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Sell Me This Game - 11/20/2011 8:14:59 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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OK. I have a 50% off coupon to use and WitE is one of the games I'm considering using it toward. Trouble is, I'm thinking this game will be hell to learn. Secondly I'm really more into single player than I am into multi. Is WitE any good in single player? How difficult is it to learn.

Thirdly, what is it like to play? What are some of the features of it that set it apart from say The Operational Art of War or the Decisive Battle's Series?

Fourthly is there a demo for WitE?

Thanks for helping me decide!

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/20/2011 8:29:24 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Hey Gary, long time no see you

We should compare the game with WitP (which you already know). It's a monster à la WitP but less complex (or more abstract if you prefer: air war, logistics, you don't need to micromanage them), so this should not scare you.

All I know is I read the manual twice, played 6 turns vs the Fascist AI and then started PBEM. So far so good. Just like with WitP, it helps if you know the conflict, doctrines, plans, etc.

Really a great game

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 11/20/2011 8:30:12 PM >


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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/20/2011 9:18:23 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Hey Gary, long time no see you

We should compare the game with WitP (which you already know). It's a monster à la WitP but less complex (or more abstract if you prefer: air war, logistics, you don't need to micromanage them), so this should not scare you.

All I know is I read the manual twice, played 6 turns vs the Fascist AI and then started PBEM. So far so good. Just like with WitP, it helps if you know the conflict, doctrines, plans, etc.

Really a great game


Nice to see a familiar face! Well I went ahead and purchased WitE. Someone in the Unity of Command forum pointed out that UoC is only $30. I'd rather save $45 than $15.

Anyway I must really commend Matrix on it's generosity. I got the 50% off coupon when my Panzer Corps DLCs were shipped late. The Panzer Corps expansions were only $15 for me so this was an amazing Christmas gift! Matrix can ship my boxed copies late any day!

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/20/2011 9:34:56 PM   
Q-Ball


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It's fun, and not as involved as WITP-AE.

You can also potentially finish a game in less than a year, since turns are a week apiece.

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/20/2011 9:39:23 PM   
CarnageINC


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Bravo on your purchase!  You made a great move, this game is very much like WitP/AE and you'll get it down in no time.  Like WitP just as on the forum for any help and I'm sure you'll get it in a timely manner  
To answer some of your questions, first off, like TD said learning really isn't a problem.  Second, single player is very good for both sides, is nothing like WitP where you get some crazy moves or attacks.  The AI obviously isn't as great as a opponent but it does a good enough job till you get the pbem itch !


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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/20/2011 10:47:17 PM   
Q-Ball


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Thing about WITP, you can play for literally years, and lose the game in an afternoon. While more exciting IMO, that's also kind of a big time investment to have the whole war come down to a few bomb hits either way. But that's CV warfare.

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/21/2011 1:33:01 AM   
Schmart

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
OK. I have a 50% off coupon to use and WitE is one of the games I'm considering using it toward. Trouble is, I'm thinking this game will be hell to learn. Secondly I'm really more into single player than I am into multi. Is WitE any good in single player? How difficult is it to learn.


Personally, I found the manual and all the rules a little intimidating at first, but if you've ever played any hex based board wargames, WitE is surprisingly intuitive to play. Just start pushing counters around the board, launch some attacks, and away you go. For the most part, the game is playable without too much micromanagement, but the micromanagement is there for those who want it. The AI is surprisingly competent, and the difficulty levels are customizable, so you can find your own specific level.

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/21/2011 3:37:52 AM   
76mm


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I can't really agree that the AI is very good, at least the AI-controlled Germans once you get past 1941.

I've played two GCs as Sov, and both times the AI completely collapsed in 1942 (during the first game, Berlin fell in Sep 1942). The second game was on Challenging, and the AI did quite well in 1941, reaching the gates of Lgrad and Moscow, and played a credible blizzard, but then collapsed. The AI does not seem to understand how to play defense unless it can create the six-deep carpets as Sov.

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/21/2011 4:33:50 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I can't really agree that the AI is very good, at least the AI-controlled Germans once you get past 1941.

I've played two GCs as Sov, and both times the AI completely collapsed in 1942 (during the first game, Berlin fell in Sep 1942). The second game was on Challenging, and the AI did quite well in 1941, reaching the gates of Lgrad and Moscow, and played a credible blizzard, but then collapsed. The AI does not seem to understand how to play defense unless it can create the six-deep carpets as Sov.


I think they had said the Soviet AI was really good. The Axis, not that good.

Anyway it's curious: I would have said attacking is more complicated (active, creative) than defending (passive, destructive). Given that I ignore absolutely everything about programming, code, well, I simply don't know Or they simply thought most AI players would play as the Axis, and that's what they strenghtened.

In WitP AE it's the other way around: the AI side (US & Co.) which will have the upper hand and should be getting to Japan is weaker (in fact perhaps unplayable). Here the defender AI (Japan) is stronger (and very playable). Still, operations in WitP are really complex: air, land, naval, amphibious, logisitics, development of forward bases (ports, airfields), island hopping and a long etcetera. The AI would be in deep trouble.

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/22/2011 3:26:20 AM   
sveint


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Fun game, best you can find for strategic/operational east front. Server is great for playing against human opponents.

Negatives are: horrible interface (as usual), a bit too detailed for the scale (individual aircraft and tank types). Balance is generally OK in 1.05. Air war is poorly modelled.

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/22/2011 10:25:46 AM   
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I am really happy with the AI in WiTE.  They really put a lot of hard work into it, and it shows.  That alone is good reason to buy this game.  Sure, it is not human opponent that can come up with ideas like factory raiding or HQ chaining ;-) but as long as you constrain yourself a bit to somewhat historical pace and maneuvering, I find it can cope quite well in both the offensive and defensive. I have yet to see it after 42, though.  It is possible that when the situation gets very tight for the Germans and no mistakes are allowed anymore, AI will present enough mistakes to exploit and run to Berlin in little time. 

In general I guess since the movement phases are "very long" at 7 days (translating into "large movement distances", especially at the beginning or in proper C&C and supply situations and especially for anything motorized), AI has a tough time to plan far ahead as possible moves increase almost exponentially.  It is like playing chess with 10 moves allowed instead of one for each phase.   So the more often I am short on MP, and basically cut my action radius, the better the AI handles me.  If turns were 3.5 days, and MP ranges halved, the AI would do better, and perhaps would have been easier to program.  Perhaps future Wit.. games will allow variable turn length like in WitP/AE, which also there helps to beef up AI.  The only thing that I do really miss for the G&G games is a powerful scripting language such as in ARMA2, which would allow to improve and even partially override the hardcoded routines for AI or anything in game.  That would add enormous potential for modding anything in WiTE and AE.

Else, WiTE surely has its shortcomings, which in my opinion include the lack of "reaction" settings for the non-phasing player (to automatically move units in blocking positions or into meeting engagements against enemy units breaking into the own depth -- much like naval reaction in AE; see BG's AAR; mediates the long 7 day turns a bit, and let's IgoUgo look less like a beer and pretzels game...), the rather over-simplified air war (AE sets the state-of-the-art standards I believe...), the lack of ability to control unit creation as Axis, the lack of controlling ToE changes on both sides (except airframe changes, which are allowed), the lack of a production (Axis) and R&D system (ideally would look like IJ in AE...), and the fixed Axis withdrawals (picks only given units, which can be totally run into the ground by the player so that they actually would be of little value at another front; ideally it'd pick appropriate, unengaged forces with a certain minimum CV threshold).  Some of those things will hopefully be developed into the right direction in the coming titles.

Despite any shortcomings, I am having a lot of fun with this game and only can recommend everyone considering it to jump in.  As usual, G&G and Matrix provide quality for the $, and their service is also excellent -- they are still improving and patching it very actively. 


< Message edited by janh -- 11/22/2011 10:27:02 AM >

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/22/2011 12:36:42 PM   
Michael T


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quote:

and the fixed Axis withdrawals (picks only given units, which can be totally run into the ground by the player so that they actually would be of little value at another front;


Actually they will be withdrawn to the West map edge if understrength and will then suck up replacements before any other unit and then withdraw. It's a good system actually.

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/22/2011 12:54:00 PM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Actually they will be withdrawn to the West map edge if understrength and will then suck up replacements before any other unit and then withdraw. It's a good system actually.


Good to know, maybe I should reread the manual a bit more carefully... or was it a later change? First time I only rushed through it as the game is by itself so intuitive that you really only would need to read up on details. Another plus point.
What will happen if you use it for suicidal raiding, and it is lost entirely this way?

< Message edited by janh -- 11/22/2011 12:55:41 PM >

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/22/2011 2:24:11 PM   
Baelfiin


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German units are automatically rebuilt if they are destroyed, no benefit to suicide them because they are getting withdrawn anyway.

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/22/2011 5:57:16 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh
In general I guess since the movement phases are "very long" at 7 days (translating into "large movement distances", especially at the beginning or in proper C&C and supply situations and especially for anything motorized), AI has a tough time to plan far ahead as possible moves increase almost exponentially.  It is like playing chess with 10 moves allowed instead of one for each phase.   So the more often I am short on MP, and basically cut my action radius, the better the AI handles me.  If turns were 3.5 days, and MP ranges halved, the AI would do better, and perhaps would have been easier to program. 


That particular point is true for the AI, and true for humans as well, especially when confronting a human player with high morale, high MP allowance motorized units available :)

To all the above said, I must say the editor is pretty functional - though a bit convoluted and obscure in some parts - and I hope that with time the community will come up with ways of "working around" some of the problems with the current incarnation of WitE (this is in for the long run, very much like Uncommon Valor was back in 2002). And there's been an outstanding support - in the form of a stream of beta and official patches - that puts to shame the rest of the computer wargaming industry. It's certainly less involved than WitP:AE, which I don't play much because there's quite a few interesting wargames have come out in the last two years or so which I enjoy playing and which I wouldn't be able to get even near because the HUGE timesink strong WitP:AE playing is. However, strong WitE playing requires some time as well.

Feel free to check out the many excellent AAR's on the forums. If anything, their number and the frequency with which they're updated is the best way to get a hold on how good a game can be.

Hope it helps!

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 11/22/2011 6:06:13 PM >


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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/26/2011 9:50:02 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Hey Gary, long time no see you

We should compare the game with WitP (which you already know). It's a monster à la WitP but less complex (or more abstract if you prefer: air war, logistics, you don't need to micromanage them), so this should not scare you.

All I know is I read the manual twice, played 6 turns vs the Fascist AI and then started PBEM. So far so good. Just like with WitP, it helps if you know the conflict, doctrines, plans, etc.

Really a great game


TulliusDetritus, Gents -

I appreciate your views and comments on WitE. My awesome Wife just bought WitE for me as an early Christmas gift. I played the original SPI "War in the East", it's successor "War in Europe" board game, Gary Grigsby's "Second Front" and "War in Russia". To say that I am excited about WitE would be an understatement.

Interestedly enough, WitP AE has been taking up about 95 percent of my gaming time. I am a serious micromanager, and love the detail offered by AE. On the down side, it takes me most of a day (weekends only) to do a turn; I am playing H2H solitaire as I enjoy handling both sides.

So, to hear that WitE has one week turns and moves faster, this is good news. I do not plan to stop playing AE - just to alternate between the two games.

Am delighted to see so many familiar faces here, and feel very much at home. Gary C. - am glad you also took the plunge. WitP and AE are two outstanding - but different - games designed by the same top notch crew. When you consider the huge game improvements implemented with AE over several years, I know that there is much to look forward to with WitE.

Mac

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/26/2011 10:33:44 PM   
tancred41

 

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The way I've come to think of WitE is that it's akin to a successful PC implementation of the Gamers' Operational Combat Series boardgames : as detailed as OCS, but with the PC doing the heavy lifting (eg, supply !)

< Message edited by tancred41 -- 11/26/2011 10:34:23 PM >

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/28/2011 5:24:45 PM   
pauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Like WitP just as on the forum for any help and I'm sure you'll get it in a timely manner  


Can i jump in with questions?

I didnt get quite a well supply distribution. Ok, i know the rules and HQ's size (corps, group, army group etc).

#1.Units draws supply from HQ they are attached right and HQs doesnt take supply from their higher HQ right?

#2. what is the use of those higher HQs? Does armies/pz group HQs have to be close to their subordinate HQ's?

#3. Recently i capture app 200 fuel from sov. AF units and all those fuel went to the HQ of the unit (it was mot. div attached to 1st Pz group directly). But next turn almost all captured fuel (which was damaged) gone - where? to the units/corps attached to 1st Pz group? To be honest i didnt notice that, in fact it looked like fuel dumps gone :(

#4. what conditions i have to met for HQ build up?

#5. Where i can see how much AVFs (soviet tanks) i captured? Those captured tanks cant be assigned to divisions manualy, right?

#6. there are two or three "static divisons" as reinforcements for the Germans early in the game. Why do they call them static, since they can move?

#7. Why would i want to make my mobile units (inf,) static?

thx in advance


< Message edited by pauk -- 11/28/2011 5:27:41 PM >


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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/28/2011 6:28:33 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Lots of questions, Pauk

#2 HQs may commit reserves to combats. The leaders will pass some checks too to help during combats
#4 you have to be at maximum 20 movement points if I remember correctly
#5 in the production screen, at the bottom
#7 you save vehicles, which are added to the total pool

And that's the only thing I really can answer. Which proves I really must re-read the manual... Anyway, you didn't buy the game yet (and therefore can't read the manual)?

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/28/2011 6:48:42 PM   
gingerbread


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1. Correct
2. For supply purposes, higher HQ's don't matter.
3. Probably it was distributed to the units attached direct to the Army level HQ (1st Pz group is Army level). You can check from where the mot. got its fuel by looking at its Supply Details.
4. W/i 20MP of railhead and HQ not having moved. Enough AP's to pay. Check out the patch notes as well.
5. Production screen, but you have to select a country to see their share of the loot. You cannot distribute AFV's manually, captured or produced.
6. It's like HG Panzer Fallschirmjager Division, just a name.
7. Static mode units take reduced attrition losses and needs fewer vehicles. They dig forts 10% quicker. The attrition aspect is IMO the important one.

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/28/2011 7:37:47 PM   
wadortch

 

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quote:

Lots of questions, Pauk

#2 HQs may commit reserves to combats. The leaders will pass some checks too to help during combats
#4 you have to be at maximum 20 movement points if I remember correctly
#5 in the production screen, at the bottom
#7 you save vehicles, which are added to the total pool


TD re you number 2. Where do you find that language in the manual addressing number of reserve units that may be committed to a single battle?
Thanks!

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/28/2011 8:20:18 PM   
freeboy

 

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HelloMac, did you not get the scenario.. bigger than most games.. fire in the East with Norm Krogers something something etc etc? I could blame it on age but truthfully I never was great on details?

< Message edited by freeboy -- 11/28/2011 9:44:48 PM >

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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/28/2011 8:52:29 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Wadortch, in 15.5.1, 15.5.1.1. and then 15.5.2

15.5.1.1. RESERVE COMMITMENT LIMITATIONS DUE TO UNIT SIZE
15.5.2. RESERVE COMMITMENT MP REQUIREMENT
etc etc

Especially this part:

15.5.1.1. RESERVE COMMITMENT LIMITATIONS DUE TO UNIT SIZE
Corps sized combat units are less likely to be committed offensively as they add one to the
leader initiative roll. Brigades and Regiments are more likely to be committed as they subtract
one from the leader initiative roll. In addition, as units in reserve mode from one side are
committed to a battle, the chance of further commitments to the battle decline, based on the
size of the combat units that have already been committed as follows:
Corps =15
Division = 9
Brigade = 5
Regiment = 3
Using the above values, as additional units attempt to be committed, they check to see if
Die(18) is greater than the value of units already committed. If not, the unit is not committed.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 11/28/2011 8:53:30 PM >


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RE: Sell Me This Game - 11/29/2011 9:28:50 PM   
pauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's fun, and not as involved as WITP.


i agree. AE is somewhat different, cause this Allied edition basicly is product of "Hey it wasnt historical!" Allied fans. In short, they penaltised Japs, but not the Allies... oh, nevermind...

WiTE is complicated, same as WitP

but, WiTP has a soul... every turn can be so-unexpected, every choice you made makes you sweat... but i guess that game engine has something with that (WiTP is WEGO game). Even if we ignore that, i found that is easier/more fun to keep the track for a single unit (div, aircraft squadron/daitai, ship) than it is doing a same thing in WiTE...

WitP is more flexible than WiTE:

-you may choose what, where, when and how you will attack (WiTE is more simplified: attack towards the east and outflank your enemy)

- you may, as Jap player "correct" mistakes made by Jap leaders in WWII (trough managing your war economy, army and airforce)

dont get me wrong - WiTE is great game, but it miss one important thing : Banzai!

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