Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Against the KB

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Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Against... - 11/19/2011 7:55:06 AM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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I have about 25 squadrons based at large bases (5-10 squadrons) in the operating area of the KB. The Argentinian Air Force is braver. There's no problem getting them to launch in air operations against land based. In 6-8 months of operations, they have never launched against the KB. It's almost like it has them paid off. What does it take to get LBA to launch against the KB? There wasn't any problem at Midway!

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

Post #: 1

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 8:45:53 AM

kfsgo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

I have about 25 squadrons based at large bases (5-10 squadrons) in the operating area of the KB. The Argentinian Air Force is braver. There's no problem getting them to launch in air operations against land based. In 6-8 months of operations, they have never launched against the KB. It's almost like it has them paid off. What does it take to get LBA to launch against the KB? There wasn't any problem at Midway!

Simple but obvious Q: are they doing their own naval search? I understand squadrons are significantly more likely to launch against targets they detect themselves.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 2

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 8:58:18 AM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kfsgo

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

I have about 25 squadrons based at large bases (5-10 squadrons) in the operating area of the KB. The Argentinian Air Force is braver. There's no problem getting them to launch in air operations against land based. In 6-8 months of operations, they have never launched against the KB. It's almost like it has them paid off. What does it take to get LBA to launch against the KB? There wasn't any problem at Midway!

Simple but obvious Q: are they doing their own naval search? I understand squadrons are significantly more likely to launch against targets they detect themselves.

There are a dozen dedicated search squadrons operating from the same bases. Perhaps the game doesn't model it that way, but doing your own search with nonspecialists is amateur night, especially when you need search arc coverage. Besides, this is eight months of play against an active but very large KB--10 carriers--operating in range on a regular basis and I believe one TBF squadron may have launched during that period.

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Post #: 3

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 8:58:35 AM

LoBaron

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From: Vienna, Austria
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Depends on KB�s DL, commander agg, naval attack skill, weather, range to target (and your range settings), available escorts (for non-HB), morale, fatigue.

Aggression rating is a key attribute, but everything above cumulates.

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Post #: 4

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 10:27:39 AM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Depends on KB�s DL

Usually 8-10/10

quote:

commander agg, naval attack skill

Lots of experienced squadrons with cherry-picked commanders

quote:

weather

The KB launches fine...

quote:

range to target (and your range settings)

usually 6-8

quote:

available escorts (for non-HB)

Usually a dozen squadrons with escort missions

quote:

morale, fatigue.

usually fine

quote:

Aggression rating is a key attribute, but everything above cumulates.

I think it's because the KB with 12 carriers and 500+ aircraft is a big enough gorilla that nothing will launch against it except fool-hardy carrier commanders. Definitely not USMC or USAAF commanders.

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Post #: 5

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 10:46:51 AM

inqistor

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There is some max range for night Naval Strikes, but I am guessing you are talking about day attacks.

What are altitudes? At high setting groups seem to launch very rarely.

But my first guess is KB CAP numbers.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 6

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 11:15:06 AM

LoBaron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

range to target (and your range settings)

usually 6-8

quote:

available escorts (for non-HB)

Usually a dozen squadrons with escort missions

Depending on the date of the war you are working at the extreme range of 90% of your escort fighters - or beyond.
Could be the centerline of your problem, who knows...

quote:

weather

quote:

The KB launches fine...

I am sure you are aware this does not mean anything.

To be honest, I am a bit tired of you seemingly asking for help without providing useful information that could hint where
the issue lies, or what checks you already did and what you ruled out. Usually your posts contain some vague information with the potential
to produce a 5 pager only because people try to guess what you have checked already and what not.

What makes me wonder is that I think your are quite bright, so I am at loss how you can fail to notice.

Heres a link to an example how to get maximum benefit out of asking questions, or at least a constructive discussion, suggest you read it:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2951011

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Post #: 7

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 2:23:28 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Heres a link to an example how to get maximum benefit out of asking questions, or at least a constructive discussion, suggest you read it:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2951011

Damian really does know how to frame and support a question doesn't he? Took me 20 minutes just to digest all the info ....

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Pax

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Post #: 8

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 3:02:49 PM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Heres a link to an example how to get maximum benefit out of asking questions, or at least a constructive discussion, suggest you read it:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2951011

Damian really does know how to frame and support a question doesn't he? Took me 20 minutes just to digest all the info ....

I've been a bit leery of being too open with my dispositions. I'll lay it out now that the KB is headed towards Efate from the NE.

I hit Tarawa with the slow battleships from Pearl, supported by my three heavy carriers, which had just finished a refit at Pearl. I had several replenishment groups, one headed towards Noumea from Pearl with a CVE, and three more operating between Noumea and Ndeni, each with a CVE. I was using the replenishment groups on the Ndeni CVEs as reinforcements for my Marine airgroups in the Ndeni/Kirakira/Rennell area since my F4Fs were dying like flies. My opponent spotted the Tarawa strike and sent out his KB deathstar from Truk (currently 10 carriers and all his fast BBs and CAs) in reaction. The slow BBs headed back to Pearl and the refitted carriers continued on towards Noumea. I have learned in a half dozen previous air-sea engagements in the Kirakira/Ndeni area that my land based air would never launch against the KB (air or surface component), allowing the KB air to stonk each base in turn, and also allowing the escorting heavy SAG to bombard each base in turn. In preparation for this round, I laid lots of mines at each of the bases and really stuffed the area (Rennell, Kirakira, Auki, Ndeni, Luganville, and Efate) with air. I have a dozen PBY squadrons, a PB4Y and a PB4Y-R squadron, about 300 F4Fs, 25 P39s, 75+ TBFs, 150+ SBDs, two B-26 squadrons, two Hudson squadrons, and a bunch of support squadrons. He cut down behind the Ndeni/Luganville/Efate line trying to nail my carriers (I also have six SAGs operating with the carriers) and is currently approaching Efate from the NE, which is where he last spotted my carriers. None of my land-based air has been active during this debacle. I'm currently setting up a trap at Efate with my carriers just south of Noumea, supported by about half my land-based air, with the other half operating out of Ndeni and Luganville to hit him if he heads north.

It appears to me that the game engine treats the air strength of the KB (500-600 aircraft) as making it invulnerable to even the thought of an attack. What really bothers me is that I outnumber him 2-1 in air in the area, but my land-based contingent is completely passive.

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Post #: 9

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 3:30:59 PM

Canoerebel

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I've heard this question asked by both sides in various games and AARs. One player will have a massive amount of LBA and carrier air within range of a juicy enemy carrier TF...and no launch, or else measley small and dispersed launches that are frustratingly ineffective.

From what I've seen, range to target is the main factor. If you see enemy carriers and you want your carriers to attack with a nice assist from LBA, you've got to close. Six or eight hexes is distant enough to just provoke frustration. But close to two to four hexes and the problem is solved.

Of course, it's not always possible to close with the enemy, but that's part of the game. Working to try for such opportunities...or workig to avoid them.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 10

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 4:37:19 PM

Alfred

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It has been commented on often in the AE forum that bombers (excluding 4E) are most unlikely to launch if they lack sufficient fighter escorts to deal with enemy CAP. A KB of 10 carriers carries a lot of CAP.

Herwin has only 300 Wildcats and 25 Aircobras in theatre. Even if every single one of those fighters was tasked only with escort duties, he might still find the KB has more fighters on CAP. But all those Wildcats and Aircobras are not available for escort duties because:

(a) some will be on CAP duties, perhaps some are resting etc.

(b) he expects the bombers to strike a KB which is coming no closer than 6-8 hexes to his airfields but that range is beyond the capability of his fighters to fly. Only with drop tanks, if available, will the Wildcats alone have the range to escort the bombers. Then the question becomes are drop tanks available, both in terms of date and whether there are sufficient supplies present at the airfields.

Alfred

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 11

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 5:25:06 PM

Sardaukar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It has been commented on often in the AE forum that bombers (excluding 4E) are most unlikely to launch if they lack sufficient fighter escorts to deal with enemy CAP. A KB of 10 carriers carries a lot of CAP.

Herwin has only 300 Wildcats and 25 Aircobras in theatre. Even if every single one of those fighters was tasked only with escort duties, he might still find the KB has more fighters on CAP. But all those Wildcats and Aircobras are not available for escort duties because:

(a) some will be on CAP duties, perhaps some are resting etc.

(b) he expects the bombers to strike a KB which is coming no closer than 6-8 hexes to his airfields but that range is beyond the capability of his fighters to fly. Only with drop tanks, if available, will the Wildcats alone have the range to escort the bombers. Then the question becomes are drop tanks available, both in terms of date and whether there are sufficient supplies present at the airfields.

Alfred

Alfred nailed it again, as usually.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

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Post #: 12

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 8:26:24 PM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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To continue the narrative, the KB decides to head north rather than south into the trap. The night air rules play to the Allied advantage, and for the first time in (my) experience, black cats launch, and of the ten PBY squadrons, twelve aircraft make attacks through severe storms!!!

Night Air attack on TF, near Vanikoro at 123,145

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Allied aircraft
�� PBY-5A Catalina x 6

Allied aircraft losses
�� PBY-5A Catalina: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
�� CVL Shoho
�� CLAA Tenryu

Aircraft Attacking:
�� 6 x PBY-5A Catalina launching torpedoes at 200 feet
�� Naval Attack:� 2 x 22.4in Mk 13 Torp.

---------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on TF, near Vanikoro at 123,145

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 18 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Allied aircraft
�� PBY-5 Catalina x 3

Allied aircraft losses
�� PBY-5 Catalina: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
�� BB Kongo

Aircraft Attacking:
�� 3 x PBY-5 Catalina launching torpedoes at 200 feet
�� Naval Attack:� 2 x 22.4in Mk 13 Torp.

---------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on TF, near Vanikoro at 123,145

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 47 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Allied aircraft
�� PBY-5A Catalina x 3

Allied aircraft losses
�� PBY-5A Catalina: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
�� BB Haruna

Aircraft Attacking:
�� 3 x PBY-5A Catalina launching torpedoes at 200 feet
�� Naval Attack:� 2 x 22.4in Mk 13 Torp.

And so in the morning, the KB is observed sailing sedately just to the north of Ndeni as thousands of American airmen wave from the shore. Ndeni has about 200 operational aircraft including about 80 fighters. Neither side launches. My question is 'where are the diminishing returns to scale that led both navies to use right-sized CVTFs'.

The first time I played D-Day against my brother--soon after the first release--neither of us noticed the stacking rules, and the campaign was decided when a stack of all the Allied units attacked a stack of all the German units. This game reminds me of that.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by herwin -- 11/19/2011 8:49:58 PM >

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Post #: 13

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 8:42:50 PM

jeffs

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What did you do for search/settings to get the black cats to attack?

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political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 14

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 8:44:31 PM

Richard III

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In WitP there was extensive discussions, which included some of the Devs, on what the AI checks were for LBA to launch against a carrier TF.

While that may have changed when the Dev team changed for AE, and with all the Air routines changes (and Beta if used ) in AE, FWIW they were back then:

Supply level in the AB hex. (Lots more was better )
High morale level of the attack & escort Sq`s.
Low fatigue level of the attack and escort Sq`s. ( this seemed one of the keys )
Pilot experience ( usually never launched Naval Strikes unless Sq. exp. average in at least the high `60`s - low `70`s)
Within the escorts range.

At least 10 % of _each_ of the attack Sq. set on Naval Search (This was key, and may still be )

Even though your an experienced Vet, I found this very useful in learning the differences from WitP, and changing my bad habits & tricks acquired in the old game.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2260137

PS: Does your opponent really sail KB around with 12 CV`s in the same hex...

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 15

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 8:57:33 PM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffs

What did you do for search/settings to get the black cats to attack?

2 night search squadrons covering a sector centered on the known position of the KB. The day search consisted of 2 PBY squadrons, 1 PB4Y, 1 PB4Y-R, and a number of my SBD squadrons set for 20% local search. I was actually preparing for a major day air battle near Efate. I had a number of light SAGs positioned to react the previous night, betting I could mess up the Japanese dispositions for the morning battle. I left 300 aircraft in the north, most at Ndeni, including my black cats, which were ordered naval attack at night. In the south, I had 261 aircraft on my carriers and about 550 on various land bases.

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Post #: 16

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 9:04:04 PM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

In WitP there was extensive discussions, which included some of the Devs, on what the AI checks were for LBA to launch against a carrier TF.

While that may have changed when the Dev team changed for AE, and with all the Air routines changes (and Beta if used ) in AE, FWIW they were back then:

Supply level in the AB hex. (Lots more was better )

80,000+ at Ndeni.

quote:

High morale level of the attack & escort Sq`s.

In the 90s.

quote:

Low fatigue level of the attack and escort Sq`s. ( this seemed one of the keys )

Yes.

quote:

Pilot experience ( usually never launched Naval Strikes unless Sq. exp. average in at least the high `60`s - low `70`s)

Pretty much. These squadrons had been active in the Solomons.

quote:

Within the escorts range.

3 hexes?

quote:

At least 10 % of _each_ of the attack Sq. set on Naval Search (This was key, and may still be )

The SBDs were on naval search. This, by the way, was not SOP.

quote:

Even though your an experienced Vet, I found this very useful in learning the differences from WitP, and changing my bad habits & tricks acquired in the old game.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2260137

PS: Does your opponent really sail KB around with 12 CV`s in the same hex...

Yes, escorted by his fast battleships and most of his heavy cruisers. I think he currently is running 10 CVs after the Zuikaku and Hiryu had unpleasant encounters with night bombers and submarines.

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Post #: 17

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/19/2011 9:48:44 PM

Skyros

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Airfield size is key if they are over stacked, also do you have an air hq present and in airfield range.

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RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/20/2011 12:01:41 AM

topeverest

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From: Houston, TX - USA
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I'd tend to agree the biggest things probably are the fighter range combined with the number of available American fighters at that range. IME, LBA doenst tend to fly in the face of enemy fighter superiority. Got any P38's available? Seems odd you are not getting ample drop tanks for your F4F's. I'd pulse as many fighters on escort as you dare that can reach the 8 hexes and go for gold. I'd keep it simple and use one base if possible.

You also could take the cheaters way out...off load some CV compliment for a free attack. I've had bad luck coodinating USA and USN squadrons, so I tend not to combine.

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RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/20/2011 8:04:46 AM

herwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Airfield size is key if they are over stacked, also do you have an air hq present and in airfield range.

All A-OK. This campaign has been going on for 6-8 months.

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RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/20/2011 10:45:18 AM

ny59giants

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Another issue that you may be having is the command of each of your air units. It works better to get strikes to go out if they are all assigned the same Air HQ or just use two Air HQs with the air units assigned to them. Finally, look at the leader of the Air HQs being used. I have a list of Air HQs and as I buy out Restricted air units, keep a list so it makes sense further into the game.

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Post #: 21

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/20/2011 2:09:09 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Another issue that you may be having is the command of each of your air units. It works better to get strikes to go out if they are all assigned the same Air HQ or just use two Air HQs with the air units assigned to them. Finally, look at the leader of the Air HQs being used. I have a list of Air HQs and as I buy out Restricted air units, keep a list so it makes sense further into the game.

Are we sure about this? Several times it has been stated that unit HQ's have no impact in the game, strictly flavour.

Alfred - appreciate your insights here. Thanks.

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Pax

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Post #: 22

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/20/2011 3:30:29 PM

Erkki

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You might want to ask Andy - he just managed to launch under-escorted raid of B-25 and some other bombers against PzB's KB at maximum(I think?) range. And apparently at first try.

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Post #: 23

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/20/2011 5:01:53 PM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

I�ve wondered many times why my opponent has never tried stonking Noumea and the Australian bases. There would be no opposition in the air.

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Post #: 24

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/20/2011 6:08:21 PM

Puhis

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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Another issue that you may be having is the command of each of your air units. It works better to get strikes to go out if they are all assigned the same Air HQ or just use two Air HQs with the air units assigned to them. Finally, look at the leader of the Air HQs being used. I have a list of Air HQs and as I buy out Restricted air units, keep a list so it makes sense further into the game.

Are we sure about this? Several times it has been stated that unit HQ's have no impact in the game, strictly flavour.

Specific land HQs don't matter, any HQ can do the job... But air HQs are different matter, air units should be assigned to nearest HQ. Air HQs help coordinate strikes, increse number of bombers flying etc.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 25

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/21/2011 1:56:07 AM

Chickenboy

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My two bits to the discussion:

A fighter is not necessarily a fighter. For maximal USAAF coordination, you cannot rely on USMC, USN, Australian, NZ, British or other non-USAAF fighter / bomber coordination. Thus, if you have a bunch of overstacked 'mixed breed' air forces comingled, your coordination / launch will suffer or not exist at all.

I agree with the other observations regarding overstacking, air HQ presence / leadership aggressiveness, DL, distance, fighter coverage, weather, etc. etc. too.

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Post #: 26

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/21/2011 5:49:36 AM

jeffs

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From: Tokyo
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Also...One should consider having some 4E bombers go in....The will of course do nothing to the ships....But they are great at damaging large amounts of zeroes.....Maybe at first the KB has ultra cap...
But not after tangling with 40-60 B-17Es, Fs and B-24s....

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Post #: 27

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/21/2011 10:51:18 AM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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I tried a night attack with everything I had. Nothing hit, but there were minimal losses, and at least my aircraft attacked. I asked my opponent why he didn't take advantage of the fact that nothing would launch during the day against the massed KB, and simply stonk all my bases. He indicated his tactics were more sophisticated. He monitors all my ports watching for shipping loading or unloading troops. When he spots that, the KB sorties. During the unloading/loading the ships are frozen and he kills them safely and at his leisure.

I think we have an exploit.

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Post #: 28

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/21/2011 11:07:21 AM

Sardaukar

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Just funny note..but when I see this thread abbreviated from main forum as "RE: Advice Needed: Getting La .."..my first thought was not Land-Based bombers...

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Post #: 29

RE: Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Aga... - 11/21/2011 11:18:44 AM

CT Grognard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

The Argentinian Air Force is braver.

Don't sell the FAA short!

They sortied 430 times on attack missions...sinking two destroyers, two frigates, a RFA landing ship, a container ship, and in addition damaging another two destroyers, six frigates, three RFA landing ships and a fleet stores ship...

...they might have been totally outclassed by the Sea Harriers in air-to-air combat, but their attack pilots still had teeth.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 30

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> Advice Needed: Getting Land-Based Air to Launch Against the KB

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