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Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 3:51:59 AM   
MartialDoctor


Posts: 388
Joined: 3/7/2011
Status: offline 		I'm not sure if this is a bug but it should not be possible. Another empire has come in and established a colony on a planet where I had mining base, thus taking the planet from me.

If it's a bug, let me know and I'll submit a save. Even if it's not, please resolve this issue as it's absolutely ridiculous...
Post #: 1
RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 4:02:22 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Status: offline 		That's by design, as long as the system was not in your sphere of influence, such that you did not control it. However, it should be a diplomatic hit to do that. Colonization is seen as the ultimate claim to a planet. Mining is a lesser claim and usually a smaller operation than a full colony.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 4:27:24 AM   
MartialDoctor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

That's by design, as long as the system was not in your sphere of influence, such that you did not control it. However, it should be a diplomatic hit to do that. Colonization is seen as the ultimate claim to a planet. Mining is a lesser claim and usually a smaller operation than a full colony.

Regards,

- Erik


What do you mean by diplomatic hit? I see no reputation damage to the offending empire.

If I have a mining station set up, I obviously have claimed the planet and have people living and working there. If they come to colonize this same planet then they have, obviously, forced those people off of the planet against their will.

IMO, this should be seen as a very hostile act and similar to invading a planet when not at war. I see no difference between the two. Is it perceived thusly by the AI and by the game (in terms of reputation hit) or is it not as drastic?

< Message edited by MartialDoctor -- 11/27/2011 5:22:58 AM >

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 6:30:42 AM   
Simulation01


Posts: 540
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline 		I have railed against this before....alas my plea's fell on deaf ears.


It should at least be considered an act of war and so when it happens the two empires are immediately at war and the empire that setup the colony should take the reputation hit as well.

< Message edited by Simulation01 -- 11/27/2011 6:32:38 AM >

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 8:24:49 AM   
Wicky

 

Posts: 102
Joined: 4/1/2010
From: Linz, Austria
Status: offline 		So you're complaining that you left a towel on the sun lounger on the beach, and next morning you come there to see it's already occupied? Heh, reality hits you hard :)

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Post #: 5
RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 1:30:54 PM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline 		It is a diplomatic offense... as if you make an excavation in the arctic and a russian science team decides to pack a research station right there. Obviously it is NOT an act of war, but it is a diplomatic "challenge". Either you consider going to war and prove them wrong or you take it and risk them acting against you a second time. It is clearly a wanted action. Maybe you are playing on higher difficulty and are not in a nice relation with them. I did this with the greedy ancient guardians a lot which took the good worlds for ressoruce extraction...

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 1:35:05 PM   
Cauldyth

 

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Status: offline 		I think if the presence of a simple mining station were sufficient to give you full claim to a planet, that would make it far too easy to just spam every decent planet within half the galaxy with mining stations, regardless of whether or not you could colonize them any time soon. Your opponents would then have to go to war to get them away from you.

It seems to me that the current mechanic, while a little goofy, is the least goofy option.

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 1:44:52 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		I agree. Claiming system by mining station is not good design. So putting bases outside your sphere of influence got a risk now. It used to be very annoying when the AI colonized your main mining systems around your capital and had the guts to complain about bases in their system :)

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 4:44:31 PM   
MartialDoctor


Posts: 388
Joined: 3/7/2011
Status: offline 		Well, let's take a couple of analogies.

I am an explorer in a new land and I find an oil well.  I build an oil well and bring laborers there to get this oil.  All of a sudden, person B comes along and says, I'm going to live here now.  You must all leave immediately.  If you don't leave immediately, I will force you off the land (and person B has a gun).

Or, you could do the same sort of analogy with the above scenario with empires.  Empire A has a series of oil wells, or what have you, in said territory.  Empire B then comes and says, this place is now mine, we're going to live here.  Leave immediately or we'll force you off.

Obviously, it can be done.  But this would seriously offend the person / empire and should be perceived as such.  Also, it should hurt one's reputation as this is definitely a disreputable action.  I just want to know if it's perceived this way in game.  From what I've seen thus far, it is not.  Although I could be wrong and that's why I asked the second question.

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Post #: 9
RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 4:46:43 PM   
MartialDoctor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

I think if the presence of a simple mining station were sufficient to give you full claim to a planet, that would make it far too easy to just spam every decent planet within half the galaxy with mining stations, regardless of whether or not you could colonize them any time soon. Your opponents would then have to go to war to get them away from you.



They wouldn't have to go to war. They could just destroy the station and then claim the planet. This would hurt their reputation and such as it should be when you are force ably evicting someone.

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Post #: 10
RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 4:51:03 PM   
ASHBERY76


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From: England
Status: offline 		I think it should have a very slight diplomactic hit but I can see gameplay issues by making a mining ship claim a system.I am seeing many exploits with that.

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 5:43:36 PM   
Nedrear


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Status: offline 		We talk about stations not ships. A orbital planetary STATION.

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 5:46:14 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
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From: England
Status: offline 		Typo and the same issue anyway.

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 6:05:24 PM   
Locarnus


Posts: 287
Joined: 5/30/2010
From: Earth, Sol
Status: offline 		The problem is, that you cant claim systems, if you can not colonize one of their planets.

If there is a great system with 14 planets and 10 moons and korabbian spice and whatever in the middle of nowhere and it contains only 1 desert planet which you currently can not colonize, then you have to forget about this system...

You can stuff it with spaceports, defensive bases and mining stations, but eventually a desert people will come along, colonize the desert planet and all the system will belong to them...

This is ridiculous. You have hardware in this system, which costs you 3 times the maint of the hardware in their homesystem, but all they need to take it from you is a colonizer.

There should be something like the outpost in moo2. You can put such an outpost on a planet you can not colonize yet, it costs you a massive amount of upkeep (eg 20k or so), generates no taxes, but mines the resources of that planet like a colony and claims this planet/system.

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 6:12:30 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		Well the game has included mining rights for those issues and it kinda goes against the whole borders gameplay systems if all you put down an outpost.

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/27/2011 7:46:12 PM   
Nedrear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Well the game has included mining rights for those issues and it kinda goes against the whole borders gameplay systems if all you put down an outpost.


It does not if this applys in areas OUTSIDE the ruling territory. In this case it would prevent foreign colonisation while maintaining your order. It is not said that this spice planet needs to be in enemy territory.

I second the idea of expensive outpost to claim rights. Its a brilliant idea I used to prevent mining - not colonizing as it is impossible - in earlier games. I build a military buoy for that.

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/28/2011 1:13:58 AM   
dazoline II


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Status: offline 		They way I see it since the mining station is a private enterprise and not part of your empire's ships or bases the act is akin to nationalizing another nation's industry. Happened a lot to the oil industry in history. Makes the owning corporation mad as hell and usually the home nation as well but an act of war, no.

Doing this in neutral territory where might makes right, well you always have the option to take it back by force. The only law in deep space is the law of torpedoes. Take a look at some naval history and how laws of priacy evolved, the game exists in an era without interglactic law.

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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/28/2011 8:49:41 AM   
MartialDoctor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dazoline II

They way I see it since the mining station is a private enterprise and not part of your empire's ships or bases the act is akin to nationalizing another nation's industry. Happened a lot to the oil industry in history. Makes the owning corporation mad as hell and usually the home nation as well but an act of war, no.

Doing this in neutral territory where might makes right, well you always have the option to take it back by force. The only law in deep space is the law of torpedoes. Take a look at some naval history and how laws of priacy evolved, the game exists in an era without interglactic law.


I think this is a good point and what I was getting at. After thinking it over, I feel that you should be able to do it but it should have repercussions. If you do it to the AI, they should be extremely upset with you. And the AI should know the player, and other AIs, will react in this way. Also, a reputation hit is in order. After all, it is a disreputable act (I wouldn't trust someone who did such things).

In terms of how to resolve this, I have found if you attack a colonizer, they will retreat, obviously. The problem is, in my current situation, the other empire would then retreat any unit that came in the vicinity of my patrolling ships there (even merchants which I would, of course, have no problem with). I'm also not sure if this would work every time since I've only done it this once. It would be nice to have some sort of order to have military ships "guard" a planet from any attempts to colonize or mine a planet. In this way, you wouldn't have to babysit your ships in that area to "claim" a certain spot.

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Post #: 18
RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/29/2011 1:08:56 AM   
Simulation01


Posts: 540
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline 		The only problem is that their is no other way to prevent colonization of a mined planet without having to set their and eyeball the place.  There is no way to tell a ship to fire on any colonization ship that approaches..you have to do it manually and their are a lot of places where that is just not practical, also you are taking the reputation hit where as the dirt bag that was going to squat on your mining facility gets away with no rep hit.

This has all been argued before and NOTHING was done to even mitigate the colonizing loophole.  There should be some kind of order you can give a ship or fleet to fire on friend or foe that approaches a certain planet or position.


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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/29/2011 1:51:38 AM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
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From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		I agree with Ash here I'm afraid, using mines to claim planets outside of your territory may be realistic, but it would make for an awful gameplay feature, rendering many other things irrlevent and giving you a very easy cheap option.

Remember there is a difference between a rep hit and a relations hit.  You control your own relations towards the AI, if it does something to offend you that you think warrants war... then you know what to do


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RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/29/2011 7:45:45 AM   
MartialDoctor


Posts: 388
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

I agree with Ash here I'm afraid, using mines to claim planets outside of your territory may be realistic, but it would make for an awful gameplay feature, rendering many other things irrlevent and giving you a very easy cheap option.


How do you think this should be resolved then? There needs to be a way for you to keep other empires away from said planet and there are none currently outside of manually sitting there and watching it with a fleet nearby.

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 21
RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/29/2011 8:26:03 AM   
feelotraveller


Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		I'm not for stopping colonisation of planets with mining stations on them, for various reasons I won't belabour.

What I think would be a good solution would be to allow a 'counter-blockade' (perhaps we could call this 'interdiction') order for your military ships at your mining systems. This would be recognised by the computer as warning them off sending ships to the system. I think it should apply to all ships. Colonisation could still be tried but with the knowledge that there will be repercussions, diplomatically, for BOTH sides (you for shooting at them, them for trying to colonise, whether they succeed or not). I would be tempted to make this a (minor) reputation penalty. It would require at least one military ship to institute and maintain. Of course the computer could also 'interdict'.

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Post #: 22
RE: Empire colonizing my station's planet - 11/29/2011 8:56:22 AM   
WoodMan


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From: Ol' Blighty
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quote:

How do you think this should be resolved then? There needs to be a way for you to keep other empires away from said planet and there are none currently outside of manually sitting there and watching it with a fleet nearby.


Two ideas, either would make me just as pleased

1.  No change, I'm already fine with things how they are.  Using mining stations to claim planets makes both border system and colonisation techs almost pointless.

2.  Add a "Vital Mining Operation" tick box to every mining station.  If you click it then automated ships, or the mining station itself if it is armed will fire upon incoming colonyships.  This could be hard to implement.  Firing on an incoming colony ship should be a diplomatic and reputation offence, you are firing on civilians.  Claiming a planet with a colony ship that *is not inside another Empires territory (which is always the case in Legends)* should only be a diplomatic hit with the empire from whom you are taking the planet and not an overall rep hit.  It was not theirs to begin with, it was outside their territory...  Of course, firing on a mining station that is defending itself, or a fleet defending it should carry the normal penalties for attacking without declaring war.

Automation and AI Empire wise, I would suggest making it based on caution/recklessness and/or agressiveness/passiveness.

Quite Aggressive races like Human should only have "vital mining operation" automatically ticked on Korrabian Spice, Zentabia Fluid and Loros Fruit. More aggressive races like Boskara should perhaps have it ticked on everything, passive races like Teekan on nothing. Also, aggressive AI empires like Boskara and Mortalen should have weapons built into default mining base designs to emphasize this point.



< Message edited by WoodMan -- 11/29/2011 9:04:41 AM >

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