Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

While trying to understand how Vassal does things, I'm playing a solitaire game there. Now, something has happened, which probably won't happen to anybody else (are the dice in Vassal loaded?)...

The USSR claimed Bessarabia (SO 1939, with a very aggressive Axis play due to very nice weather, so no problems with regards to US entry). The Germans denied the claim, since the USSR probably wasn't able to get units into Rumania in the impulses remaining in the turn (a little gamble on their part with Zhukov on the border, however to end the turn in this allied impulse a 6 had to be rolled, and if there was going to be another one than the Axis could end the turn by passing and rolling a 9 or lower...), so the USSR went to war with the Rumanian army over Bessarabia. They got a two attacks on the 2D10 table (+ 10) and rolled two times: 2 (statistic complete out of the way, but this was the result...). They needed a breakthrough result on one of those attacks to enter Rumania, the other one should empty a hex in Bessarabia. However, no losses on both sides, and all attackers flipped and no Soviet units in Bessarabia, since the attacks were aimed at killing Rumanian Corps set up on the border in Bessarabia...
I guess Zhukov & Co. did a strike or something. Someone should be shot...
The USSR airforce wasn't on strike however and bombed the Ploesti oil fields with significant damage (2 Oil points lost).

Of course, the turn ended an impulse later (Axis not passing, why would they, with the complete Russian army flipped on the border), and peace was declared by Germany, reverting Rumania back to it's neutral status with Bessarabia still in Rumanian hands...

Now, I got a little confused, since I'm getting the impression that in N/D 1939 the USSR might claim Bessarabia again: here is RAW:

Rumania denies the claim
If Rumania denies the USSR’s claim, the USSR must immediately
declare war on Rumania.
Germany can enforce a peace between Rumania and the USSR during
any peace step if:
• no hex of Rumania, outside of Bessarabia, is Soviet controlled;
and
• Germany and the USSR are not at war.
If Rumania and the USSR come to peace:
• Rumania again becomes a neutral minor country;
• the USSR keeps control of Bessarabia provided there is a Soviet
land unit anywhere in Bessarabia; and
• Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned
with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.
If the USSR conquers Rumania:
• Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any
later Axis declaration of war step; and
• Bulgaria can never align with Germany but the USSR can
declare it aligned with the USSR during any later Allied
declaration of war step.
While Rumania and the USSR are at war:
• Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any
Axis declaration of war step; and
• Bulgaria can not align with either Germany or the USSR.

End of RAW...

No where in the rules is written that the USSR isn't allowed to do so. If Finland comes te peace, the USSR isn't allowed to DOW Finland again. With Rumania that doesn't seem te be the case. Is this correct?

Of course, as Germany I can prevent this from happening by aligning Rumania (it is now the first impulse of ND 1939, and Axis got the initiative), but than I don't get Antonescu for free, since he's coming in 1940... I would prefer to wait, but if the USSR is really capable of repeating this action, I will align Rumania now.

So: am I seeing things right that the USSR is able to again claim Bessarabia in the next Allied Impulse?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
What is the problem?

If the USSR 'claims' Bessarabia a second time (although they already control it) Germany just grants the claim. End of problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The real risk appears to be that the USSR might DOW Rumania. Now that seems to be permitted by the rules. Therefore, Germany should align Rumania to prevent its occurrence.

quote:

19.6.2 Rumania
The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia
If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

19.6.2 Rumania
The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia
If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:

 
You had your chance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

"If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:" what follows this statement is what you can do now.

You can't just "claim Bessarabia" now youve already attempted that.

You now have to escalate the situation.


In poker terms: raise or fold.

quote:

19.6.2 Claims on Rumania

The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia
If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:
• it cannot declare war on Rumania;
• Rumania can only align with Germany if Germany has declared war either on Yugoslavia or the USSR (not if the USSR has declared war on Germany), or if Germany controls Belgrade;
• Bulgaria can only align with Germany if Germany controls Belgrade or is at war with Greece; and
• Hungary can only align with Germany after Germany has declared war on Yugoslavia or the USSR.

The USSR claims Bessarabia
During any Allied declaration of war step (after the first) while Rumania is neutral, the USSR can claim Bessarabia.
The German player (acting as Rumania) must either allow the claim or deny it.

Rumania allows the claim
If Rumania allows the claim, it stays neutral and Bessarabia becomes part of the USSR for all purposes until the USSR controls no hex in Bessarabia. At that point, Bessarabia again becomes part of Rumania. The USSR can not declare war on Rumania until the USSR is at war with Germany.

Allowing the claim immediately reduces the resources the USSR supplies to Germany by 1 (see 5.1).

In the next Axis declaration of war step, Hungary and Bulgaria make demands on Rumania for Transylvania and South Dobruja respectively. Germany, as mediator, must either allow both claims or deny both.

If Germany allows their claims:
• Transylvania becomes part of Hungary for all purposes. Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war step.
• South Dobruja becomes part of Bulgaria for all purposes. Germany can declare Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war step.
• Germany can declare Rumania aligned with Germany during any Axis declaration of war step if Germany has declared war on the USSR (not if the USSR has declared war on Germany), is at war with Yugoslavia, or controls Belgrade.

If Germany denies their claims:
• Hungary stops supplying its resource to Germany until Hungary aligns with Germany. Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any Axis declaration of war step after Germany has declared war on the USSR (not if the USSR declares war on Germany). No more than 1 Hungarian unit can ever be outside of Hungary;
• Bulgaria can never align with Germany but the USSR can declare it aligned with the USSR during any later Allied declaration of war step;
• Rumania becomes aligned with Germany as a full Axis ally during the next Axis declaration of war step. It need no longer keep half of its units inside Rumania - they can all leave.

Rumania denies the claim
If Rumania denies the USSR’s claim, the USSR must immediately declare war on Rumania.

Germany can enforce a peace between Rumania and the USSR during any peace step if:
• no hex of Rumania, outside of Bessarabia, is Soviet controlled; and
• Germany and the USSR are not at war.

If Rumania and the USSR come to peace:
• Rumania again becomes a neutral minor country;
• the USSR keeps control of Bessarabia provided there is a Soviet land unit anywhere in Bessarabia; and
• Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.

If the USSR conquers Rumania:
• Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war step; and
• Bulgaria can never align with Germany but the USSR can declare it aligned with the USSR during any later Allied declaration of war step.

While Rumania and the USSR are at war:
• Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any Axis declaration of war step; and
• Bulgaria can not align with either Germany or the USSR.

quote:

19.6.2 Claims on Rumania

The USSR claims Bessarabia
During any Allied declaration of war step (after the first) while Rumania is neutral, the USSR can claim Bessarabia.
The German player (acting as Rumania) must either allow the claim or deny it.

Rumania denies the claim
If Rumania denies the USSR’s claim, the USSR must immediately declare war on Rumania.

Germany can enforce a peace between Rumania and the USSR during any peace step if:
• no hex of Rumania, outside of Bessarabia, is Soviet controlled; and
• Germany and the USSR are not at war.

If Rumania and the USSR come to peace:
• Rumania again becomes a neutral minor country;
• the USSR keeps control of Bessarabia provided there is a Soviet land unit anywhere in Bessarabia; and
• Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Follow the steps.

Hungary stops supplying its resource to Germany until Hungary aligns with Germany. Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any Axis declaration of war step after Germany has declared war on the USSR (not if the USSR declares war on Germany). No more than 1 Hungarian unit can ever be outside of Hungary.

Bulgaria can never align with Germany but the USSR can declare it aligned with the USSR during any later Allied declaration of war step.

Rumania becomes aligned with Germany as a full Axis ally during the next Axis declaration of war step. It need no longer keep half of its units inside Rumania - they can all leave.



You had your choice and now Rumania is a full Axis ally (I don’t see a option here do you?) even though they are at peace with the USSR.

If you want to DoW Rumania you have to DoW Germany.


Raise or fold?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Oops got ahead of myself.

The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia (It has)
Rumania has denied the claim
Rumania and the USSR have come to peace
Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.


Want to try again?

31. USSR declares war on other minor (Ge/It) (-9).

Did you do this the first time?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia (It has)
Rumania has denied the claim
Rumania and the USSR have come to peace
Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.


Want to try again?

31. USSR declares war on other minor (Ge/It) (-9).

Did you do this the first time?

quote:

Rumania denies the claim

If Rumania denies the USSR’s claim, the USSR must immediately declare war on Rumania.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia (It has)
Rumania has denied the claim
Rumania and the USSR have come to peace
Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.


Want to try again?

31. USSR declares war on other minor (Ge/It) (-9).

Did you do this the first time?

I'm Just doing as you requested keeping it brief with as few quotes a possiable.

quote:

Rumania denies the claim

If Rumania denies the USSR’s claim, the USSR must immediately declare war on Rumania.

Each time the USSR has to DoW the neutral minor country Rumania it invokes:


US entrty action 31. USSR declares war on other minor or Vichy France (Ge/It) (-9).

Footnote 5: Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.



How many US entry chits are left?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Each time the USSR has to DoW the neutral minor country Rumania it invokes:

US entrty action 31. USSR declares war on other minor or Vichy France (Ge/It) (-9).

Footnote 5: Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.

How many US entry chits are left?

quote:

AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUP WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary © 2009, Australian Design Group

9.2: All major powers on this side announce which major powers on the other side they are declaring war on this impulse. They then all announce which neutral minor countries they are declaring war on this impulse.

Each declaration of war on a major power or neutral minor country could trigger a US entry effect (see 13.3.3), which are rolled for after all declarations of war.

quote:

9.2 How to declare war
Each declaration of war on a major power or neutral minor country could trigger a US entry effect (see 13.3.3), which are rolled for after all declarations of war. There is no US entry roll if you declare war on a major power that has units in your major power’s home country (e.g. France could declare war on Italy without a US entry roll if Italian units were in German controlled hexes in Metropolitan France).

China may not declare war.

quote:

10. Japan occupies Chinese city: - each time a Japanese controlled land unit occupies (or reoccupies) a Chinese controlled city in China, there is the possibility of an outrage like the rape of Nanking occurring, an atrocity that the USA public finds out about. You do not roll for cities controlled by the Japanese as a result of a Chinese surrender.

quote:

You can then execute a search and seizure if you want to. If you do, those resources (or build points) are lost. Each search and seizure you execute is a US entry action (see 13.3.3) if it is conducted against a major power not at war with the USA.

quote:

US entrty action 31. USSR declares war on other minor or Vichy France (Ge/It) (-9).

Footnote 5: Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.

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Original: Is this your example?

Example: Japan occupies Indo-China. This has a US entry cost of 12. So, you add 1 marker from the common marker pool to the Japan entry pool. Roll a die and compare it to the remaining 2 points. If you roll a 1 or 2, you put a further marker into the Japan entry pool.

You can only pick markers for each action once, regardless of the number of times that the action occurs, unless the chart notes otherwise.

quote:

1. Japan occupies Indo-China (Ja)

Footnote 2: May only be chosen after Vichy government installed.

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Footnote 1: Each action is only rolled once per game unless otherwise specified.

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5 Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.

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20. Axis declares war on:
--Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country (12)
--Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland (8)
--Other minor (3)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
In this case, each of the lower three entries has footnote 5.

Is that there to clarify that it is "once per" minor country in this row?
This would be so that people don't think: okay, I've taken the hit for a DOW on Spain, so now I can DOW Turkey without any repercussions.

Or does it mean "once" per game for each major power making a DOW on any of these minors?
This would clarify that Germany only rolls once per game for a DOW on Spain, but if Spain becomes neutral again and then Italy makes a DOW . . . then Italy also has to roll for US Entry.

It's entirely possible that I'm missiing something somewhere in here.
-----
Edit: I think I know how I'd play it with my own "house rules", but I guess my point is that RAW needs some lessons in semantics and clarity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I agree with Paul. You roll once per game.

Axis captures Gibraltar: you roll. CW recaptures Gib and than Axis recapture Gibraltar: no roll.
USSR DOW's Rumania: you roll. Germany declares peace and the USSR than DOW Rumania again: no roll.

However: carefully rereading of this rules section gives me the impression that other interpretations of this rule can be defended. So, RAW should indeed be clarified to get this clear.

I'm getting an idea why this game takes so long to code...