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41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/22/2011 4:30:24 PM

BletchleyGeek

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Hi everyone,

having my house haunted by thousands of ghosts of virtual Red Army soldiers, I've found time today to put forward a modified setup (and some TOE tweaks here and there) for the Kiev Military District forces.

Current version is 0.3:

The scenario file is available here
The scenario notes (detailing the changes) here.

Would be cool that some experienced Axis player tried the Lvov Opening on this one (Klydon?). To test this it's only needed to play out the first Axis turn (not even the entirety of the front).

I hope people finds it interesting!

EDIT: Updated to 0.3

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 10/22/2011 8:55:53 PM >

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/22/2011 4:41:31 PM

BletchleyGeek

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Scenario file updated: I left the scenario with the Soviet Union going first

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/22/2011 11:31:47 PM

Richard III

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Thank You, I hope more then me download this and give it a spin.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/23/2011 6:53:21 PM

Klydon

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Just responding from the other thread at B-G's request.

I will see about looking at it a bit further in depth, but I have a lot on my plate right now with RL and other things going on. My WITE game time has dwindled down a lot. If I get some unexpected time, I will see what I can do and there are some others who can give it a shot as well for different opinions. While the concept of the Lvov pocket is a general thing, how it occurs has a lot of varients that go along with it in terms of the amount of force brought in from AGC.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/24/2011 10:48:19 AM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I will see about looking at it a bit further in depth, but I have a lot on my plate right now with RL and other things going on. My WITE game time has dwindled down a lot. If I get some unexpected time, I will see what I can do and there are some others who can give it a shot as well for different opinions. While the concept of the Lvov pocket is a general thing, how it occurs has a lot of varients that go along with it in terms of the amount of force brought in from AGC.

Cool. One source I want to check is the new book by David Stahel "Kiev 1941", which is due to be released next month (or so says Amazon). There I expect to find a coherent narrative of the whole AGS campaign during summer and autumn 1941.

Regarding the Lvov - Stanislav sector. There's a huge gap in Kamenir's account of the early stages of Barbarossa. He really focuses on the battles around the Brody - Lutsk area, but says very little about what was happening to the southwest. I've come to realize that this might be because Kamenir is using as his source STAVKA operational reports. The problem with this is that 8th Mechanized Corps, a really powerful formation deployed to the north and west of Lvov was commanded by A. Vlasov, the Soviet Great Patriotic War Benedict Arnold. So the deeds of this important Soviet unit seem to have been completely obliterated from Soviet records.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/26/2011 9:05:31 PM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I will see about looking at it a bit further in depth, but I have a lot on my plate right now with RL and other things going on. My WITE game time has dwindled down a lot. If I get some unexpected time, I will see what I can do and there are some others who can give it a shot as well for different opinions. While the concept of the Lvov pocket is a general thing, how it occurs has a lot of varients that go along with it in terms of the amount of force brought in from AGC.

Cool. One source I want to check is the new book by David Stahel "Kiev 1941", which is due to be released next month (or so says Amazon). There I expect to find a coherent narrative of the whole AGS campaign during summer and autumn 1941.

Regarding the Lvov - Stanislav sector. There's a huge gap in Kamenir's account of the early stages of Barbarossa. He really focuses on the battles around the Brody - Lutsk area, but says very little about what was happening to the southwest. I've come to realize that this might be because Kamenir is using as his source STAVKA operational reports. The problem with this is that 8th Mechanized Corps, a really powerful formation deployed to the north and west of Lvov was commanded by A. Vlasov, the Soviet Great Patriotic War Benedict Arnold. So the deeds of this important Soviet unit seem to have been completely obliterated from Soviet records.

I found 'The Bloody Triangle: The Defeat of Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941 by Victor Kamenir' very informative, although it only covers the first week, or so, it does so in great detail, including the fortunes of the 8th Mech.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/26/2011 9:10:26 PM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
I found 'The Bloody Triangle: The Defeat of Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941 by Victor Kamenir' very informative, although it only covers the first week, or so, it does so in great detail, including the fortunes of the 8th Mech.

I must admit I focused on the first half of the book. Can you remember - from the top of your head - where was Kamenir getting the account of 8th Mech Corps? On the situation maps 8th Mech Corps for the first four days - Turn 1 in WitE - I couldn't find it.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/26/2011 9:59:48 PM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
I found 'The Bloody Triangle: The Defeat of Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941 by Victor Kamenir' very informative, although it only covers the first week, or so, it does so in great detail, including the fortunes of the 8th Mech.

I must admit I focused on the first half of the book. Can you remember - from the top of your head - where was Kamenir getting the account of 8th Mech Corps? On the situation maps 8th Mech Corps for the first four days - Turn 1 in WitE - I couldn't find it.

I am away from home, in New Zealand, how far can you go. I will be back in the UK on 5th Nov and will able to help then, if required.

We are all at the mercy of our sources, but this book seemed very convincing, with huge amount of detail on those first days of combat on the Southwest Front. A lot of the information seemed to be personal recounting of the events, with some extracts from reports written just after the early actions (a sort of Red Army inquest).

Unfortunately I cannot confirm any of that until next month, but I felt that the book was an incredible testament to the conditions the Red Army officers and men endured, whilst still being able to impose a check on the Germans, however short lived.

Highly recommended reading for an understanding of those first battles.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/26/2011 10:41:18 PM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
I am away from home, in New Zealand, how far can you go. I will be back in the UK on 5th Nov and will able to help then, if required.

That's about the fartest you can go from Spain without an spaceship

Welcome aboard!

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/27/2011 4:13:35 AM

RedBunny

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I'm about half way through the book myself. First mention of the 8 Mech Corp is in Chapter 4, page 41. There the author discusses the 8th's TOE and lists "Sbornik, vol. 33" as the source. Checking the bibliography I don't see anything authored by a 'Sbornik' but then I wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing it -- but then the editing in the book is horrible so I'd be even more surprised if it simply isn't missing. In the 'e-books' section (http://www.militera.lib.ru) there is the entry "Collection of Combat Documents of Great Patriotic War, Volume 33". There's no author but the 'Volume 33' implies this is the one.

Anyway, the next mention I saw of the 8th cites a Russian language source "Difficult Times" by Popel who I believe was the Corps' commisar.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/27/2011 10:27:35 AM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedBunny

I'm about half way through the book myself. First mention of the 8 Mech Corp is in Chapter 4, page 41. There the author discusses the 8th's TOE and lists "Sbornik, vol. 33" as the source. Checking the bibliography I don't see anything authored by a 'Sbornik' but then I wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing it -- but then the editing in the book is horrible so I'd be even more surprised if it simply isn't missing. In the 'e-books' section (http://www.militera.lib.ru) there is the entry "Collection of Combat Documents of Great Patriotic War, Volume 33". There's no author but the 'Volume 33' implies this is the one.

Anyway, the next mention I saw of the 8th cites a Russian language source "Difficult Times" by Popel who I believe was the Corps' commisar.

I think "sbornik" could be translated as "journal", "magazine" or "gazetteer". So your find on militera.lib.ru seems to be right on spot.

I've very limited time at the moment, and if you could get a rough timeline of 8th Mech actions and positions described on the book would be GREATLY appreciated.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/27/2011 12:00:26 PM

T-28A

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
The problem with this is that 8th Mechanized Corps, a really powerful formation deployed to the north and west of Lvov was commanded by A. Vlasov, the Soviet Great Patriotic War Benedict Arnold. So the deeds of this important Soviet unit seem to have been completely obliterated from Soviet records.

Vlasov commanded 4th Mech Corps, not 8th, and there are plenty of details on both in many sources.
"Sbornik vol.33" is the collection of war-time documents assembled and issued in various thematic issues ("sbornik" means assembly of documents), #33 is devoted to the actions of tank troops in summer-autumn 1941 and could be read online from here
http://tashv.nm.ru/SbornikBoevyhDokumentov/Issue33/Issue33.html

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/27/2011 12:42:37 PM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: T-28A

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
The problem with this is that 8th Mechanized Corps, a really powerful formation deployed to the north and west of Lvov was commanded by A. Vlasov, the Soviet Great Patriotic War Benedict Arnold. So the deeds of this important Soviet unit seem to have been completely obliterated from Soviet records.

Vlasov commanded 4th Mech Corps, not 8th, and there are plenty of details on both in many sources.
"Sbornik vol.33" is the collection of war-time documents assembled and issued in various thematic issues ("sbornik" means assembly of documents), #33 is devoted to the actions of tank troops in summer-autumn 1941 and could be read online from here
http://tashv.nm.ru/SbornikBoevyhDokumentov/Issue33/Issue33.html

I stand corrected about the Vlasov hypothesis, then. Thank you for the correction, T-28

Since I take you can read Russian, would you like to help us to get a clear picture of 8th Mech Corps operations in the timeframe of 22 - 26 June?

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/27/2011 1:26:14 PM

T-28A

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Yep, sure. The 8th Mech was moving all the time. The situation was changing rapidly, and so were the decisions by SWF and 6th Army (Soviet) commands. During 22-26 the 8th Mech was moving from one area to another, preparing to launch attacks here and there, but never launching any, in fact. First, on June 22nd it (according to pre-war plans) left its garrisons and moved west, concentrating in Sambor, as 26th Army's reserve. At night 22-23 it started moving to the region near Lvov, closer to the direction of the main German thrust, as SWF command grasped the initial impression of it by the end of day, and ordered the Corps to subordinate to 6th Army. By mid-day 23rd the corps partially concentrated there, and partially was yet on the move, when the 6th Army commander ordered it to move now west, into the Lvov bulge, and accompany 4th Mech in repelling German attacks within Army's boundaries. The Corps moved there, to the west and arrived by midnight 23/24. Early morning 24th the Corps received the order to move back, east of Lvov again, and concentrate in Brody area and accompany 15th Mech there. This time the road was much harder, with a lot of roadblocks caused by retreating civilians, columns of 32nd Tank Division (of 4th Mech) moving the same narrow roads, Ukrainian nationalists uprising in Lvov itself, and so on, so that the 8th Mech finished assembling in Brody area only by the end of next day, June 25th. By the time it was finally engaged in combat on June 26th the corps moved about 500 km and lost up to 50% of its vehicles.
In my South-West 41 scenarios (many years ago, in a galaxy far away), it was a challenge for designer to choose among the ahistorical course of actions, when 8th Mech is available to Soviet side early on and moves straight to the Brody-Dubno-Lutsk triangle from the start, or historical variant, when the corps artificially delayed to represent its long journey.

< Message edited by T-28A -- 10/27/2011 1:29:24 PM >

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/27/2011 1:39:28 PM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: T-28A

Yep, sure. The 8th Mech was moving all the time. The situation was changing rapidly, and so were the decisions by SWF and 6th Army (Soviet) commands. During 22-26 the 8th Mech was moving from one area to another, preparing to launch attacks here and there, but never launching any, in fact. First, on June 22nd it (according to pre-war plans) left its garrisons and moved west, concentrating in Sambor, as 26th Army's reserve. At night 22-23 it started moving to the region near Lvov, closer to the direction of the main German thrust, as SWF command grasped the initial impression of it by the end of day, and ordered the Corps to subordinate to 6th Army. By mid-day 23rd the corps partially concentrated there, and partially was yet on the move, when the 6th Army commander ordered it to move now west, into the Lvov bulge, and accompany 4th Mech in repelling German attacks within Army's boundaries. The Corps moved there, to the west and arrived by midnight 23/24. Early morning 24th the Corps received the order to move back, east of Lvov again, and concentrate in Brody area and accompany 15th Mech there. This time the road was much harder, with a lot of roadblocks caused by retreating civilians, columns of 32nd Tank Division (of 4th Mech) moving the same narrow roads, Ukrainian nationalists uprising in Lvov itself, and so on, so that the 8th Mech finished assembling in Brody area only by the end of next day, June 25th. By the time it was finally engaged in combat on June 26th the corps moved about 500 km and lost up to 50% of its vehicles.

Wow!

quote:

ORIGINAL: T-28A
In my South-West 41 scenarios (many years ago, in a galaxy far away), it was a challenge for designer to choose among the ahistorical course of actions, when 8th Mech is available to Soviet side early on and moves straight to the Brody-Dubno-Lutsk triangle from the start, or historical variant, when the corps artificially delayed to represent its long journey.

Hmmm, have you checked the scenario? I'd certainly appreciate the opinion of a more experienced designer. Criticism is welcomed :)

It's funny but I actually placed 8th Mech Corps west and north of Lvov (Mech Corps in the scenario are deployed in the positions I've gathered they were within 24-36 hours of Barbarossa start). Seems I got it about right, though it would be good to revise the vehicle and tank strength levels.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/27/2011 1:40:17 PM

BletchleyGeek

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By the way, South-West 41 was a TOAW scenario?

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/27/2011 2:03:09 PM

T-28A

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Hmmm, have you checked the scenario? I'd certainly appreciate the opinion of a more experienced designer. Criticism is welcomed :)

Sure, with pleasure

quote:

By the way, South-West 41 was a TOAW scenario?

Yep, speaking of SW, there was one regimental level single day 5 km representing whole Ukraine+Moldavia+Crimea campaign in June-September, and another was a battalion level 6 hours 2.5 km for first 10 days of AG Sued vs SWF (with Lvov and Lutsk-Brody-Dubno being the center of actions).
Both were huge and designed for a team play mostly, so I never actively submitted them.

< Message edited by T-28A -- 10/27/2011 2:04:18 PM >

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/27/2011 2:06:41 PM

T-28A

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Ah, here's one of earlier versions of first one
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/display_scenario.php?menu=off&Id=660

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/27/2011 5:52:01 PM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: T-28A
Ah, here's one of earlier versions of first one
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/display_scenario.php?menu=off&Id=660

How long did take supply calculations with that one?

Very nice scale and the map, from the looks of the thumbnail, is awesome.

Does it work in TOAW 3.4?

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/28/2011 12:09:03 AM

T-28A

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
How long did take supply calculations with that one?

Not much at all. If memory serves well, it took merely 2-3 minutes back then, and today it should be just a couple of seconds with all those neat optimizations Ralph brought in.
And yes, it should load with new TOAW just well, so you could freely check some 22.06-specific unit placements or OoB details there, if needed.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/28/2011 2:43:26 PM

Q-Ball

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I like this effort, I would like to see more "what if" kind of mods and test them.

I personally think that the overall German tempo is a bit high, but I don't have a big problem myself with the Lvov pocket, even playing as Russian.

The big problems for the Germans are all tank units on Reserve turn 1 (lots of reserve commits), and the fact that most of the Infantry is frozen on Turn 1.

I did a H2H against myself, with FOW off, to test it.

I did manage to cut the rails into Lvov, but it turned out that wasn't important, as everyone made it out.

A good start, though I think the Soviets are a bit too strong now. I didn't see in the notes why 7th Motorized is a Guards Division.

That Mech Corps around Kovel should be moved if it wasn't there historically, and moving it toward Rovno helps the Reds in general, though doesn't do much for the "Lvov pocket".

It seems like other units were specifically moved to prevent a "Lvov Pocket". If we're going to do that, just put a Rifle Division in Tarnopol, that would go a long way to preventing a breakout.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 10/28/2011 2:45:58 PM >

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 10/29/2011 4:37:16 PM

BletchleyGeek

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Thank you for testing, Q-Ball :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I did manage to cut the rails into Lvov, but it turned out that wasn't important, as everyone made it out.

Hmmm, those units should be frozen until Turn 2. I need to check that on the editor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
A good start, though I think the Soviets are a bit too strong now. I didn't see in the notes why 7th Motorized is a Guards Division.

I read several accounts of it being regarded a status similar to that of later war Guards units. But I think I'll drop that, having it with a high morale and experienced ground elements will suffice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
That Mech Corps around Kovel should be moved if it wasn't there historically, and moving it toward Rovno helps the Reds in general, though doesn't do much for the "Lvov pocket".

It seems like other units were specifically moved to prevent a "Lvov Pocket". If we're going to do that, just put a Rifle Division in Tarnopol, that would go a long way to preventing a breakout.

Note that the Mech Corps disposition is that they historicall had - more or less - in the 36 hours right off Barbarossa start. The goal is not as much as "enhancing" too much the Red Army, but giving it a fighting chance. Making the Lvov opening to be less than an "automatic" (or highly probable) success, and just make it "possible". I'm currently looking at T-28A scenario to see if I am able to capture into WitE mechanics the spirit of the fight there (btw, AWESOME scenario T-28, just AWESOME).

Seems you enjoyed the Reserves being committed :) Spoiling attacks here and there might reduce its effect, but since it's chance based it's not like anyone can just game that to soak all reserve units MP's. I feel Reserve mode isn't as often used as it should, but when you get it right, well, the feeling of the operations certainly "improves".

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 10/29/2011 4:38:40 PM >

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 12:45:34 PM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
I found 'The Bloody Triangle: The Defeat of Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941 by Victor Kamenir' very informative, although it only covers the first week, or so, it does so in great detail, including the fortunes of the 8th Mech.

I must admit I focused on the first half of the book. Can you remember - from the top of your head - where was Kamenir getting the account of 8th Mech Corps? On the situation maps 8th Mech Corps for the first four days - Turn 1 in WitE - I couldn't find it.

I don't know if you still need this, but a quick scan of Bloody Triangle gives these sources for 8 Mech. Corps.

Commander 8th Mechanised Corps, Lt. Col. Dimitry Ryabyshev - The First Year of the War, Moscow, Military Publishing. 1990 E-Book - www.mechcorps.rkka.ru, Russian Language site.

Political Deputy, 8th. Mech. Corps, Brigade Commander, Nikolai Popel - During Difficult Times, Moscow, AST Publishing 2001, Russian Language

Google translate did not work on the website, so I cannot confirm the source, but at least the author is quoting seeming valid sources. There may be more, but I have not tied it up with the text yet.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 1:23:49 PM

T-28A

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Ryabyshev:

Popel:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
Google translate did not work on the website, so I cannot confirm the source, but at least the author is quoting seeming valid sources.

http://mechcorps.rkka.ru is the most comprehensive and deep online source on Soviet mechanized troops creation, buildup in 1930s-1941 and specifically on mech corps structure, personnel and actions in summer-autumn 1941.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 1:34:50 PM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: T-28A
http://mechcorps.rkka.ru is the most comprehensive and deep online source on Soviet mechanized troops creation, buildup in 1930s-1941 and specifically on mech corps structure, personnel and actions in summer-autumn 1941.

Ack, Google Translate not working on that site is a MAJOR bummer :( Either I get a express course on Russian - which seems to me to be a beautiful language by the way - or I cajole someone into dig that for me :)

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 2:29:03 PM

Rasputitsa

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These two men were the senior commanders of 8th Mech. Corps and it would be very interesting to see what these original sources had to say. If you trust the content of 'Bloody Triangle', it certainly gives an excellent description of conditions and actions of both sides, during this critical battle, on a critical sector. I found it a very illuminating read, with lots of detail on, what is in effect, the first two turns of WiTE on the Southwestern Front.

For instance, what does it mean for Soviet unit MPs, where he describes Mechanised units as not receiving their allocation of trucks and the men having to carry their heavy equipment and follow the AFVs on foot. This was worse than the infantry units, who at least had horse drawn wagons to carry their equipment. Tank columns having to stop every 15 mins, on the march, to make running repairs to keep the vehicles operational.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 11/7/2011 2:40:33 PM >

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 2:38:36 PM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

These two men were the senior commanders of 8th Mech. Corps and it would be very interesting to see what these original sources had to say. If you trust the content of 'Bloody Triangle', it certainly gives an excellent description of conditions and actions of both sides, during this critical battle, on a critical sector. I found it a very illuminating read, with lots of detail on, what is in effect, the first two turns of WiTE on the Southwestern Front.

And do you think that the stock GC is an adequate portrayal of that? Do you think that this scenario - although still in a very early design phase - is on the right track? I'd like to hear opinions :)

EDIT: Actually, the question is: If the stock GC doesn't offer a reasonably accurate account of that critical first week, what can be done as a scenario designer - bound by game mechanics - to enhance that account?

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 11/7/2011 2:39:39 PM >

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 2:54:05 PM

Rasputitsa

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Just added an edit to earlier post, but not sure how to handle this in the game. The Soviets are already going to have tough time in the early turns, the content of the book makes it easier to understand why this should be, but will anyone buy that Mech. Corps might have less MPs than infantry units. The TOE/OOBs may reflect the allocation of vehicles, but does it show what the units actually received, before 22nd July 1941.

I would be good to have some Russian language confirmation of the sources, before using it as the basis for a major scenario change.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 11/7/2011 3:00:49 PM >

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 2:58:35 PM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

These two men were the senior commanders of 8th Mech. Corps and it would be very interesting to see what these original sources had to say. If you trust the content of 'Bloody Triangle', it certainly gives an excellent description of conditions and actions of both sides, during this critical battle, on a critical sector. I found it a very illuminating read, with lots of detail on, what is in effect, the first two turns of WiTE on the Southwestern Front.

For instance, what does it mean for Soviet unit MPs, where he describes Mechanised units as not receiving their allocation of trucks and the men having to carry their heavy equipment and follow the AFVs on foot. This was worse than the infantry units, who at least had horse drawn wagons to carry their equipment. Tank columns having to stop every 15 mins, on the march, to make running repairs to keep the vehicles operational.

Just noticed you edited the post.

Good question regarding the MP's. My point - and I think I've reasonably modeled it well on this scenario - is that they weren't critical to get key units into position to contest the German advance. Hence I redeployed Mech Corps to the positions I think they were just 24 - 36 hours after Barbarossa and set their MP's to max. Note that Vehicle allowances have been tweaked as well - generally for the worse, much worse - and while they get into combat, they're bound to suffer the same kind of horrific losses they suffered historically.

I mean, the point is not that the AGS is stopped cold but rather than it faces a substantial opposition during the first Axis turn. Putting these corps into reserve mode and maxing out MP's seemed to me to be the simplest way to have them to react to the phasing Axis player in a meaningful way. Just having the Axis player to get honest and forgo Hasty attacks - which might lure one or more Motorized units to the fray - and "invite" him to prefer Deliberate would slow down considerably Axis progress during Turn 1.

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RE: 41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front) - 11/7/2011 3:01:37 PM

BletchleyGeek

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On a another front, I'm thinking that rather than Freezing the whole of 17. Armee and two 6. Armee Korps, it would perhaps be a better idea to reduce their MP allowance on Turn 1. I'm still looking forward to D. Stahel book to get more info on the actions of those German formations, which I don't think are mentioned on Kamenir's "The Bloody Triangle". I've yet to finish the book by the way, I'm pretty much swamped at the moment

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