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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/4/2011 8:10:39 PM   
Canoerebel


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Do fighters need supply to fly CAP?  I don't think so, but I could be wrong.  I thought they needed supply to repair disablement or damage, but that those that are airworthy can fly CAP without supply.  If that's not the case, then Paramushiro and Pago Pago are really going to be tough to supply.

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Post #: 1951
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/4/2011 9:25:22 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Do fighters need supply to fly CAP?  I don't think so, but I could be wrong.  I thought they needed supply to repair disablement or damage, but that those that are airworthy can fly CAP without supply.  If that's not the case, then Paramushiro and Pago Pago are really going to be tough to supply.


15.4 .. "Mission types (search, CAP) expend 1/3 of a supply point per plane per Mission" (p. 252)

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Post #: 1952
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/4/2011 9:43:45 PM   
kfsgo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Do fighters need supply to fly CAP?  I don't think so, but I could be wrong.  I thought they needed supply to repair disablement or damage, but that those that are airworthy can fly CAP without supply.  If that's not the case, then Paramushiro and Pago Pago are really going to be tough to supply.


Well - can you get a single ship in before the main effort to give you a little reserve for flight ops? I find aircraft rarely launch against solo merchants - adding even the slightest escort changes that, but single ships seem to get around ok. Submarines are a danger, of course...

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Post #: 1953
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/4/2011 9:59:35 PM   
Cribtop


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Time for what I call a "kamikaze xAK" in my AAR

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Post #: 1954
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/4/2011 10:14:23 PM   
princep01

 

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Or, you could give your CVs a little break from watching Sumatra and swing them over to Pago for a nice surprise bash on his airfield at Sauvii. Then, you could sail the merchants in quickly while the field was suppressed and supply away. All this could be done before more than a small fraction of the remanents of the KB sailed into town. You could tarry a bit to see if you got another shot at a piece of the KB or just sail immediately back to the IO. You know where his carriers are and Palembang Fortress can surely protect itself while the CVs are away. You could even set a big sub trap (a torpedo might actually explode about now) and see if he will run the CVs over them. Lots of fun could be had.

But, the single ship idea will work in all likelihood. You could even sail two single "blockade runners" in simultaneously. Both could make it. (Civil War southerner types know all about that. Some rum runners do too) That would enable you to get the CAP up anyway.

All this sitting around in the IO is cool and all, but you could make an opportunity of this. Don't let that old fortress mentality tie your hands.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/4/2011 10:44:15 PM   
JeffroK


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And how long does it take to move from the DEI to PP??

And while the CV are away maybe Chez has plans, he also could be planning diversionary operations.

?   Ae there any bases you can build up south of PP to provide support (or a sally port)


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Post #: 1956
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/4/2011 10:47:58 PM   
Canoerebel


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My carriers are staying right where they are!  No way I'd move them from the key theater for a mission to a theater that is irrelevant (except that for months it kept drawing Japanese forces like a vortex of sublime irrelevancy).

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Post #: 1957
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/5/2011 1:11:17 AM   
princep01

 

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Jeff, it will take about a month to sail them there and back again depending on how fast one chooses to sail. In the meantime, the old rum runner trick can be tried and will probably work enough to supply the base.

CR, of course it can be made relevant if your 6 CVs engage a pair of KB stalwarts and sink them all the way to Davey Jone's Locker. You know Chez has the perchance to move about in CV divisions as he is currently doing around Tarawa. You know where he is. He does not know with certainty where you are. It is not saving Pago that is the goal, but attriting his navy even further. It looks like an opportunity, and one that will surprise him while not unnecessarily risking the Fortress as he is highly unlikely to land without some CV support in the area.

Just a thought. If it does not fit your plan, then the rum runners will probably do the trick of getting enough supply to Pago to keep your AF viable there.

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Post #: 1958
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/5/2011 3:11:29 AM   
zuluhour


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quote:

You could tarry a bit

Man I had to google tarry, I did'nt realise Webster was a southerner.

CR have you hurt his sub fleet?

< Message edited by zuluhour -- 11/5/2011 3:13:35 AM >

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Post #: 1959
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/5/2011 11:38:04 AM   
Canoerebel


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Upon being told that there was no such word as "cooter" in Webster's Dictionary, a Confederate private said, "I have as much right to make a dictionary as Mr. Webster."*

*From Company Aytch, by Sam Watkins, 1st Tennessee Infantry.  (Great book about the Civil War by one of those who participated in the fight.)

I haven't hurt Steve's sub fleet.

Princep, I think Steve's fondest hope is that his activity in the Pacific might draw the Allied carriers so that he wouldn't have to deal with them in Sumatra.  Whether that's his hope or not, though, I wouldn't dare remove that force from the locus of by far the most important battle that will be fought in this match.  To get them to SoPac and back would be a four to six week excercise with no promise of anything meaningful accomplished, while they guarantee Allied naval superiority in the IO until Japan brings the full KB back.  They are playing a critical role right now.

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Post #: 1960
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/5/2011 12:25:32 PM   
JeffroK


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Company Aytch available at project Gutenburg.

Found this out after I got my hard copy.


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Post #: 1961
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/6/2011 12:23:03 AM   
erstad

 

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quote:

Upon being told that there was no such word as "cooter" in Webster's Dictionary, a Confederate private said, "I have as much right to make a dictionary as Mr. Webster."*


Found in 20 dictionaries today by onelook, including the 1913 edition of Webster's.

http://www.onelook.com/?w=cooter&ls=a

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Post #: 1962
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/6/2011 2:55:06 AM   
Canoerebel


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Those dictionaries probably added the word after the Confederate private embarrassed them.

Prodded to look up the quote, here it is (and I must say I got the gist of the thing right, up above):

"The histories of the Lost Cause (Civil War) are all written out by the 'big bugs,' generals and renowned historians, and like the fellow who called a turtle a 'cooter,' being told that no such word as cooter was in Webster's dictionary, remarked that he had as much right to make a dictionary as Mr. Webster or any other man; so have I to write a history."

Watkins, Sam R., Co. Aytch: A Sideshow of the Big Show. Published 1962 by Collier Books, New York, p. 19.

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Post #: 1963
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/6/2011 4:20:30 AM   
Cribtop


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Reminds me of a book I read in which Union soldiers ask captured Confederates why they fought. The Yankees were shocked to hear the Rebs say they were fighting "...to defend our Rats." Eventually a more genteel Southern captive translated "rats" as "rights."

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Post #: 1964
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/6/2011 4:26:05 AM   
Canoerebel


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This dialogue is painfully reproduced in the movie Gettysburg.  The movie is a gem (and what music!), but that particular scene seems painfully forced and awkward.

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Post #: 1965
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/6/2011 5:51:58 AM   
Cribtop


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Agreed.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/6/2011 12:42:06 PM   
Canoerebel


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8/26/42
 
NoPac:  The first of what promises to be a sloppy few days goes fairly well.  All Allied transports have arrived at Para; some even had time to unload a few squads and a smidgen of supply.  Enemy bombers sank a couple of xAK with one or two more damaged.  The DMs laid mines and skedaddled.  The Qunicy TF arrived and departed (oops, I forgot to issue orders to remain on station).  Fortunately, it is close enough to Para to make it back tonight.  Things should get even more ugly tomorrow, but let's see.

CenPac:  At least one carrier group still operating near Tarawa.

SoPac: Three xAK with supply go into PP tonight.  Three fighter squadrons totaling about 25 fighters will offer CAP.  The TFs carrying engineers to PM and Milne arrived without detection, but didn't have enough time to begin unloading today.  The big TFs carrying strong reinforcements to those bases are beginning the approach to New Zealand's north cape, which they should pass in three days or so.

DEI:  Reinforcements landed at Oosthaven without incident.  Some IJ reinforcements are on the way to Sibolga, but the units are few and weak.  It is clear that there is not a credible IJ operation underway that would have a chance of taking Padang.  Nothing's going to change in eastern Sumatra in the next month or so.  That should mean that the campaign will safely reach the point where Japan has absolutely no chance of achieving victory here.  That, in turn, means the Allies are going to have this big base (with multiple big airfields in close proximity) as the launching pad for offensive operations in 1943.  Thus, it would seem that the penultimate contest in this particular match - or what should have been - will end with a whimper, the Allies victorious.

Burma:  The Happy Stalemate at Magwe continues.

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Post #: 1967
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 12:47:21 AM   
Canoerebel


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8/27/42

NoPac: A very successful day by my peculiar reckoning. Japanese strike planes damaged or sank six or seven ships - an AM, a damaged xAP, and a handful of xAK, but missed strikes against the Quincy TF. Allied CAP performed decently, considering its small numbers. Most significantly, 26,000 supply came ashore and nearly all ships are empty. The rest of 112th Cav came ashore, boosting AV to about 650. With the operation concluding, all but two xAK and the PT TFs will depart for home tonight. Barring appearance by Zuikaku and Shokaku, most or all should escape.

CenPac: The Ashigara TF visits Tarawa and a CV TF stands just to the west. Japan doesn't seem to be paying any attention to Ndeni.

SoPac: The hemorraging IJ AV at Pago Pago is due to a Dunkirk operation. Three Allied xAK stumbled across a fast transport convoy at the base. Enemy AV is down to 600 from a high of 820. (I hadn't considered this possibility because I figured Allied CD units would engage any enemy TFs in the hex.)

SWPac: The engineers landing at PM and Milne had a full day, but I forgot to check this area during the turn, so I'm not sure how much progress was made. I didn't catch any signs of detection during the turn replay.

DEI: A day or two back, Cooper-Slipper was KIA. He was my third-leading ace with about 14 kills. An RAF unit has about six pilots qualifying for TRACOM. My understanding is that TRACOM isn't worth it - that it's better to keep high quality pilots on the front engaging the enemy. Any thoughts to the contrary?

Burma: The Happy Stalemate at Magwe continues.

Sumatra: Steve's comments about "Festung Palembang" on the front page was very revealing - too revealing for his own good, to be honest. I want to address his comments at length when I have a bit of time later.


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Post #: 1968
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 1:09:38 AM   
Cribtop


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1) NOPAC. Much better job at quickly getting supply ashore than last time. To what do you attribute the faster unloading of supply?

2) SOPAC. Very surprised your CD guns didn't fire at Pago Pago. Withdrawal here makes sense from Chez' viewpoint.

3) Sumatra. I also read those comments and would be interested in your upcoming discussion.

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Post #: 1969
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 4:57:51 AM   
Canoerebel


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I air-transported a naval support unit from Attu to Para near the end of the first "boat-lift" operation in early August. It was too late to help then, but seems to have really helped this time.

As for Steve's comments regarding "Festung Sumatra": durn, he gave away some intelligence there. He's not kidding when he says he's decided not to contest Sumatra. I was beginning to wonder, but that ices it. He's going to concentrate in the Pacific and let the Allies have their way in Sumatra. He can still fight a tough and long war, but for all intents and purposes he just announced that he is conceding the game.

It would be like the South capturing Washington D.C., Baltimore and Philidalphia in late 1861 and the North declaring, "Well, we're going to concentrate on St. Louis, Memphis and New Orleans." It just won't work.

Clearly, we are coming at this from two opposite perspectives. He's a simulator; I'm a gamer. I wasn't aware of the difference at the outset, having only played gamers (John III, Miller and Q-Ball). Awareness dawned gradually, but by the time I really had a handle on this it was too late for me to change my approach, even had I wanted to. With 4,500 AV committed to Sumatra (way, way out on a limb), I had to do everything possible to prevent Steve from sawing the limb off. So, through no real fault by either party, we were approaching the game in diametrically opposite ways that produced a contest that is weird.

With Steve's straightforward declaration that he isn't coming for the DEI, I know I can afford to send my carriers to the Pacific. But I won't for two reasons: (1) Under the present circumstances, the Allies control the sea lanes into and out of eastern Sumatra. That means the Allies can reinforce and resupply at will. That will also help in moving forward from Sumatra into the islands to the north (and eventually into Borneo). No way I want to jeapardize this very "cozy" and satisfactory arrangement. (2) It is possible that Steve will wake up, smell the coffee, and belatedly throw everything at Sumatra.

He can certainly overwhelm anything the Allies hold in the Pacific, though it will take time and be expensive. The Allies will continue to try to create problems for him there, but mainly I want to feed and grow the Allied position in the DEI. The Allies have a tremendous position and opportunity that I'll never encounter again, so I'll continue to enjoy these happy days while they last.

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Post #: 1970
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 5:39:27 AM   
JeffroK


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Yeah be careful, I think Alfred gave him a kick in the rearabout his priorities.

Also, IMVHO, gamer v simulator isnt an excuse, Chez has almost ignored your hold in Sumatra and poured resources into PagoPago. How is his approach "simulation"

I think its more that you did the unexpected, and he didnt have a plan to react to it or the ability to change his plans to counter you. KB in the sealanes of the IO might have caused you to rethink, or at least slow you down.

If you flick through the DEI bases, are there some ripe resource targets to aim for?

PS. I've always wanted to invade Great Nateuna (sp?? between Singers and Borneo) can it be added to your itinerary?


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Post #: 1971
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 6:01:47 AM   
Canoerebel


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There are eleven zillion islands north of Sumatra that the Allies could occupy and build given time and resources.  Of course, resources (engineers, troops) are limited, base building takes time, and at some point the enemy is going to awaken to this tactic and (1) contest some of the islands the Allies have occupied or will occupy given time, and (2) occupy and build some islands of his own choosing.

The Allies have recently occupied three bases: Billiton Island, Toboali, and Singkep.  Engineers at Billiton will have a level one airfield built in a few weeks.  Once the Allies get decent garrisons and airfields operational at Billiton and Toboali, the next step (given the opporuntiy still exists then) will be to occupy Ketapang, and isoalted jungle base on Borneo's south side.  After that, we'll see.

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Post #: 1972
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 8:47:28 AM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

DEI: A day or two back, Cooper-Slipper was KIA. He was my third-leading ace with about 14 kills. An RAF unit has about six pilots qualifying for TRACOM. My understanding is that TRACOM isn't worth it - that it's better to keep high quality pilots on the front engaging the enemy. Any thoughts to the contrary?




Noooo...Cooper Slipper?!?!?! ...he has 46 kills in my game...a MASTER!... however don't bother with Tracom...you will get lots of new squadrons with lots of pilots with 60 exp...you really don't need tracom. Use it as an elite reserve where to park your aces when you wanna give them some rest

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Post #: 1973
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 9:14:59 AM   
Erkki


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

DEI: A day or two back, Cooper-Slipper was KIA. He was my third-leading ace with about 14 kills. An RAF unit has about six pilots qualifying for TRACOM. My understanding is that TRACOM isn't worth it - that it's better to keep high quality pilots on the front engaging the enemy. Any thoughts to the contrary?




Noooo...Cooper Slipper?!?!?! ...he has 46 kills in my game...a MASTER!... however don't bother with Tracom...you will get lots of new squadrons with lots of pilots with 60 exp...you really don't need tracom. Use it as an elite reserve where to park your aces when you wanna give them some rest



BTW how does the TRACOM work for the Allies? For Japanese, the TRACOM pilots, as far as I know, have chance to graduate pilots earlier, effectively saving some HI points, as well as lowering the chance of graduate pilot EXP being below national average, or something. How do the TRACOM pilots help the Allies?

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Post #: 1974
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 9:44:28 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

DEI: A day or two back, Cooper-Slipper was KIA. He was my third-leading ace with about 14 kills. An RAF unit has about six pilots qualifying for TRACOM. My understanding is that TRACOM isn't worth it - that it's better to keep high quality pilots on the front engaging the enemy. Any thoughts to the contrary?




Noooo...Cooper Slipper?!?!?! ...he has 46 kills in my game...a MASTER!... however don't bother with Tracom...you will get lots of new squadrons with lots of pilots with 60 exp...you really don't need tracom. Use it as an elite reserve where to park your aces when you wanna give them some rest



BTW how does the TRACOM work for the Allies? For Japanese, the TRACOM pilots, as far as I know, have chance to graduate pilots earlier, effectively saving some HI points, as well as lowering the chance of graduate pilot EXP being below national average, or something. How do the TRACOM pilots help the Allies?


The same.

Alfred

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Post #: 1975
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 6:02:34 PM   
Canoerebel


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Well, for a week I've been compiling notes and promising an indepth look at the development of Fortress Sumatra in this game.  I thought it might help to have a detailed summary for newcomers to the AAR rather than having to sift through 66 pages.  The topic seems even more appropriate now that it has also come up on the main page, so I have finished going through the AAR to make notes on the relevant developments.

Before posting the summary, though, here are some general comments about what's taken place in Fortress Sumatra in the game (the summary will take time and will follow in a separate post this afternoon):

1.  I got the idea for Fortress Palembang from a comment Nemo made around the 12/10/41 turn.

2.  Through mid January 1942, my idea was simply to use local troops (Dutch and Commonwealth) to create a road block at Palembang.  IE, the "fortress" was nothing more than a speed bump at the time.  It could have been easily attended to by Japan.

3.  In mid January 1942, I picked up some SigInt and troop movement that convinced me that the enemy was in disarray, unsure of its objectives, and focusing on Luzon rather than the DEI.  It was at that point that the Alies decided to ramp up the operation from a speed bump to a true fortress.  Of course, the development of Fortress Sumatra would be implemented gradually over many months.  For most of that period, I beleived that it was still within Japan's unilateral power to focus everything on Sumatra and win.

4.  By mid July 1942, I transitioned from that opinion to an opinion that Japan no longer had the unilateral power to win a campaign for eastern Sumatra.  The Allies, I believed, could successfully oppose any such operation.  Such opposition was not guaranteed to succeed, but I felt that it was likely to.

5.  By August 1942, with Japan having committed the KB and many battleships in the Pacific, I concluded that Japan could no longer win in Sumatra.  So the purely defensive phase in the DEI ended and the Allies began looking at occupying additional bases. 

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 11/7/2011 6:04:00 PM >

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Post #: 1976
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 6:11:14 PM   
Canoerebel


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Here's another oddity - I've only seen fullscale Fortress Sumatra strategies employed in two games - this one and Nemo's vs. 1 Eyed Jacks.  (There are others, but these are the only two I've followed).

In both cases, the Allies were able to establish massive defenses in preparation for an enemy invasion.  I think the players and readers were looking forward to carnage:  massive amphibious landings vs. shoreguns, big garrisons, and fullscale counterattacks by capital ships, carriers, and LBA.  What fun it would be!

But in neither of these two games did Japan move on Fortress Sumatra. 

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Post #: 1977
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 6:14:47 PM   
obvert


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Good summary CR. Having followed this from the beginning it seems like maybe one other stage between January and July might add to the picture. Around the end of the invasion bonus I seem to remember Alfred and Nemo, maybe others as well, voicing that this strategy could still be manipulated into Japan's favour, but would take a massive and immediate response.

I could be wrong about the exact timing and commentators involved, but there seemed to be one other turning point when it began to go over the edge toward unrecoverable for Japan.

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Post #: 1978
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 6:24:58 PM   
Canoerebel


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Nemo and Alfred (and probably a few others) made it clear that Fortress Sumatra could be turned against the Allies.  I can tell you that their analysis cost me a few grey hairs.  I had some general notions how that might be accomplished, but there were lots of important little things that I was overlooking due to inexperience and ignorance.  Having gone this far, I now know much better the potential weaknesses in - and exploits of - a Fortress Sumatra defense.  I can only say I'm glad Steve didn't pursue this.

Some players might wonder whether I veered too strongly into following the suggestions and advice of others.  I don't believe I have.  I do welcome advice in my AAR - I love it, read it, and try to learn from it - but I also sift through it, accepting some and rejecting some.

For instance, early in this game I recall three items of commentary from Nemo:  (1) Defend Palembang rather than Soerabaja; (2) Defend Palembang rather than Singapore; and (3) Don't send CV Lexington chasing after the enemy oilers.  I acted on the first suggestion but not the second two.

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Post #: 1979
RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 11/7/2011 6:33:41 PM   
obvert


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quote:

Well, for a week I've been compiling notes and promising an indepth look at the development of Fortress Sumatra in this game.  I thought it might help to have a detailed summary for newcomers to the AAR rather than having to sift through 66 pages.  The topic seems even more appropriate now that it has also come up on the main page, so I have finished going through the AAR to make notes on the relevant developments.

Before posting the summary, though, here are some general comments about what's taken place in Fortress Sumatra in the game (the summary will take time and will follow in a separate post this afternoon):

1.  I got the idea for Fortress Palembang from a comment Nemo made around the 12/10/41 turn.

2.  Through mid January 1942, my idea was simply to use local troops (Dutch and Commonwealth) to create a road block at Palembang.  IE, the "fortress" was nothing more than a speed bump at the time.  It could have been easily attended to by Japan.

3.  In mid January 1942, I picked up some SigInt and troop movement that convinced me that the enemy was in disarray, unsure of its objectives, and focusing on Luzon rather than the DEI.  It was at that point that the Alies decided to ramp up the operation from a speed bump to a true fortress.  Of course, the development of Fortress Sumatra would be implemented gradually over many months.  For most of that period, I beleived that it was still within Japan's unilateral power to focus everything on Sumatra and win.

4.  By mid July 1942, I transitioned from that opinion to an opinion that Japan no longer had the unilateral power to win a campaign for eastern Sumatra.  The Allies, I believed, could successfully oppose any such operation.  Such opposition was not guaranteed to succeed, but I felt that it was likely to.

5.  By August 1942, with Japan having committed the KB and many battleships in the Pacific, I concluded that Japan could no longer win in Sumatra.  So the purely defensive phase in the DEI ended and the Allies began looking at occupying additional bases. 


quote:

Nemo and Alfred (and probably a few others) made it clear that Fortress Sumatra could be turned against the Allies. I can tell you that their analysis cost me a few grey hairs. I had some general notions how that might be accomplished, but there were lots of important little things that I was overlooking due to inexperience and ignorance. Having gone this far, I now know much better the potential weaknesses in - and exploits of - a Fortress Sumatra defense. I can only say I'm glad Steve didn't pursue this.

Some players might wonder whether I veered too strongly into following the suggestions and advice of others. I don't believe I have. I do welcome advice in my AAR - I love it, read it, and try to learn from it - but I also sift through it, accepting some and rejecting some.

For instance, early in this game I recall three items of commentary from Nemo: (1) Defend Palembang rather than Soerabaja; (2) Defend Palembang rather than Singapore; and (3) Don't send CV Lexington chasing after the enemy oilers. I acted on the first suggestion but not the second two.


You also did not jump when Nemo pushed for you to begin the offensive in April and stuck to your plan, which has so far proven successful and begun to slowly squeeze the Japanese both in space and resources. While that invasion might have been successful, it could also have led Japan to forget about all Pacific plans and focus on the DEI, which would have made the fight here more difficult perhaps.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 1980
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