euros per volume), and although the earlier volumes are some twenty years old and ageing (esp. the Barbarossa Volume 4), I can really recommend the series. Esp. Vol. 8 is one of the best titles I've read about the Ostkrieg.

Regards

< Message edited by wosung -- 10/27/2011 4:15:12 PM >

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/27/2011 9:32:39 PM

Richrd

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I disagree with the above figures. The entire 6th Army requested 500 tons a day as it's minimum requirement. In War without Garlands, a book just chock full of numbers, he quotes 70 tons/day for a division. Also refer Stopped at Stalingrad, or something like that.

< Message edited by Richrd -- 10/27/2011 9:34:16 PM >

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/27/2011 9:46:52 PM

herwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richrd

I disagree with the above figures. The entire 6th Army requested 500 tons a day as it's minimum requirement. In War without Garlands, a book just chock full of numbers, he quotes 70 tons/day for a division. Also refer Stopped at Stalingrad, or something like that.

Perhaps 500 tons a day of trace supply for the Armee. Fuel or ammunition was more like 300 tons per division-day in heavy combat.

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/27/2011 9:53:01 PM

Lieste

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Some of those supply figures look somewhat out of context... that the W Allies had a requirement of 600 tons and "only used" 300-350 tons might have a lot more to do with a chronic shortage of (Regimental/Divisional/{Light} Corps) artillery ammunition (one of the biggest consumers of weight for ammunition), and the difficulty in moving any supply forward by roads, than the supply 'requirement' of the force. Ultimately a unit will do the best with what is on hand - but I don't recall anyone seriously claiming that supply was excessive for a typical division during Normandy or the advance to the Westwall.

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/27/2011 10:52:00 PM

wosung

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richrd

I disagree with the above figures. The entire 6th Army requested 500 tons a day as it's minimum requirement. In War without Garlands, a book just chock full of numbers, he quotes 70 tons/day for a division. Also refer Stopped at Stalingrad, or something like that.

When did the entire 6th army needed 500 tons a day? When immobilized & already downsized at Stalingrad? Minimum requirement means minimum, like in not able to put up a great show.

Regards

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/27/2011 10:59:23 PM

wosung

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieste

Some of those supply figures look somewhat out of context... that the W Allies had a requirement of 600 tons and "only used" 300-350 tons might have a lot more to do with a chronic shortage of (Regimental/Divisional/{Light} Corps) artillery ammunition (one of the biggest consumers of weight for ammunition), and the difficulty in moving any supply forward by roads, than the supply 'requirement' of the force. Ultimately a unit will do the best with what is on hand - but I don't recall anyone seriously claiming that supply was excessive for a typical division during Normandy or the advance to the Westwall.

That's what Crefeld wrote. In 1944 Wally units were supposed to be really lavishly supplied, compared to German ones, but were bigger than the latter too. Crefeld's point (the context you referred to) here is, because Wally planned standard divisional supply was excessive, operations in France were over-cautious when those high supply standards were not met.

Regards

< Message edited by wosung -- 10/27/2011 11:02:45 PM >

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/27/2011 11:07:36 PM

invernomuto

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Thank you very much! Very useful information.

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/28/2011 12:02:12 AM

Richrd

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I still don't buy into 300 tons a day per division. Hard and fast logistical information on the eastern front is hard to come by. I guess that not a lot of people are really interested in that aspect. I am, and have collected some tidbits over the years. I have some info somewhere that I'll try to dig up.

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/28/2011 12:44:19 AM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richrd

I still don't buy into 300 tons a day per division. Hard and fast logistical information on the eastern front is hard to come by. I guess that not a lot of people are really interested in that aspect. I am, and have collected some tidbits over the years. I have some info somewhere that I'll try to dig up.

part of the problem is the multitude of standards of what is "needed". The ability of a division to consume supply was enormous and most of this consumption was in the artillery. Just one example, if just the 105's in a division (18) fired one round every five minutes, you would consume over 85 tons per day while at the maximum RoF the 105's consume about two tons/minute. So the division supply requiremnt is principly determined by what the artillery needs to do.

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/28/2011 7:28:04 AM

Balou

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One more. It's a pdf at

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol6no4/pdf/v06i4a07p.pdf

Link refers to an estimate made by by US officials in 41/42. Below an excerpt.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/28/2011 8:53:59 AM

wosung

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richrd

I still don't buy into 300 tons a day per division. Hard and fast logistical information on the eastern front is hard to come by. I guess that not a lot of people are really interested in that aspect. I am, and have collected some tidbits over the years. I have some info somewhere that I'll try to dig up.

Well, I don�t want to sell you a thing. I�m just presenting some data from named sources. You should be able to check those data.

Just don�t buying it is a bit ... thin.

FWIW:
From Germany and the 2nd WW, Vol. 6.
Fuel consumption Ostheer Mid Oct 1941- Mid March 1942 667.292 cubic meters or tons, on average 11 trains a day. For this period, ammo consumption was 390.000 tons, pp. 788-790.
Daily fuel consumption Ostheer in Sept. 1942.: 5.000-6.000 cubic meters or tons, p. 946.

As for the German 6th Army:
As early as in Sept. 1942 it was operating at the very end of the logistical chain, so that air supply was needed. There wasn�t enough fodder for it�s 100.000 horses, rations (potatoes, vegetables, meat, flour) were lacking. The needed cattle herds were too slow to arrive before mud, thus additionally 1500 tons canned meat monthly was needed. As for flour, 6th Army consumed 6.000 tons a month, plus 1.000 tons for the Rumenian troops. Transportation also was lacking. To build a solid railbridge across the Don 70 train loads of material were calculated. In Aug. 1942 6th Army quarter master calculated, that until may 1943 that army would need 1452 train loads (600 tons each) of supplies (rations, cloths, building material, fodder) � note that ammo and fuel are not part of that list. As for fuel, in october when 6th Army wasn�t moving much any longer, 850 cubic meter/tons per day were allowed, but only 456 tons could be delivered, pp.988-992.

Regards

< Message edited by wosung -- 10/28/2011 4:16:14 PM >

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/28/2011 9:17:24 AM

Lieste

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The supplies listed above are for a US Estimate for a German 'Division Slice' not just for a Division - they include GHQ troops, so care must be taken not to double count these, or the support weapons they include (27,000 vs 16,000 TOE vs ?? Actual strength).

Also note the conclusion is that these figures have almost no agreement to the on the ground realities - and this report is most important as it broke new ground in intelligence analysis, not because it is correct.

< Message edited by Lieste -- 10/28/2011 9:23:24 AM >

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/29/2011 11:02:27 PM

goranw

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Hi!
A map done by OKH.
Supplies delivered up to 2 july in area Nord.
Goran

Attachment (1)

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/30/2011 11:05:23 AM

wosung

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Really interesting! Thank you for posting this.

Is this map part of a publication?

regards

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/30/2011 10:48:33 PM

Jeffrey H.

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I would think the divisional supply rates would have to be normalized to a 'per head' basis across nationalities.

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/30/2011 11:04:38 PM

Omat

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Hello

I would like to know if many players will be pleased when WitE merge with the game Railroad Tycoon

Omat

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/31/2011 7:32:12 AM

Balou

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Reichsbahn Tycoon: making a fortune with zillions of Hiwis as cheap labor

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/31/2011 6:38:47 PM

marty_01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

Really interesting! Thank you for posting this.

Is this map part of a publication?

regards

+1. That is an interesting map.

I am wondering how to interpret some of the symbology being employed on the figure. For example the supply head at Daugavpils. Is the heavy black line leading from the Polish Border to Daugavpils a rail line being employed by AGN for supply? Or is this a road being utilized for supply? If the former, than German railroad crews were repairing and converting track a lot more rapidly than in game FBD.

What does the symbol with the three horizontal lines and two circles (wheels) represent? Is that a symbol for truck transportation of supply -- or a symbol for rolling stock?

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/31/2011 7:03:26 PM

marty_01

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As I recall N.Zetterling does include a schmattering of bits on ammunition utilization on the Eastern Front -- at least in his book on the Korsun Pocket. A number of years ago he sent me some data he had found on tank (panzer) ammunition expenditures by Kampgruppe Bake during it relief efforts. It's always rather enlightening to look at such figures as it gives an interesting perspective into the immense quantities\tonnage of ammuntion required by combat units.

The chart posted by Balou above is a pretty good and appears fairly consistent with other such figures I've come across over the years -- and perhaps even conservative in some respects. Yes, it represents averages based upon a particular TO&E. Typically the assumed TO&E will be footnoted or the like. The probem with calc'ing a per-head number from a per division is that understrength To&E often represents a reduced infantry strength. Artillery Strength -- which is a supply tonnage hog when it comes to ammunition expenditures -- may be close to 100% of paper strength even when infantry strength of a particular combat unit is below 50%.

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/31/2011 8:04:56 PM

wosung

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty_01

+1. That is an interesting map.

I am wondering how to interpret some of the symbology being employed on the figure. For example the supply head at Daugavpils. Is the heavy black line leading from the Polish Border to Daugavpils a rail line being employed by AGN for supply? Or is this a road being utilized for supply? If the former, than German railroad crews were repairing and converting track a lot more rapidly than in game FBD.

What does the symbol with the three horizontal lines and two circles (wheels) represent? Is that a symbol for truck transportation of supply -- or a symbol for rolling stock?

Arguably the heavy black line isn�t rail. There�s a nice toyish locomotive symbol with a thin line SW of Kaunas.

Rectangles or stripes with two small circles underneath =motorized units.
With one circle = mixed motorized
2 stripes with two small circles underneath is a 30 tons motor transport unit,
3 stripes = 60 tons.
The black gearwheel = maintenance unit.
Two crossed shovels, you surely know, is a construction unit.
A rectangle in a rectangle is a (vehicle) park.
Black rectangle flag = III (Reg.)
Black trinagle flag = II (Bat.)
Stripe with two small circles underneath,and an axe = butchery unit, motorized
Stripe with two small circles underneath,and a bread = bakery unit, motorized
+ = medical

Here you can find taktische Zeichen (tactical signs)
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_39.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_41.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_43.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_41-lw.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_figures.html

Regards

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/31/2011 8:19:30 PM

marty_01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

Arguably the heavy black line isn�t rail. There�s a nice toyish locomotive symbol with a thin line SW of Kaunas.

Rectangles or stripes with two small circles underneath =motorized units.
With one circle = mixed motorized
2 stripes with two small circles underneath is a 30 tons motor transport unit,
3 stripes = 60 tons.
The black gearwheel = maintenance unit.
Two crossed shovels, you surely know, is a construction unit.
A rectangle in a rectangle is a (vehicle) park.
Black rectangle flag = III (Reg.)
Black trinagle flag = II (Bat.)
Stripe with two small circles underneath,and an axe = butchery unit, motorized
Stripe with two small circles underneath,and a bread = bakery unit, motorized
+ = medical

Here you can find taktische Zeichen (tactical signs)
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_39.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_41.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_43.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_41-lw.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_figures.html

Regards

Very good! Thanks.

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 10/31/2011 8:30:49 PM

wosung

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty_01

As I recall N.Zetterling does include a schmattering of bits on ammunition utilization on the Eastern Front -- at least in his book on the Korsun Pocket. A number of years ago he sent me some data he had found on tank (panzer) ammunition expenditures by Kampgruppe Bake during it relief efforts. It's always rather enlightening to look at such figures as it gives an interesting perspective into the immense quantities\tonnage of ammuntion required by combat units.

The chart posted by Balou above is a pretty good and appears fairly consistent with other such figures I've come across over the years -- and perhaps even conservative in some respects. Yes, it represents averages based upon a particular TO&E. Typically the assumed TO&E will be footnoted or the like. The probem with calc'ing a per-head number from a per division is that understrength To&E often represents a reduced infantry strength. Artillery Strength -- which is a supply tonnage hog when it comes to ammunition expenditures -- may be close to 100% of paper strength even when infantry strength of a particular combat unit is below 50%.

Not only the need of ammo is telling, but also the ammo consumption per ammo category. Apparently in the Wehrmacht mines & sticky charges in 1943 weren�t used as much as before � arguably training deficies & bad surviving chances in close quarter anti-tank warfare.7,5 cm Pak ammo in 1943 seems to have been used not in large quantities � arguably German Pak nests in 1943 had little chances to survive long.
For data and conclusions see: Germany in the Second World War, Vol. 5.2, pp. 639-647 (Chapter: Ammonition and fighting power).

Esp. the production of Flak ammo became a real sinkhole for German ressources during the war.

I also don�t think per-head number supply consumption is easy to do. There are so many factors.

Regards

< Message edited by wosung -- 10/31/2011 8:36:42 PM >

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 11/1/2011 12:08:54 AM

goranw

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Hi! OBS http://allworldwars.com/Comments-on-Russian-Roads-and-Higways-by-Max-Bork.html
From COMMENTS ON RUSSIAN RAILROADS AND HIGHWAYS
By Gen. Lt. a.D, Max Bork
It could be downloaded with more maps and interesting text from the net.
2 maps showing the rate of repairing the Baltic rail lines.
Sorry for the quality.
Goran

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by goranw -- 11/1/2011 12:13:55 AM >

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 11/1/2011 2:06:04 PM

goranw

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Hi!
To relate to the maps above. Here is Start turn 5 17/7 of the Barbarossa scenario.
AI against AI. THe German offensive keeps in a very historical way up to the "timetable"
Compare with the frontlines 13/7 (yellow) on the date-frontline map.This is very good
and thats of course the main thing but the railway advance ( supply importance) doesnt keep up.
Look at the detailed OKH railway map.
The difference is big. In the game its quite impossible to keep up.
Ex first train to Pernau 12 july. To Rositten 10 july and to Pskow (Pleskau) 24 july.
Goran

Attachment (1)

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RE: Books on Eastern Front Logistic? - 11/1/2011 3:35:07 PM

wosung

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quote:

ORIGINAL: goranw

Hi!
To relate to the maps above. Here is Start turn 5 17/7 of the Barbarossa scenario.
AI against AI. THe German offensive keeps in a very historical way up to the "timetable"
Compare with the frontlines 13/7 (yellow) on the date-frontline map.This is very good
and thats of course the main thing but the railway advance ( supply importance) doesnt keep up.
Look at the detailed OKH railway map.
The difference is big. In the game its quite impossible to keep up.
Ex first train to Pernau 12 july. To Rositten 10 july and to Pskow (Pleskau) 24 july.
Goran

Thank's again for posting those maps.
As for the "slow" WitE RR repair, compared to history:

-Do the schedule maps above show IRL repair progress or only the planning?
-Because RR track & (un)loading capacity etc. is not part of WiTE, arguably it might be difficult to model IRL railheads. Those didn't mean up to those farest points RR transport was perfect or even good.

Regards

(in reply to goranw)

Post #: 30