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Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ?

 
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Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 2:17:44 AM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		Gees, some people clearly don't get out much....Try stepping out your front door and take a deep breath before you get worked up over the word "nip"

< Message edited by sdhundt -- 11/3/2011 6:59:22 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 2:28:49 AM   
Treetop64


Posts: 926
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: 519 Redwood City - BASE (Hex 218, 70)
Status: offline 		A)  Not condoning the Japanese conduct during WWII, but as of late these History Channel/Military Channel shows tend to be a bit sensationalist and inflammatory when it comes to stories like these. You're better off reading credible books on the subject - and even then, use critical thinking.

B)  The enemy bombed their homeland and directly threatened the life of their Emperor (***gasp!***), and they were naturally cheesed off by that...

C) To the Japanese, the Doolittle raiders were those who allowed themselves to be captured alive by the enemy. The Japanese mindset of the time - and for many centuries prior - was that it was extremely shameful to allow yourself to be captured alive by your enemy, and they looked contemptibly on those who did, often with the fatal results described on the show you watched. Previously, this view was held and practiced almost exclusively among the Samurai, but was instilled into all members of the Imperial military for WWII.

< Message edited by Treetop64 -- 11/3/2011 2:51:06 AM >

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Post #: 2
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 3:21:38 AM   
sandman455


Posts: 209
Joined: 7/5/2011
From: 20 yrs ago - SDO -> med down, w/BC glasses on
Status: offline 		Troll (Internet) Defined: Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response, or otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.   (Wikipedia)


Examples (other than what was provided by the OP):

"WTF is up with Dresden. The city had almost no military significance and yet they intentionally burned alive 25000 civilians, and for what?"

"Of course you will have those who revel in the toil of humanity to find understanding and purpose - Who try to rise above some imaginary level of self assigned civility as if it was going to make us something more than we are. Sorry, but we are no different than anything else that inhabits this 'blue dot.' We are nothing - a transient carbon based life form and that's all we will ever be. So go get another cup of coffee or a cold one and try to find happiness while you can."


Feeding the Trolls Defined:
See this post



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AOCS 1985, VT10 1985-86, VT86 1986, VS41 1986-87
VS32 1987-90 (NSO/NWTO, deployed w/CV-66, CVN-71)
VS27 1990-91 (NATOPS/Safety)
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Post #: 3
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 3:51:48 AM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		HUH, I don't get what Sadman455's point was ? I was confused about why the Japs. executed the raiders but I'm even more confused about Sadman's post....Is Sadman calling himself a "troll" ? Who is this Sadman ? Why is he ranting about "troll" ?

(in reply to sandman455)
Post #: 4
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 4:02:10 AM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 394
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline 		'Nip' is a derogatory racist slur. If you have any doubt, walk up to any Japanese person and call them that. If you hesitate, it is because you know it is a racist slur. Do we even need to talk about 'yellow bastards'? This is an international forum with more than one member from Japan. It is appropriate to express dismay at war crimes, and discuss them, but grow up and leave the racist BS at the door please.

< Message edited by darbymcd -- 11/3/2011 4:03:35 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 4:47:12 AM   
vettim89


Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

'Nip' is a derogatory racist slur. If you have any doubt, walk up to any Japanese person and call them that. If you hesitate, it is because you know it is a racist slur. Do we even need to talk about 'yellow bastards'? This is an international forum with more than one member from Japan. It is appropriate to express dismay at war crimes, and discuss them, but grow up and leave the racist BS at the door please.


This is about how I would have put it. It was the tone of you OP in how you referred to the Japanese. As to the why, Treetop nailed it. To Western sensibilities, the executions seemed barbaric but to the Japanese, they seemed normal. I their tradition, a man who is able bodied and surrenders has dishonored himself and his family. As such, he is entitled to no level of fair treatment. Prior to and during WWII, Japan was largely an agrarian society. Its soldiers were extensively uneducated farmboys. They new nothing of Western thinking, the Geneva Convention, nor any other treaties. They were imbued with the concept that they were the heirs to the Bushido Code and thus right in their actions.

Keep in mind Japanese snipers killed Japanese civilians who attempted to surrended on Saipan in 1944. My point being that this was so deeply instilled in them that they would bring down their own countrymen rather than see them shame themselves, their families, and Japan

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Post #: 6
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 4:48:41 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I think the original question was relevant, but some of the language used in it was not appropriate for this forum, which may be where the post about trolling came from.

The term "Nip" for Japanese ranks right up there with the other "N-word" that they won't use on Television in the US, even when it's part of a news story.  Most Japanese consider it a very bad racial slur.  I grew up in a heavily Asian neighborhood in Los Angeles (with a lot of Japanese-Americans, several of my neighbors were interned during the war) and everyone seemed to know that instinctively from a very early age.

Treetop64 did a pretty good job of actually answering the question.  Japan embraced the Code of Bushido which was a warping of the old samurai code.  One element of it was that it was very dishonorable to be captured.  The thought was that if you were captured, you were already dead.  They applied that same thinking to the Allies they captured.

For Japanese soldiers captured in the war, all were given a choice where to go after the war and most chose somewhere other than Japan.  The few that went back to Japan emigrated somewhere else soon after because the reception they got upon returning home was extremely cold.

Most Allied POWs were put to work until they died.  The idea being you might as well get some use out of the dead before they actually stop moving.  If a few managed to survive, that was just the way things shook out.  Under that ideal, just shooting a few wasn't out of line.

This attitude wasn't unique during the war.  Russian and German POWs were frequently abused in similar ways.  I have read accounts of American POWs captured by Japan and Germans captured by the Russians, the stories have a lot of similarities.

Bill


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(in reply to darbycmcd)
Post #: 7
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 5:25:12 AM   
noguaranteeofsanity


Posts: 257
Joined: 11/24/2009
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		While the Japanese very poor treatment of prisoners obviously played a part, I suspect they were executed as a direct result of bombing Tokyo, in an act of revenge or in an attempt to save face, as they were given a trial, although the charges were never explained. This is somewhat different to other Allied POWs, who were never tried or brought before a court to answer charges.  The only other allied prisoners given trials and then executed, were those labelled as spies, such as members of the Z Special Unit that were captured during Operation Rimau.

Also the fact the Japanese launched a campaign in China to try to capture the airmen, killing around 25,000 Chinese, in order to scare the population into turning them over, shows just how badly the Japanese wanted to capture and presumably make an example of these men.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 8
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 6:11:52 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Did the japanese need a reason?

Look at their trreatment of both Military and Civilian prisoners/detainees.

I hope you wouldnt treat your dog like that.

I believe its correct, that not 1 Australian aircrew that was shot down over Timor/DEI survived the war.

At the time, many japanese thought that behaving like a medieval tortuous despot was "honourable".

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Post #: 9
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 8:57:27 AM   
henhute6

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Tehran
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

I could never find the answer as to why the Damn Nip. bastard Japs. had to execute the very brave Americans.

How can they be brave if they surrendered? Terror bombers must be shot to death!

(in reply to sdhundt)
Post #: 10
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 9:06:03 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman455

Troll (Internet) Defined: Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response, or otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.   (Wikipedia)


Examples (other than what was provided by the OP):

"WTF is up with Dresden. The city had almost no military significance and yet they intentionally burned alive 25000 civilians, and for what?"

"Of course you will have those who revel in the toil of humanity to find understanding and purpose - Who try to rise above some imaginary level of self assigned civility as if it was going to make us something more than we are. Sorry, but we are no different than anything else that inhabits this 'blue dot.' We are nothing - a transient carbon based life form and that's all we will ever be. So go get another cup of coffee or a cold one and try to find happiness while you can."


Feeding the Trolls Defined:
See this post





LOL, exactly. Hit and kill on first glance.

_____________________________


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Post #: 11
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 9:11:01 AM   
noguaranteeofsanity


Posts: 257
Joined: 11/24/2009
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Did the japanese need a reason?

Look at their trreatment of both Military and Civilian prisoners/detainees.

I hope you wouldnt treat your dog like that.

I believe its correct, that not 1 Australian aircrew that was shot down over Timor/DEI survived the war.

At the time, many japanese thought that behaving like a medieval tortuous despot was "honourable".



I was't defending the Japanese, but only pointing out the facts.  No they didn't need a reason and most POWs or detainees were treated brutally and inhumanely without any reason at all, but as I said these particular airmen were brought before a court, without even knowing the charges, which ordered their execution, after a military campaign to attempt to capture them; all of which indicates the Japanese certainly wanted to single these particular airmen out as an example and most likely, this was ordered from higher up the chain of command, in order for these events to occur.

In my mind this certainly doesn't make the Japanese seem any more honourable or excuse their behaviour, in fact it is probably evidence of a premeditated war crime, but it is different from the seemingly random acts of senseless violence and brutality, which were committed by Japanese soldiers against civillans and POWs without reason.


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Post #: 12
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 9:14:20 AM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Great, this is a thread we really needed. Again.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 13
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 11:00:02 AM   
steamboateng


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/21/2010
From: somewhere in Massachusetts
Status: offline 		There was earth, from wich man drew life, in his hunt and in his small farm. He gave nurture to those dependent upon him as best he could.
There was rain, a lack of sun, but which gave man the ability to nurture the animals and plants which he grew and with which gave nurture.
There was sun, which nutured all.
And from all these gifts, some saw only one element in the mix.
MUD!
I think you know the rest of the story!

_____________________________


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Post #: 14
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 11:28:23 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		I disagree.

_____________________________


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Post #: 15
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 11:33:32 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Oh, sorry, misread. I didn´t see you wrote MUD. MUD, yes. I agree.

_____________________________


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Post #: 16
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 12:35:56 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I think the original question was relevant, but some of the language used in it was not appropriate for this forum, which may be where the post about trolling came from.

The term "Nip" for Japanese ranks right up there with the other "N-word" that they won't use on Television in the US, even when it's part of a news story.  Most Japanese consider it a very bad racial slur.  I grew up in a heavily Asian neighborhood in Los Angeles (with a lot of Japanese-Americans, several of my neighbors were interned during the war) and everyone seemed to know that instinctively from a very early age.

Treetop64 did a pretty good job of actually answering the question.  Japan embraced the Code of Bushido which was a warping of the old samurai code.  One element of it was that it was very dishonorable to be captured.  The thought was that if you were captured, you were already dead.  They applied that same thinking to the Allies they captured.

For Japanese soldiers captured in the war, all were given a choice where to go after the war and most chose somewhere other than Japan.  The few that went back to Japan emigrated somewhere else soon after because the reception they got upon returning home was extremely cold.

Most Allied POWs were put to work until they died.  The idea being you might as well get some use out of the dead before they actually stop moving.  If a few managed to survive, that was just the way things shook out.  Under that ideal, just shooting a few wasn't out of line.

This attitude wasn't unique during the war.  Russian and German POWs were frequently abused in similar ways.  I have read accounts of American POWs captured by Japan and Germans captured by the Russians, the stories have a lot of similarities.

Bill



This.

I don't personally use words "Nip"=Nippon or "Jap"=Japanese.

But since Japan has never ofifcially (unlike Germany) acknowleged that they did something wrong, I found less fault about calling them with names....

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 11/3/2011 12:41:18 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 1:05:26 PM   
Banzan

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 3/13/2010
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline 		Well, it was far more easy for germany to accept the guilt. Even being small, there was some opposition in civil and the military service.

If i understood it correct, in the japanese tradition the emperors line comes from the gods. If your entire society belives in that, it could cause unbelievable problems to state he was wrong. When ending the war, the allies accepted this more or less.
For example, the generals in charge of the japanese forces wich did the Naniking massacre were put on trial after the war. While the leading genral was sentenced to death by hanging (not sure about the others), prince Asaka, who order or at least accepted the war crimes was granted immunity because of his status as a member of the imperial family.

< Message edited by Banzan -- 11/3/2011 1:06:20 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 1:22:00 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		*double post*

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 11/3/2011 1:38:09 PM >

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


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Post #: 19
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 1:29:28 PM   
drw61


Posts: 894
Joined: 6/30/2004
From: South Carolina
Status: offline 		If you want a look at the Japanese mindset read "Japan At War an Oral History" by Haruko Taya Cook ANd Theodore F. Cook.  Some of the stories are just to inhumane to believe......



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Post #: 20
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 1:31:49 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		If every thread started by an - admittedly a bit clumsy - troll was instalocked, where could we bored ones
amuse ourselves?

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Post #: 21
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 1:33:13 PM   
henhute6

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Tehran
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

But since Japan has never ofifcially (unlike Germany) acknowleged that they did something wrong, I found less fault about calling them with names....


I don't remember what countries have apologized. Have Great Britain, France, Dutch, or USA apologized their actions? Japan was not the first imperialistic country in the area. It was a late comer to the party.

I guess the original writer was some yankee bastard and that's why he uses such a language. I can understand that he sees his own country men as a "good guys", but that looks little bit redicilous to others.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 22
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 1:40:47 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: henhute6
I don't remember what countries have apologized. Have Great Britain, France, Dutch, or USA apologized their actions? Japan was not the first imperialistic country in the area. It was a late comer to the party.

I guess the original writer was some yankee bastard and that's why he uses such a language. I can understand that he sees his own country men as a "good guys", but that looks little bit redicilous to others.


May I introduce to you the little troll assistent? Also known as parasite-troll?
If we continue for a bit the whole family might show guys.

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Post #: 23
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 1:44:11 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: henhute6


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

But since Japan has never ofifcially (unlike Germany) acknowleged that they did something wrong, I found less fault about calling them with names....


I don't remember what countries have apologized. Have Great Britain, France, Dutch, or USA apologized their actions? Japan was not the first imperialistic country in the area. It was a late comer to the party.

I guess the original writer was some yankee bastard and that's why he uses such a language. I can understand that he sees his own country men as a "good guys", but that looks little bit redicilous to others.


Please remove this thread. This dicusssion is not AE-stuff.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


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Post #: 24
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 2:05:20 PM   
henhute6

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Tehran
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Please remove this thread. This dicusssion is not AE-stuff.


No, this should be a sticky so that poor little ****ers like the original writer, don't need to start a thread like this. Maybe this forum needs some rules. Words like jap makes a few month ban. That should be educating enough.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 25
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 2:08:02 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

Popcorn, rum punch, and a troll fueled flame war.  It's gonna be a good day. 


_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 26
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 2:13:43 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Although this discussion is a very valid discussion, the whole tone was tainted by the first post and a number there after. Which is sad, as it is important. Culture is a very difficult aspect of humanity to understand. The reason is simple, we all filter our information input through our own cultural bias. Thus many Westerners can not understand Sharia Law and and its "draconian" penalties. An interesting point about the Japanese culture at the time was the fact of how they treated their OWN Japanese soldiers who surrendered and were "liberated" by the Japanese at a later point. The surrendering troops were treated as lepers and many took their own lives rather than live with the "shame". So some actions that an alternative culture are indeed difficult to understand... and there are very valid reasons for that misunderstanding. What is not appropriate is to make culturally derogatory statements based upon that misunderstanding.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 27
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 2:30:37 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: henhute6

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Please remove this thread. This dicusssion is not AE-stuff.


No, this should be a sticky so that poor little ****ers like the original writer, don't need to start a thread like this. Maybe this forum needs some rules. Words like jap makes a few month ban. That should be educating enough.



This is apparently material for THE THREAD in War Room!!!!

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to henhute6)
Post #: 28
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 2:30:57 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		dr.hal, no offense, but independent of whether such a topic is started by an idiot troll
or a historically challenged person, it will end in trash talk.

Which doesn´t mean that this usually is not funny...

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 11/3/2011 2:34:54 PM >

_____________________________


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Post #: 29
RE: Doolittle Raiders executed, Why ? - 11/3/2011 2:32:24 PM   
sandman455


Posts: 209
Joined: 7/5/2011
From: 20 yrs ago - SDO -> med down, w/BC glasses on
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


Please remove this thread. This dicusssion is not AE-stuff.



WHOAaa! Hold up there Sardaukar. I apologize for getting off topic with this here post, but I gots to know. . .

If you remove this thread will my post count go down??? You know some of us are trying hard to get the Matrix Trooper title.

Heck, with sarcastic grunt-whine being my native language - I work damn hard on each of my posts.

_____________________________

Gary S (USN 1320, 1985-1993)
AOCS 1985, VT10 1985-86, VT86 1986, VS41 1986-87
VS32 1987-90 (NSO/NWTO, deployed w/CV-66, CVN-71)
VS27 1990-91 (NATOPS/Safety)
SFWSLANT 1991-93 (AGM-84 All platforms, S-3 A/B systems)

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 30
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