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Panzer Quizz - 9/26/2002 1:30:00 AM   
Alexei

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/17/2001
From: France
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Last summer I visited our exceptional (a little national pride :) ) "Musée des Blindés de Saumur" (no need to translate I guess ;) - BTW the url is http://www.musee-des-blindes.asso.fr/blindes/jcollect.htm). In the museum reserves, I noticed two unidentified tanks. Now I would really like to know what you think they are!

No idea about the first one... Is it even WWII? Strange gun anyhow.
The second one... well I have the beginning of an idea; to give you as many signs as I have, I measured the caliber of the gun: a bit less than 50mm.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Attachment (1)

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Alexei.
Post #: 1
- 9/26/2002 1:57:34 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Hello

That assault gun is Swedish Stormartillerivagn m/43, 105mm gun, in use until 1973. link: http://www.foreningenp5.com/stormartillerivagn_m_43.htm
in swedish though

That other one looks familiar but it's name escapes me now.
updat: looks like a R-35 variant, with cupola removed and longer gun.

Voriax

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Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 2
Well to start - 9/26/2002 2:02:47 AM   
Don Doom


Posts: 2446
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Lost somewhere in the upper backwoods of Michigan!
Status: offline 		The chassie is based on the cech 38 series, the rest looks like a post war addon. Russian maybe? The gun mount reminds me of the su-85,100 tanks.:)

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Doom
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 3
- 9/26/2002 2:25:56 AM   
Kevin E. Duguay

 

Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Goldsboro, North Carolina
Status: offline 		I agree about the first, Swedish.

Could the second be an R35 mounting a Russian 45mm tank gun? I belive a few of these were converted by the Rumainians durring WWII.;) :)

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KED

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Post #: 4
- 9/26/2002 2:33:43 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		The first one's [I]definitely[/I] a Stormartillerivagn m/43. Here's a pic of what a helthy one looks like..

[IMG]http://www.foreningenp5.com/images/sav_m43.jpg[/IMG]

But the second one I'm a bit curious about. Almost...aaalmost looks kinda BT-ish..the turret does look Russian :p

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Got StuG?

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Post #: 5
- 9/26/2002 2:33:48 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin E. Duguay
[B]
Could the second be an R35 mounting a Russian 45mm tank gun? I belive a few of these were converted by the Rumainians durring WWII.;) :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Was my thought also..however the gun seemed odd. now if you look at this pic: http://www.armata.home.ro/weapons/armour/R35-45.htm
you see that the recoil absorber below the gun doesn't look the same..might be that some kind of covering is missing from that museum tank.

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 6
- 9/26/2002 2:44:59 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Whoops.. pardon my french. That's a R35, at least the tracks, mudguards, front "glacis" and driver's visor check out. :cool:

The turret still seems odd. If it's the 45mm conversion, it lacks the commander's cupola, and the mantlet is more square-ish, IIRC? :confused:

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Got StuG?

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Post #: 7
- 9/26/2002 3:12:40 AM   
Don Doom


Posts: 2446
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Lost somewhere in the upper backwoods of Michigan!
Status: offline 		Ok, I surrender on that one. the seconded one I could only hazard a guess on, like one of the french tanks that was modified just before D-Day??:)

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Doom
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 8
- 9/26/2002 3:40:20 AM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		You guys are all fantastic! I love it how quickly we get information.

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Post #: 9
- 9/26/2002 7:29:41 AM   
Kevin E. Duguay

 

Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Goldsboro, North Carolina
Status: offline 		After looking at the other picture and reading the text posted by Voriax I still stand by my original post. This is a Rumanian conversion. The armament does have a funny look to it though. Maybe its a Schneider 47mm instead of the Russian 45mm? This would make it quite the rare bird indeed!!:eek:

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KED

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Post #: 10
- 9/26/2002 3:28:44 PM   
Alexei

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/17/2001
From: France
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by REMF
[B]You guys are all fantastic! I love it how quickly we get information. [/B][/QUOTE]
Waow even more than that... I am completely stunned :) :) !
Thanks for all these fruitful infos !!!

Now I have just to hope that both tanks will be restored and exposed... At least the second one, which surely deserves it!

Thanks again,

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Alexei.

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Post #: 11
- 9/26/2002 10:10:55 PM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		The amount of information at the fingertips of people on this site never ceases to amaze me. I hope they at least put a coat of paint on these things. Old armor, like old warhorses, should be treated a bit better than the glue factory or the rust bucket.

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Challenge

War is unhealthy for die-stamped cardboard and other paper products.

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 12
- 9/27/2002 8:00:21 PM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		I AM NOT OLD!!:D :D :D Sorry....

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Mike Amos

Meine Ehre heißt Treue
www.cslegion.com

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 13
- 9/27/2002 10:36:08 PM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		Sheesh, take it personal why don'cha...:eek:

So you want a new coat of paint? :D

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Challenge

War is unhealthy for die-stamped cardboard and other paper products.

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 14
- 10/31/2002 6:10:44 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Hehe..had to dig a bit to find this topic...but I stumbled upon the following:
http://www.webone.com.au/~myszka/Arab/Gallery/R35/ArabR35.htm

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 15
- 10/31/2002 7:00:46 AM   
Don Doom


Posts: 2446
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Lost somewhere in the upper backwoods of Michigan!
Status: offline 		Thanks:D

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Doom
Vet of the Russian General Winter
For death is only the begining

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 16
- 10/31/2002 1:36:33 PM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		I'm just pissed off that I was in France in September, went to that museum and didn't know you could wander around in the back lot like Alexei did!

I have pictures of several tanks there if anyone wants to see them but I don't know how to attach images to posts.

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 17
- 10/31/2002 6:09:15 PM   
Alexei

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/17/2001
From: France
Status: offline 		Sure rbrunsman you can wander around, just beware not to be locked out when they close the external door, as I did :) !
Lots of strange stuff to see...

BTW I don't remember how I attached the image but it was not what I intended to do... Actually I wanted to have those photos part of my post, without the need to click to see them. Does somebody know how I should proceed... for the next quizz ;) ?

Thanks,

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Alexei.

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 18
- 10/31/2002 6:09:59 PM   
Alexei

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/17/2001
From: France
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]Hehe..had to dig a bit to find this topic...but I stumbled upon the following:
http://www.webone.com.au/~myszka/Arab/Gallery/R35/ArabR35.htm

Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link Voriax !

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Alexei.

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 19
- 10/31/2002 7:44:00 PM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by challenge
[B]Sheesh, take it personal why don'cha...:eek:

So you want a new coat of paint? :D [/B][/QUOTE]

Sure!!! Feld Grau please.:D

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Mike Amos

Meine Ehre heißt Treue
www.cslegion.com

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 20
- 10/31/2002 10:06:39 PM   
Bing

 

Posts: 1366
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Voriax - That turret certainly carries the feel and style of Russian design. Since lots of Soviet/Russian armor found its way to the Middle East, it is possible a T-34 turret was adapted to the chassis/hull.

One way to narrow the possibilities is if you can get a look at the top of the turret. The hatch configuration and placement are identifiers. Then go to: http://www.battlefield.ru/ and start going through the T-34 material, of which there is a ton, also the site includes detailed material every tank that went into production in Russia during WW2. Plus armored cars and artillery.

Possibly the turret is a very early T-34 or a T-34 predecessor - hard for me to tell , however I am pretty sure the real Soviet armor buffs here can verify or refute my guesswork.

Bing

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"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has a Taste And A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know. " -
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 21
- 11/1/2002 12:05:25 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Bing, that site is a familiar one. But I'd still say that the turret is an original one, though heavily modified. In original R35 there would be a coax mg left of the gun, and in this museum pic it's place has been faired over. I haven't identified the gun..that would give further ideas about the origin of this vehicle.

If this was a Syrian vehicle it could be that they got surplus R35's from Turkey or got them from war surplus sales. Then made a local modification by upgunning the tank and for some reason removing the commander cupola. Perhaps the new gun took so much space that it was impossible to use the cupola. That could also explain the lack of Mg

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 22
- 11/1/2002 2:56:21 AM   
Bing

 

Posts: 1366
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, does appear to be a turret that would be crowded, just a guess on my part, the general profile of the turret resembles an early T-34. I suppose a lot of turrets made in different nations about the same time in history look somewhat similar.

I'm just getting into the WW2 armor stuff in any depth; after years being around it I started digging. So far as the Russians/Soviets are concerned I have excellent sources in my library for post-WW2.

For WW2 I have some of the Osprey (Zaloga), the Hogg of course and the Bird for WW2. Pus the overall Bishop encyclopedia, which really is quite good. I want if possible to stay away from Schiffer Publishing, so for now I won't be buying their Soviet WW2 armor book.

Does anyone know of a truly comprehensive text on Soviet WW2 armor, along the lines of the Darlington book on post-WW2 development(Zaloga again and two other authors)? Don't mind paying a reasonable price, a truly comprehensive study such as the above actually saves money in the long run. I also don't want the speculative type of writing, the sources ought to be as much from the design bureaus as is humanly possible.

Strictly WW2 and confined to Russian/Soviet.

Thanking all in advance for their suggestions,

Bing

_____________________________

"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has a Taste And A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know. " -
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website

(in reply to Alexei)
Post #: 23
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