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A book rental thread 2011 - 11/13/2011 9:16:01 PM

Perturabo
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So, here's a thread where we brag about how much money we stole from book authors.
Also, we celebrate our cultural and intellectual development by posting a list of the titles which we have read for free.
It's for piracy by libraries only.

Books stolen so far:
Textbooks:
A textbook for algorithms and data structures - 30 PLN
A textbook for Assembler - 30 PLN
A textbook for mathematical analysis and linear algebra - 40 PLN
A textbook for mathematical analysis and linear algebra - 20 PLN
A textbook for mathematical analysis and linear algebra - 20 PLN
A textbook for mathematical analysis and linear algebra - 20 PLN
A textbook for statistics - 60 PLN
A textbook for GIMP - 70 PLN

Together: 220 PLN (68$)

Novels:
Ian Fleming - Casino Royale - 27 PLN
Ian Fleming - Doctor No - 27 PLN
Robert Sheckley - Hunter/Victim - 25 PLN
Arthur C. Clarke - Rama II - 30 PLN
Arthur C. Clarke - Garden of Rama - 30 PLN
Arthur C. Clarke - The Last Theorem - 30 PLN
Jarosław Grzędowicz - Pan Lodowego Ogrodu Tom 1 - 33 PLN
Jarosław Grzędowicz - Pan Lodowego Ogrodu Tom 2 - 33 PLN
Jarosław Grzędowicz - Popiół i kurz. Opowieść ze świata pomiędzy - 34 PLN
Michael Moorecock - The Sailor on the Seas of Fate - 20 PLN
Michael Moorecock - The Weird of the White Wolf - 20 PLN
Michael Moorecock - The Sleeping Sorceress - 20 PLN
Michael Moorecock - The Revenge of the Rose - 20 PLN
Michael Moorecock - The Bane of the Black Sword - 20 PLN
Michael Moorecock - The Eternal Champion - 20 PLN
Michael Moorecock - Phoenix in Obsidian - 20 PLN
H.P. Lovecraft - The Call of Cthulhu - 23 PLN
Cormac McCarthy - The Road - 30 PLN
Erich Maria Remarque - All Quiet on Western Front - 34 PLN
Sarah Waters - Fingersmith - 30 PLN
Edgar Rice Burroughs - A Princess of Mars - 25 PLN
Sven Hassel - Reign of Hell - 28 PLN
Sven Hassel - Monte Cassino - 28 PLN
C.S. Lewis - Cosmic Trilogy - 60 PLN
Jacek Piekara - Miecz Aniołów - 37 PLN
Jacek Piekara - Łowcy dusz - 37 PLN
Jacek Piekara - Mordimer Madderdin - Płomień i krzyż, tom 1 - 37 PLN
Philip K. Dick - Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? - 25 PLN
Philip K. Dick - Dr Futurity - 25 PLN
Philip K. Dick - Our Friends from Frolix 8 - 25 PLN
Andrzej Ziemiński - Achaja Tom 1 - 30 PLN
Gordon Dickson - Soldier, Ask Not - 27 PLN
Sarban - The Sound of His Horn - 25 PLN
Bernard Cornwell - Azincourt - 40 PLN
David Weber - Bolo! Veterans - 27 PLN
David Weber - Field of Dishonor - 40 PLN
Sarah Dunant - In the Company of the Courtesan - 40 PLN
Ray Bradburry - The Martian Chronicles - 30 PLN

Together:
1142 PLN (354$)

Memoirs
Borys Michajłowicz Czetwieruchin - The last from Tsushima - 30 PLN
Ernst Jünger - Storm of Steel - 27 PLN

Together:
57 PLN (18$)

History Books:
Richard Pipes - Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime - 62 PLN
Dennis E. Showalter - Tannenberg, Clash of Empires, 1914 - 64 PLN
Historical battle series - 27 PLN x 4
Jan Gozdawa-Gołębiewski, Tadeusz Wywerka Prekurat - WWI on Sea - 60 PLN

Together:
294 PLN (91$)

Helping others to steal - each book shared in the library counts 10 times:

Anja Snellman - Pet Shop Girls - 37 PLN x 10
Marcin Gawęda - Rebelia - 35 PLN x 10

Together:
720 PLN (223$)

Then here's a problem. Theoretically, there should be the following books:

Jack Campbell - The Lost Fleet: Dauntless 40 PLN x 10
Dan Abnett - Horus Rising - 34 PLN x 10
Graham Mcneil - 34 PLN x 10

The problem is that someone removed them from the inventory. They are gone. More, when I donated Dauntless, there was a promotion where if one would share a fantasy/sci-fi book, they would buy the rest of the series. So, they bought the whole series and it got stolen. More, someone is stealing other fantasy/sci-fi books from the libraries. I don't think they got rent more than once, so together it's:
108 PLN (34$)

Together it is:
2541 PLN (789$) stolen from the authors.

Out of these books, I have bought:
Michael Moorecock - The Stealer of Souls (The Weird of the White Wolf + The Bane of the Black Sword illustrated) - -51 PLN
H.P. Lovecraft - The Call of Cthulhu - -23 PLN

Together:
-74 PLN (-23$)

So, the final score is:
766$ (2467 PLN)

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 11/15/2011 3:15:18 AM >

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/13/2011 10:31:56 PM

Obsolete
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Well, thank god for book Piracy. I was starting to think that I was the only crook who went to libraries anymore these days.

Unfortunately, I'm not a very good criminal since in the last few years I've spent close to a couple hundred bucks in late fees.

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/13/2011 11:21:51 PM

Phatguy
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I remember those.....They have books in them, don't they?

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/13/2011 11:52:32 PM

E
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

So, here's a thread where we brag about how much money we stole from book authors.
Also, we celebrate our cultural and intellectual development by posting a list of the titles which we have read for free.
It's for piracy by libraries only.

You've got that all backwards. You're not reading any of them for free, if you or your parents ever paid any taxes. You paid to read them. Your taxes paid for them to be read. Now imagine the list of books you haven't read in a library, and that might approximate how much the library got over on you.

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/14/2011 3:28:55 AM

Perturabo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

So, here's a thread where we brag about how much money we stole from book authors.
Also, we celebrate our cultural and intellectual development by posting a list of the titles which we have read for free.
It's for piracy by libraries only.

You've got that all backwards. You're not reading any of them for free, if you or your parents ever paid any taxes. You paid to read them. Your taxes paid for them to be read. Now imagine the list of books you haven't read in a library, and that might approximate how much the library got over on you.

I didn't pay to read them. They were paid to be read by 1 person/family and most of them were already read by 10, with more popular ones being read by 20-30 people. The first reading was paid for, all the others were for free. And lots of them weren't actually bought by the library but simply brought there by the readers. Personally, I'm often donating books to library just to make room on my bookshelves as its rather hard to sell them to an antiquary.

There are some 360000 people in my city, 163000 of them are taxpayers. The libraries are gathering books since for over 20 years and so far have gathered a 1000000 of books. That's 6 books per a taxpayer and 0,3 books per taxpayer per year. I have read 54 books from libraries this year alone, which is much more than it costed me in taxes. I bought maybe 10 books this year and most of them was from abroad, and all but three of them were books which were unavailable in libraries (and these three were exclusive illustrated editions).

Libraries simply allow me to read much more books than I can afford paying for and paying 20 PLN less of taxes each year would give me just one cheap book, which would allow me to read the incredible amount of 12 books per year.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 11/14/2011 3:37:53 AM >

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/14/2011 3:51:03 AM

E
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
I didn't pay to read them.

I'm calling you on that one...

I do not believe that you or anyone in your family, has never paid taxes.

Libraries are NOT free (they're prepaid).

Bottom line is that libraries (NO matter the origin of their specific books), cost money. Period.

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/14/2011 4:13:59 AM

Perturabo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
I didn't pay to read them.

I'm calling you on that one...

I do not believe that you or anyone in your family, has never paid taxes.

Libraries are NOT free (they're prepaid).

Bottom line is that libraries (NO matter the origin of their specific books), cost money. Period.

Okay. I pay 20 PLN a year to be able to read books worth 2000 PLN.

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/14/2011 4:49:44 AM

E
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
I didn't pay to read them.

I'm calling you on that one...

I do not believe that you or anyone in your family, has never paid taxes.

Libraries are NOT free (they're prepaid).

Bottom line is that libraries (NO matter the origin of their specific books), cost money. Period.

Okay. I pay...

I know.

(note that I've never debated the outstanding value of libraries, just that sometimes people think they are "free," and occasionally even try using that erroneous thought in debates over piracy, etc, etc)

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/14/2011 7:59:52 AM

Perturabo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
I didn't pay to read them.

I'm calling you on that one...

I do not believe that you or anyone in your family, has never paid taxes.

Libraries are NOT free (they're prepaid).

Bottom line is that libraries (NO matter the origin of their specific books), cost money. Period.

Okay. I pay...

I know.

(note that I've never debated the outstanding value of libraries, just that sometimes people think they are "free," and occasionally even try using that erroneous thought in debates over piracy, etc, etc)

Whenever they are free or not doesn't matter. Since they are pre-paid, not rental, the author doesn't earn more money on more people using his intellectual property. Having libraries buy books doesn't compensate for the fact that people no longer have to buy books to read them. And unlike in case of stuff like music, there aren't much reasons to buy them after reading them. A book becomes a liability after reading unless one has a big house. Libraries lead to developing reading patterns like "read that piece of good/great literature, return it to library and then read another one".
Before I was introduced to libraries, I would simply buy books from my own money, even though they would just end up sitting on my shelves and taking up place. It would lead to limited selection of books and less money for stuff like music and games, but was much better for the authors. Then I have learned about the libraries and my buying patterns changed completely. I buy almost exclusively stuff that isn't in libraries. I actually, started buying Sapkowski's the Witcher series and Jacek Piekara's the Inquisitor series when I met a librarian that told me "why buy books when we have them in our library?"
And I haven't bought their other books - despite reading most of them. I know that I would buy them if there weren't libraries.
I have read the whole Harry Potter series except for the last tome from the library. My mother bought the last tome when it came out instead of waiting for it to appear in the library. Similarly, I have read the whole Song of Fire and Ice series except the two newest tomes from a library.
Two things important about selling i.p. are re-usability and luxuriousness of form. Books usually are just big bricks with text in it, maybe several half-assed illustrations. They usually aren't good merchandise.
Games can be played many times, especially wargames, music can be listened for years, boxes of both are made to be a good merchandise.
In the end, I have bought two books that I have read in a library several years ago. I bought them because they are good merchandise, not just carriers of data. They just sit on my shelf and look nice. I didn't even read them.
Yeah and I religiously collect Ospreys - I have 62 of them and buy them whenever they come out and I have 10 PLN to spare, even when they are from a time period that doesn't interest me.

That's why I believe that libraries are actually the most dangerous form of "piracy". They give people the originals to use. They target specifically the people who prefer to read the original book over reading an unauthorised ebook or something like that - the very people that would prefer to buy books over downloading them.

The whole idea behind libraries is to fight against primitivism, illiteracy and narrow-mindedness, and allowing people to be much more cultured than they can afford. The authors are just a collateral damage in that fight.

I've read some guy bashing unauthorised copying and at the same time saying that libraries are much better because they bring him money as they purchase books. He made two errors - he didn't understand that there are many people who still want to have the original even after reading an unauthorised copy of an ebook and doesn't understand that it takes just one person resigning from a purchase because of the ability to get the original in a library to cancel out the financial benefit of selling books to the library and it takes just two such people to bring him "losses". And since I already stopped buying these books and started bringing the books that I have bought to libraries, I know that the "cancelling" already occurred. It just takes another person to start bringing "losses".

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/14/2011 8:07:44 AM

Terminus
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Good grief, this again?

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/14/2011 12:24:12 PM

E
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
So, here's a thread where we brag about how much money we stole from book authors.
Also, we celebrate our cultural and intellectual development by posting a list of the titles which we have read for free.
It's for piracy by libraries only.

quote:

ORIGINAL: E
Your taxes paid for them to be read.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
I didn't pay to read them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: E
I do not believe that you or anyone in your family, has never paid taxes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Okay. I pay...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Whenever they are free or not doesn't matter.

Too blatant an attempt at changing the subject. You're starting to sound like the infamous argument skit by Monty Python...

E: An argument isn't just contradiction.
P: It can be.
E: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
P: No it isn't.
E: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
P: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
E: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
P: Yes it is!
E: No it isn't!

*plonk*

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/14/2011 4:30:26 PM

Perturabo
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So, basically you're just being pedantic?

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/14/2011 8:03:30 PM

Orm
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In Sweden the Library do not just buy the book. They pay to a fund for each book each time it is borrowed from the library. The fund then pay the writers. The fund also distributes money to translators of literary works that are translated to or from the Swedish language and that is borrowed from the library.

As I understand it there are other countries who has similar systems. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Lending_Right

Here is a Swedish wiki page on how it works in Sweden. http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblioteksers%C3%A4ttning

Edit: I am glad that you use the library.

< Message edited by Orm -- 11/14/2011 8:05:39 PM >

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/14/2011 9:32:40 PM

Perturabo
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So, basically you have tax-funded book rentals in Sweden? How much do they pay per lending?

I can't imagine something like this functioning here due to financial reasons.

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/14/2011 10:40:58 PM

Orm
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2008 the Fund paid out about 7,034,600$.

Edit: So it isn't that much per book.

< Message edited by Orm -- 11/14/2011 10:44:24 PM >

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/14/2011 10:51:50 PM

Orm
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This subject has made me inspired. I think I will raid our library and get some of the books mentioned.

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/15/2011 2:02:58 AM

Obsolete
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Where I live, Libraries pay an extra fee to index a book, which is for the rights to allow multiple people to use that same book(s). So I'm not so sure libraries fall into the whole piracy thing, particularly since every author I know has even sent BOXES of books out to libraries to index in the first place.

Now, I know there are some who have accused second hand bookstores of piracy. But to be honest, almost all those books would end up in the dump anyhow if not deposited there, so which would you really prefer?

And this also reminds me of the old arguement on the MG forums where those who wait a few months after a computer game comes out (so the price drops), are just as bad as those who pirate the game. Since they are both defrauding the publisher.

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/15/2011 3:25:26 AM

Perturabo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

Where I live, Libraries pay an extra fee to index a book, which is for the rights to allow multiple people to use that same book(s). So I'm not so sure libraries fall into the whole piracy thing, particularly since every author I know has even sent BOXES of books out to libraries to index in the first place.

I guess, no one else will score any points in this game, then

. Hey, but why no one has posted any lists of book rented? I'm curious how much people read and what.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

Now, I know there are some who have accused second hand bookstores of piracy.

Crazy stuff.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

And this also reminds me of the old arguement on the MG forums where those who wait a few months after a computer game comes out (so the price drops), are just as bad as those who pirate the game.

Crazy stuff.

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RE: A book piracy thread 2011 - 11/15/2011 8:17:22 PM

Lützow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

That's why I believe that libraries are actually the most dangerous form of "piracy". They give people the originals to use. They target specifically the people who prefer to read the original book over reading an unauthorised ebook or something like that - the very people that would prefer to buy books over downloading them.

Dangerous for whom? For the copyright industry?

The whole internet is built upon free technology. Devoid of people willing to take "collateral damage" for voluntary sharing their knowledge and resources with the community, we propably would still hang out on BBS. How can you even utilize Linux and not bad feel about MS or Apple?

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RE: A book rental thread 2011 - 11/15/2011 9:56:20 PM

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I have recently read three books from the local library. I have bought two and will no doubt get the third. I hate not having good books I've read as part of my library at home. Okay I'm sad

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RE: A book rental thread 2011 - 11/15/2011 10:00:40 PM

Perturabo
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How much shelf space do you have? Do you tend to return to these books?

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RE: A book rental thread 2011 - 11/15/2011 10:05:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

How much shelf space do you have? Do you tend to return to these books?

Warspite1

Not enough

I suppose there are two types I've owned:

Reference books - well yes I return from time to time as required and will keep.

Other books - If I enjoyed the book then I will keep it, even if I know I probably wont read it again. If I haven't enjoyed it then I probably wont have finished it, in which case the book gets binned/sold or whatever.

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RE: A book rental thread 2011 - 11/16/2011 2:31:25 AM

Perturabo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

How much shelf space do you have? Do you tend to return to these books?

Warspite1

Not enough

I suppose there are two types I've owned:

Reference books - well yes I return from time to time as required and will keep.

Other books - If I enjoyed the book then I will keep it, even if I know I probably wont read it again. If I haven't enjoyed it then I probably wont have finished it, in which case the book gets binned/sold or whatever.

My shelves are already full. The worst thing is that second hand book stores are very picky about the books they accept and it's often hard to regain money from old books. I'm thinking about selling some of my comics, particularly the unfortunate Buck Rogers comic. I wonder if it will be possible. I was going to go to a comic book store/antiquary but I catched a nasty cold which keeps me grounded since 4th November.

Generally, I don't like when a book that I'm not going to read is sitting on my shelf so they often end up in the library even if I liked them. I usually keep stuff that is so awesome that I'll return to it or simply looks so good that I don't want to part it. From the books that I've rent this year, I'm considering buying Ernst Jünger - Storm of Steel and Martian Chronicles. Too bad there aren't any deluxe versions of these books.
I also want to buy Jan Gozdawa-Gołębiewski, Tadeusz Wywerka Prekurat - WWI on Sea as it's a huge book with lots of pictures.

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RE: A book rental thread 2011 - 12/2/2011 5:08:51 AM

yingxuy
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Then the fund to pay authors. The Fund has also distributed literary translators, translation or from the Swedish language, which is money borrowed from the library.

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RE: A book rental thread 2011 - 1/11/2012 1:06:15 PM

parusski
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quote:

ly buy books f

Where were we, I fell asleep reading this thre...

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RE: A book rental thread 2011 - 1/11/2012 2:38:36 PM

Perturabo
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I just as I have expected, my local library bought the Dance With Dragons

. A bit of patience and 45 PLN is saved

.

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RE: A book rental thread 2011 - 1/11/2012 5:10:34 PM

SuluSea
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This thread is trolling and if I read it correctly is trying to state that public libraries are piracy only in an effort for the OP to make him/herself feel better about their own pirating of software and other materials.

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RE: A book rental thread 2011 - 1/11/2012 6:13:58 PM

parusski
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From: Jackson Tn
Status: offline

SuluSea you may have a point. And it is odd that anyone would say that public libraries engage in piracy.

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RE: A book rental thread 2011 - 1/11/2012 6:27:15 PM

Perturabo
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Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

This thread is trolling and if I read it correctly is trying to state that public libraries are piracy only in an effort for the OP to make him/herself feel better about their own pirating of software and other materials.

Nah. It's an effort to make myself feel better about going to library

. After all, isn't it much more exciting, much more adventurous to visit a library not as a poor student but as a devilishly wicked book pirate

?
Isn't it much more satisfying to leave a library with wickedly stolen loot, not just with borrowed books

? Arrr!

And speaking of software and other materials, isn't it wonderfully perverse to buy them with money saved on not paying the authors of the books for reading them

? It's like I have paid for BftB, for other games and music and stuff like that with money pulled out of wallets of book writers

. Sadly apparently it doesn't work like that everywhere and in some places libraries now function as state-funded rentals, which takes away the romantic part of going to a library and leaves just the being poor part.

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

SuluSea you may have a point. And it is odd that anyone would say that public libraries engage in piracy.

Stephen King hates libraries since he became a writer because they decrease the amount of sales. I've read it in his book about writing and that's where I got that idea from. And personally, I used to buy a lot more books before I got into borrowing from libraries. Then I met a librarian which told me "why pay for books when you can borrow them from a library for free?" when I have told her that I have just bought the first The Witcher novel. Then as I used to buy a lot of books to read, I was borrowing whole series from the library. So, I have stopped spending my pocked money on books and could start spending almost all of it on music CDs.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 1/11/2012 6:44:49 PM >

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