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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop (J) vs CF (A)

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/15/2011 1:46:47 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I'm in mid-August and I have both the 1st and 2nd Marines re-combined and elements of three more Marine divisions. I have 3 infantry divisions and some regiments bought out along with a few of my Kiwi friends. The Allies have very few APs to use and needs the slow unloading xAPs for any invasions. I've had to put back into action those APs that convert to APA in '43 to use. I hope not to lose many.
.....

I think its a good question ny59giants because you center the conversaton not around the PP's to buy stuff, but the real constraint on operations -- the number of AP's and AK's along with the willingness to use these valuable assets.

To drop an Army Dvision in one turn on the atoll Tarawa in Apr '42 I did have to use 13 AP's and two AK's. I followed with with 4 AP's and 4 AK's with BF's and supplies. With this configuration and using the BIG AK's one can drop a USA division and 25K supplies in one turn. That meant also that all of this was marshaled waiting for the opporunity including preping for the invasion.

In my game we shall see how long they last exposed to naval and air bombardment. One month later I have 19K supplies on a lonely atoll. That is teh other allied consideration. If the AFB opens up a front before March '43 the IJ can respond in kind very rapidly and isolate those forces.

< Message edited by Crackaces -- 11/15/2011 1:48:40 PM >

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/15/2011 1:54:19 PM

Mike Solli

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Cribtop, things sound very good right now.

Question for you: Why are you transferring the 90 Reg to Munda Point? Is that base that significant for you? The 90 Reg is a wonderful unit. As you did, I usually send it to the SE Fleet area for initial invasions of Rabaul and PM. After that, I keep it as a reserve force. It has the ability to make a difference even though it is only a regiment.

The invasion of Pt. Hedland is a nice move. In my last game, I never got it and my opponent used it to very good effect basing surface raiders and bombers to be used to the east against my beachhead in Australia.

Which divisions (in addition to the 5th) are landing in China?

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/15/2011 4:34:30 PM

Cribtop

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Mike,

Good question. Munda is a key base for me as my plan is to garrison and fortify, but not improve, Tulagi and Milne Bay. Intention is to absorb CF's initial invasion and use a series of built up bases in the middle Solomons, NG, and Bougainville to make life hard for the Allies once they land. As such, Munda is fortified and about to make level 4 airfield. It contains an Air HQ and is a Netty nest with the potential to throw in Vals for good measure. Thus, 90th Regt is an appropriate garrison here. My SE Fleet local reserve is provided by 20th Division at Truk.

In China we have two Manchukuo divisions (14th and 29th I think) that have been bought into Southern Army. We also have 3 divisions assigned to 13th Army near Kanshien. The 4 "Java" divisions are 2nd, 5th, 38th and one I can't remember. I'll check tonight. They are all crack. 17th Army HQ is at Canton and will advance in conjunction with 23rd Army HQ.

As to things going well, I confess I'm thrilled at how we've used interior lines in central China to frustrate CF, and the timing of this latest move is perfect. Success is far from certain - there are a lot of Chinamen and we are under a time crunch. My greatest fear all along was that CF would see my weakness in Southern China and move in strength on Amoy or Wenchow. Fortunately he did not do so.

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/18/2011 7:04:34 PM

Cribtop

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June 12, 1942

A snafu caused by me forgetting to send CF a turn I already processed and him being too sick to let me know about it caused a short hiatus. We are back on track now and off the dungeon of Page 2.

Subs

I-25 shoots at two separate DDs just off San Francisco rather than trying its luck at the huge convoys brimming with xAKs and TKs. Genius. The sub gets a penetrating DC hit in return and will slink back to Kwaj in shame. The sub targeting routines really need a tweak as one juicy target after another sails by while we miss nimble DDs. It affects CF equally, but it's frustrating to time a convoy arrival perfectly and get nothing to show for it. We do get intel, however, namely confirmation that CF is running a small number of large convoys for supplies and fuel. This should be good news when the CVE Raiders head out soon.

4th Fleet, SE Fleet, 14th Army

No change.

16th Army

Nells from Koepang hammer the Port Hedland base force and then our naval guard unit takes the base easily. We will unload a base force of our own tomorrow and then retire to safer environs. Lomblen makes level 4 airfield.

25th Army

Bengkalis invaded. We confirm that the enemy was wiped off the map here by our elite Helen/Lilly II air wing. Those bombers are now moving to China.

15th Army

1st Raiding regiment drops into Ramree Island (which we already owned) to provide a stopgap garrison until footsloggers can arrive. Weather here today is so bad that not even recon flights take off.

China

We beat the Wuchang stack to the hex east of Changsha. Now we will use an armored car unit to try to close the enemy out if he continues to retire this way. We will unload 4 divisions at Canton tomorrow. The countdown to Red Dragon is now only a matter of days. Timing for the offensive seems ideal, but you never know.

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/18/2011 9:11:16 PM

princep01

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Crib, you may be right about the programming tweak on sub target selection. However, it sometimes occurred that the DDs or other escorts detected a sub before it could get into firing position on the convoy merchants. I have always assumed it to be the case that the sub was firing at the escort in self preservation when it "chose" to fire at an escort. In other words, the escort did its job and stopped the sub from attacking the convoy. Perhaps this is wrong, but that was the way I interpreted this action.

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/18/2011 9:33:24 PM

Cribtop

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I actually agree with this interpretation for some of the escort attacks as it surely happened IRL. However, when I see a 20 ship convoy with 2 DDs and the sub still goes after an escort far more often than not things start to look fishy to me.

PS - Mike Solli recently asked the identity of the fourth division heading to China. It's the 16th. I had trouble remembering that one 'cause I just re-formed it on Java - it starts split up.

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/18/2011 9:43:20 PM

Mike Solli

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Thanks Cribtop. You definitely have an elite force going into China. That should get CF squirming.

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 4:44:45 PM

Cribtop

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June 13, 1942

Quietest... Turn... Ever...

There is so little to say that I'll just say it fast. We occupy Bengkalis with all 40 Oil intact (tankers are there already to begin loading). Daly Waters makes level 3 forts. We begin to unload at Canton.

That's all, folks!

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 7:31:29 PM

Cribtop

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Interlude

Canton, China. June 14, 1942.

Lieutenant General Hyakatuke Harukichi, Commanding Officer, 17th Army, stood on a balcony overlooking the sprawling docks of Canton. Most of the harbor was filled with junks, riverboats and small merchant ships, but today the main port of entry was reserved entirely to the Imperial Japanese Army. One large transport after another tied up, disgorged its living cargo, and then moved on. The process had been ongoing since well before dawn. Men and equipment queued up and marched deeper into the City, and from there all the way to temporary camps on the outskirts of the Chinese countryside. This was no parade for his benefit. The men flowed by with the nanchalant purpose of veterans who knew their business and were seeing to it. Four crack divisions would unload today, and another would arrive tomorrow. These were the cream of the IJA, the conquerors of Hong Kong, Singapore, Java, Burma and Australia. None of the Allied armies had been able to halt their inexorable advance over the Southern Resource Area. Symbolically, the transport convoy for these forces had just yesterday passed a large tanker convoy bound for Japan with captured Dutch Oil from Sumatra to feed the Imperial war machine. Hyakatuke was well pleased with the forces assigned to him for the upcoming attack on Southern China, but the scope of the operation concerned him.

As if he could hear his commander's thoughts, Hyakatuke's Chief of Staff, Major General Akisaburo Futami spoke. "That would be the 2nd Division already. Progress is a bit ahead of schedule so far, Sir. I am also pleased to report that the supply convoy has radioed in and will make port within 48 hours. Furthermore, the 7th Bomber Wing's air groups are staging from Hainan Island this morning, so air support should be ready. Operation Red Dragon should be able to commence as planned. We can almost walk the men off the ships and directly into battle at Wuchow. 13th and 23rd Armies also report ready to commence the attack. It would appear that everything is arranged."

Hyakatuke smiled at this ten thousandth recitation of his Chief of Staff's favorite phrase. The man believed that war consisted of moving enough bullets and rice bags from point A to point B. Then again, moving rice was his job, and there was some truth to the idea that logistics won battles. "What of aerial recon?" asked the Commander.

"Latest reports show all target cities still lightly held, particularly Wuchow and Kweilin," said Akisaburo.

"I will grudgingly admit that Imperial General Headquarters planned this Op well, and that surprise is likely, but it won't last. There are vast, uncommitted Chinese Armies in the interior that will react," replied Hyakatuke.

Akisaburo looked pensive. "But keeping the enemy's reserves occupied is the purpose of the northern pincer, yes?"

"Correct, but the sheer size of the enemy's forces could allow him to block all of our advances under the right circumstances," said Hyakatuke.

"Sir, don't forget our qualitative advantages. It is no exaggeration to say that each of our men is worth ten of the Kuomintang."

"True enough. That leaves me with only one thing to worry about," mused Hyakatuke.

"What is that, General?"

"The eleventh Chinaman, Futami."

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 11/19/2011 8:43:28 PM >

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 7:37:15 PM

Mike Solli

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This is exciting, Cribtop. Can you post a map showing your intent with Operation Red Dragon? Anything else of interest too, such as ground and air OOBs and anything else. Thanks!

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 7:43:08 PM

Cribtop

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Well, Mike, if I've gotten you jazzed about something other than the production system then my AAR has officially done its job.

Here is North & Central China.

1 - 5 Divisions, approximately 2200 AV, will crash over the river at the hex indicated, which is lightly defended. Intention is to cut off the larger KMT stack in the mountains and threaten Kienko in order to force CF to commit his strategic reserve at Chunkging here. Note that 32 LCUs are still trapped at Tienshui and slowly starving.

2 - The ongoing chaos in Central China is mostly a diversion. The hex on the right has 2 trapped KMT corps. CF was trying to rescue them with a 14 LCU stack, now in the middle hex, when we slipped about 900 AV behind him in the hex on the right, cutting him off from Changsha.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 11/19/2011 7:56:33 PM >

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 7:46:19 PM

Mike Solli

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Thanks! No one realizes that I really like the tactical, operational and strategic part of the game as well.

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 7:57:09 PM

Cribtop

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You're just so much better than us at logistics we all get jealous.

Here is the meat of the offensive in Southern China.

1 - 17th and 23rd Armies, leading Six crack divisions (4 from Java, 2 slightly less elite divisions from Manchukuo) will attack out of Canton toward Wuchow, Kweilin and Liuchow. These targets are lightly defended (for example, there is only 1 LCU at Kweilin). The exact march path will depend on circumstances, but the arrows give an idea. This pincer will move as far up the good road out of Liuchow as possible. Intention is to isolate the entire Changsha front. I don't know whether CF will let us get to Kweiyang. If he does, that's the ultimate goal. If not, we can go on the defensive at Liuchow and use the good road out of Kweilin to descend on the 3 cities near Changsha, which are held by 1 LCU each. The strategic goal of the Op is to capture as much of south and central China as possible in order to cripple China's industry and allow us to shift lots of troops to the perimeter in the Pacific, DEI and Burma.

2 - 2 Divisions under 13th Army, 100% prepped for Kanshien, will advance toward that strongly held city, while another restricted division marches on Canton to serve as operational reserve. Intention here is to either pin the enemy's Kanshien stack (11 LCUs) or to grab the city if CF tries to maneuver against the flank of our main advance and thus prevent interference there.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 11/19/2011 8:05:45 PM >

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 8:12:57 PM

Cribtop

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A little bit of ancillary data.

Air groups. We have the elite Helen/Lily II wing that recently destroyed an enemy unit on the ground at Bengkalis in 1 day at Canton, supported by Oscars. In central China, we have a horde of Lily Is and Oscars. Some of them may shift south or even north to Sian to support the northern pincer. Air support points from base forces is an issue, but we have done what we can.

Supply. A special convoy of 150K supply is just now passing south of Takao en route for Canton to support the offensive. They are likely to return to Tokyo and re-load.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 11/19/2011 8:14:05 PM >

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 8:17:42 PM

Mike Solli

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Interesting. Have you considered the possibility of using paratroopers to try to take Kweilin and cut the rail line and potential reinforcements? I'm beginning to think in a 3 dimensional way to work out new ways to tackle old problems that our adversaries are already aware we are going to do. Once you take the town, you can fly in reinforcements to help defend the joint.

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 8:20:36 PM

Cribtop

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Hehe. Funny you should mention it. We have a para unit and transports standing by. I don't think by themselves they could take a city defended by even 1 KMT LCU, but the idea is to keep them in reserve and drop them on whatever base CF makes his MLR in order to obtain the AV halving effect at the key juncture.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 11/19/2011 8:21:29 PM >

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 8:41:16 PM

Mike Solli

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That AV halving effect doesn't exist. I got that straight from the horse's mouth (either Andy Mac or michaelm, can't remember which).

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 8:42:42 PM

Mike Solli

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It was Andy. Here's his response to the question of whether or not a paratrooper landing cuts defending AV in half:

"As far as I am aware does not halve defender AV but does force a bombardment attack by defender."

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 8:46:44 PM

Cribtop

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Well, crap. Still, I'm glad you shared this with me so I won't rely on it. In that case I will bomb Kweilin to see exactly what's there. If it's just a base force we may have a go with a full on airborn assault.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 11/19/2011 8:47:36 PM >

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 9:07:23 PM

Mike Solli

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Yeah, I'm sure an airborne unit can take on a Chinese BF. I'd have a brigade or regiment available to reinforce as well. Those roads there are slow going. The paratroopers might have to stay awhile.

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 9:59:16 PM

jrcar

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First bring Armour, as much as you can. This decimates Chinese units and they can't fight back effectively against it.

Agree with the 3rd dimension, I'm a big fan of striking deep and interdicting using paras.

Finally Japanese doctrine should see small flanking units (or ocasionally a big one) seeking the flank and rear of defended locations in support of the main frontal attack.

Agree with bringing in supply to help, this is where the Japanese player can accept casulties and wear down the massed Chinese over a series of days. The Japanese supply advantage can replace the casulties, which the Chinese can't.

Cheers

Rob

Good luck!

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/19/2011 10:17:31 PM

Cribtop

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Thanks Rob. Armor and flanking has been my bread and butter in China so far. I call it the "Joe Johnston" war after the North Georgia campaign where Sherman flanked Johnston out of one position after another. I've got a goodly number of tanks for combat and armored car units for flanking.

As to the paras, I guess even a failed drop at Kweilin would cut the rail line so long as the para unit survives. Hmmm.

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/20/2011 7:59:41 PM

Capt. Harlock

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quote:

I call it the "Joe Johnston" war after the North Georgia campaign where Sherman flanked Johnston out of one position after another.

True -- and yet Johnston always seemed to have another position to fall back to. Let's see if Cuttlefish has his fall-backs planned as well.

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/20/2011 8:56:15 PM

Cribtop

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I suspect he will. This is the rare situation where terrain is of strategic importance. The question will be how much supply-generating capacity I can occupy or isolate before the offensive culminates. Should be a fun ride!

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/20/2011 9:04:38 PM

Mike Solli

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Oh yeah. Does CF have the turn right now?

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/20/2011 9:07:04 PM

Cribtop

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June 14, 1942

Another super quiet day, which suits Cribtop HQ fine at the moment. In my e-mail to Cuttles he mentioned that he and Erstad once had a turn so quiet that the combat report was blank! I joked they were just giving peace a chance.

Subs

Most subs are at or near the gathering bases. We will refit and launch flotilla wolfpacks soon.

4th Fleet

No change.

SE Fleet

90th Regiment begins to unload at Munda Point.

14th Army

No change.

16th Army

Babar occupied by rowboat.

25th Army

MKB moves toward the straits between Palawan and Borneo. The CVs will be transferred next turn to operational control of SE Fleet although they will refit for a time at Babeldoab.

15th Army

We continue to feed reinforcements into this AO and are awaiting a better moon for an effort at Chittagong.

China

We begin to unload at Canton. Time is of the essence.

CF has marched an LCU into the isolated hex in central China discussed in the recent screenie. This is fine as we want him focused here and not elsewhere.

5th Fleet

Amchitka makes level 2 airfield. Building is slow here as we don't want to waste construction units on a strictly defensive theater.

Other

We are preparing a huge supply convoy at Tokyo that will be used to dump supply at Singers for general purposes and at specific bases where industry is to be repaired or expanded. We will repair Oil and increase some HI as suggested recently by nygiants and Mike Solli.

Also a question. What is the optimal use of construction engineers? Don't worry about ports and airfield levels, I'm strictly talking forts. I have 3 unit groups working perimeter bases with the idea they will slowly build rear bases as they finish the front line. Should you build to level 4 forts or all the way to 6 (assuming we aren't talking about the few bases you want to go to level 9)? What is the best balance between maximum defense for each base and maximum number of built up bases? Obviously organic engineers would continue to work on forts at a slower base if we stop below 6. Thoughts?

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 11/20/2011 9:13:26 PM >

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/20/2011 9:14:31 PM

Cribtop

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Oh yeah. Does CF have the turn right now?

Yes, but it will take another day or so to unload and then a few more to march on Wuchow, so the fireworks won't start tomorrow, really.

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/21/2011 1:08:41 AM

jrcar

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quote:

Also a question. What is the optimal use of construction engineers? Don't worry about ports and airfield levels, I'm strictly talking forts. I have 3 unit groups working perimeter bases with the idea they will slowly build rear bases as they finish the front line. Should you build to level 4 forts or all the way to 6 (assuming we aren't talking about the few bases you want to go to level 9)? What is the best balance between maximum defense for each base and maximum number of built up bases? Obviously organic engineers would continue to work on forts at a slower base if we stop below 6. Thoughts?

"clusters" of 2-3 well built bases (within 2 hex, preferably 1 hex) separated by 6-8 hex (allows fighters from one cluster to support another) to upto 12-14 (allows escorted strikes). Basically a strong point defence. Build them to level 6 forts IMHO.

Level 6 airfields appear optimal, although 7 are nice. Ports are less critical as the Japanese as you don't have the heavy baggage that the Allies do in their divisions (all those Ice cream machines).

This does allow the Allies to land in the "gaps", but then they have to build them up from almost nothing... which they can do but they are vulnerable and they need to commit significant assets during this phase. Ultimately you can't really stop the Allies, so you want to inflict delay on them at every step.

A nice "chequer" style defence in depth is possible in the DEI and SWPAC, but CENTPAC is a bit harder to achieve.

As Japan I think you need to create as much depth to the defence as possible, a hard, but thin crust is easily broken, depth give tactical and operational advantages for the counter attack.

Cheers
Rob

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/21/2011 4:32:57 AM

Cribtop

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Agreed in principle. I guess I'm just getting a little nervous at how long it takes 3 IJA construction units to build up to level 6. The first 3 levels come quickly but then it takes longer for 4-6. Is it better to use 4 engineer units? 5? 6? Is there an optimum number of engineer squads to assign to build up to level 6 forts as quickly as possible is the question.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 11/21/2011 4:33:54 AM >

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RE: Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop ... - 11/21/2011 5:35:05 AM

ny59giants

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Of course the more engineers the better.

As Japan, I like to use about 150 engineers for what you are trying to do. Look for your Ind Eng Rgt. Many start in Manchuria. If doing island bases, ship them in, do what needs to be done and then move on.

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(in reply to Cribtop)

Post #: 900

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