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This game is still dreadful for beginners

 
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This game is still dreadful for beginners - 11/28/2011 10:22:35 PM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		Well just spent my 30 quid to get the new version and a disk.

But really, 2011 - this game is designed to turn people off.

Manual - a joke. Look up the word "tutorial"

I bought TOAW - ACOW a few years ago, got as far as Arrancourt and Crete and gave up. Thought another five years would improve things.

Come on, what is about wargames?
Post #: 1
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 11/28/2011 11:58:46 PM   
desert


Posts: 827
Joined: 9/14/2006
Status: offline 		Spend at least 1000 hours playing the game, and then another 500 religiously following board discussion and poring over old threads.

It's the only way.

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_____________________________

"I would rather he had given me one more division"
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(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 2
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 11/29/2011 8:42:53 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Well just spent my 30 quid to get the new version and a disk.

But really, 2011 - this game is designed to turn people off.

Manual - a joke. Look up the word "tutorial"

I bought TOAW - ACOW a few years ago, got as far as Arrancourt and Crete and gave up. Thought another five years would improve things.

Come on, what is about wargames?


Playing wargames is always a steep learning curve and even the hardest seasoned veteran here always discovers something new. I strongly recommend to give my 'superior' tutorials a try. You can find them at the Gefechtsstand. The slides took me hours, lot'sa cans of cheap lager and a box of f@gs... Give it a try mate!

Klink, Oberst


_____________________________

My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 3
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 11/29/2011 4:58:17 PM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks guys - I looked at Colonel Klink's gef whatsit - thank you.

Maybe I'll try and write an idiots AAR for Arrancourt as I recommended that scenario for another person who was struggling. Then you can all really laugh at me.

I'm very generous to Matrix:

Advanced Tactics
Forge of Freedom
Crown of Glory EE
and others including the Slitherine ones.

But then Paradox and AGEOD have my money also, and Battlefront - gosh in fact I am a one man support fund for the gaming industry. Forests have been felled for printing manuals.

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 4
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/2/2011 3:51:43 PM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		Luftwaffe (or was it Luftpost) delivered my nice box and disk straight from Germany to UK - hey a manual too.

Now I've installed the game and it's version 3.2 which presumably ties in with the manual.

Should I leave it at 3.2 or upgrade to 3.4 and find that manual and game diverge - or is there not much difference to a beginner, apart from graphic look?

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 5
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/2/2011 5:13:01 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Kamerad!

Update to 3.4 -> http://www.matrixgames.com/products/317/downloads/Norm.Koger%27s.The.Operational.Art.of.War.III

And give ye'ole Oberst's tutorials a try :) Thanks mate!

Klink, Oberst



_____________________________

My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 6
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/3/2011 10:36:52 PM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks again Oberst.

Incidentally, my disk is especially engraved with my name on it - I bet a lot of Matrix customers didn't know that. Something to treasure for the years to come.


Incidentally (2), I agree, Carthago delenda est.

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 7
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/4/2011 7:49:46 PM   
Olorin


Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/22/2008
From: Greece
Status: offline 		I don't get why new players find the game difficult to play. Difficult to master yes, difficult to play? I don't think so, at least at a basic level. I mean, you move units around and attack. Where is the difficulty in that? X for infantry, ellipse for armour etc.

_____________________________

"Drang nach Osten"
--A TOAWIII AAR--

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 8
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/4/2011 10:14:10 PM   
tcarusil

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 5/1/2011
From: Indianapolis, IN
Status: offline 		Have you tried Anonymous Heroics (Red PO) by James Mathews. There is a 16 page walk through that I found very helpful.

TomC

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 9
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/7/2011 9:54:38 PM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks for your suggestions guys.

I found a couple of tutorial articles by Bill Wilder and Glenn Saunders that I printed out about five years ago and so read through them.

I'll follow up other suggestions too, so thanks again.

(in reply to tcarusil)
Post #: 10
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/8/2011 2:37:08 PM   
Olorin


Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/22/2008
From: Greece
Status: offline 		For game mastery, read articles, AAR's and ask questions here. This forum is pretty friendly to beginners. There is not as much traffic here as before, but it's still enough.

_____________________________

"Drang nach Osten"
--A TOAWIII AAR--

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 11
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/22/2011 10:18:02 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Well just spent my 30 quid to get the new version and a disk.

But really, 2011 - this game is designed to turn people off.

Manual - a joke. Look up the word "tutorial"

I bought TOAW - ACOW a few years ago, got as far as Arrancourt and Crete and gave up. Thought another five years would improve things.

Come on, what is about wargames?


Not my experience. When I got the demo in '99 it was an epiphany "Ah. This is what I wanted". Played ten turns of Korea about a dozen times. Then bought the game.

Of course, it was hard going for a while there. But eventually got good at it.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 12/22/2011 10:21:05 PM >

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 12
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/23/2011 11:53:16 AM   
demyansk


Posts: 2840
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline 		Same here guys, I still don't use all the bells and whistles in the game but when playing by email it allows me the feeling of not rushing the turn for some reason.  It seems that when I play the computer I want to get the turn done, just psychological I guess.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 13
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/26/2011 7:28:24 PM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		Thank you TomC. I found the Anonymous Heroics scenario and played it disastrously; then found on the web the 16 page walkthrough (thanks to whoever did that - Pascal ??) and then played it again with much more success. Many points in that walkthrough could easily have been put in the manual to supplement the useless page 141.

Also, I now find there is a list of scenarios which includes the number of units - at least a rough guide so in your first or second game you don't find 500 units attacking you as soon as you press begin - and then sit for a couple of minutes with a blur of tokens and banging going on leaving you to wonder WTF that was all about.

(in reply to demyansk)
Post #: 14
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/27/2011 1:19:55 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

...to supplement the useless page 141.


?? The manual only has 78 pages - only 73 of which have page numbers. Furthermore, the "16-page tutorial" for Anonymous Heroics is included with the game. In fact, all four tutorial scenarios have their own associated documents included with the game. You can access them with the "document" button, when the scenario is selected (this was explained in the "What's New" document).

quote:

Also, I now find there is a list of scenarios which includes the number of units - at least a rough guide so in your first or second game you don't find 500 units attacking you as soon as you press begin - and then sit for a couple of minutes with a blur of tokens and banging going on leaving you to wonder WTF that was all about.


If you'll look in the "Articles" thread, you'll see that I have an article about scenario sizes, that even sorts the scenarios by complexity. And I don't know what settings you have for movement delay and detailed combat reports, but play against the PO can be slowed down so that you can tell what's happening.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 12/27/2011 1:49:00 AM >

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 15
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/27/2011 12:40:54 PM   
demyansk


Posts: 2840
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline 		alti - send me a pm if you use instant messenger and I can help you go through it.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 16
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/28/2011 11:23:15 AM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks to all of you who have posted help or sent me a pm.

I'll shut up now.



@Curtis - found those spreadsheets - thank you. Plenty to do at the smaller end. How you guys play the big ones beats me. 600 units - spend just one minute thinking about each unit and ten hours slip by.

< Message edited by altipueri -- 12/28/2011 11:52:22 AM >

(in reply to demyansk)
Post #: 17
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/28/2011 4:04:51 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		Seriously, does anyone know what page he was talking about? Is there some alternate version of the manual I'm unaware of other than the .pdf document?

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 18
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/28/2011 6:55:12 PM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		It's the e-book pdf manual on the disk that came with the game. 32 mb - so too large to pm you.I haven't checked to see if there's a downloadable copy.

But, whilst I'm here, having just about defended Singapore.

1. If using artillery to attack is it right you might as well always put "ignore losses" because it's one way traffic ?
2. Are scenarios generally designed to be historical, or balanced to make an even game?

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 19
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/28/2011 7:18:45 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

It's the e-book pdf manual on the disk that came with the game. 32 mb - so too large to pm you.I haven't checked to see if there's a downloadable copy.

But, whilst I'm here, having just about defended Singapore.

1. If using artillery to attack is it right you might as well always put "ignore losses" because it's one way traffic ?
2. Are scenarios generally designed to be historical, or balanced to make an even game?


1. Each loss level means one more round (10% of the turn) used up. So usually yes, but if you're shooting for as many rounds as possible and are confident of getting them, it might be worth holding back.
2. It depends on the scenario. Some are designed with a focus on historical accuracy, some for an interesting game. There's really no need to sacrifice balance in either case, as one can just move the goalposts to let the better player win on points even if the battle is lost. If a scenario is not balanced it's almost certainly because it hasn't been properly playtested.

Frankly, producing a scenario which is both realistic and playable is a hugely challenging and time consuming exercise- and this increases exponentially with the size and scope of the scenario concerned. The majority of scenarios are churned out at breathtaking speed and as such are often problematic by any measure you care to name. Of course it's often hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. Perhaps the best impartial indicator is the completeness of design notes, and especially if there's a version history. This latter suggests the designer went back and changed elements of the scenario on the basis of playtesting.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 20
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/28/2011 7:42:10 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Thanks to all of you who have posted help or sent me a pm.

I'll shut up now.



@Curtis - found those spreadsheets - thank you. Plenty to do at the smaller end. How you guys play the big ones beats me. 600 units - spend just one minute thinking about each unit and ten hours slip by.


Test the Tutorial '41 from the STALAG 13 crew is my advice.

Klink, Oberst

_____________________________

My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 21
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/28/2011 8:03:04 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

It's the e-book pdf manual on the disk that came with the game. 32 mb - so too large to pm you.I haven't checked to see if there's a downloadable copy.


I have the manual. I'm trying to understand what page you meant when you referenced a page 141. The manual only has 78 pages.

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 22
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/28/2011 8:35:17 PM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		Ok, let me guess. As my manual has 156 pages, 78 is half 156 therefore maybe the acrobat or pdf reader you are using is showing two pages of the small A5 approx manual per page. So, try looking at page 70 or 71 of your version.

Sudden flurry here on this forum. I've played Singapore scenario again since my previous post an hour or two ago and this time got a victory - hooray. First time I played on an old laptop with ACOW; second time on a slightly newer laptop with the recently purchased TOAW 3 updated - played on default settings.    

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 23
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/28/2011 11:06:20 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Ok, let me guess. As my manual has 156 pages, 78 is half 156 therefore maybe the acrobat or pdf reader you are using is showing two pages of the small A5 approx manual per page. So, try looking at page 70 or 71 of your version.


You seem to be using something I've never heard of. Can you look at the screenshot attached and see if that is the section you meant? Otherwise, can you list the section numbers instead (for example, in the view I've shown, "Game Notes" would be section 20.0).




Attachment (1)

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 24
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/29/2011 1:17:17 AM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		Yes that's it - section 20 - straight after seeing the elephant.

Page 141 on my pdf and on the printed booklet. So that's solved.

Thanks again to all of you who offered help.



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 25
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/29/2011 1:02:50 PM   
orchard

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 12/20/2011
Status: offline 		I'd like to say thanks to all the Mod's and contributors to this forum and game. Nice one!
I've only just started playing TOAW (with only experience of SP2 variants and CCS's simulations from yonks ago), and whilst it is daunting,I read a lot of online contributions, looked over a fair few scenarios (playing a turn hot-seated max of each); I then jumped into the North Africa campaign as CW,and doing quite well. Once this is over,I'll have a better grounding of the mechanics and be able to use the manual and tutorials to flesh out my understanding and technique.
Great job thank you :)

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 26
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/29/2011 3:58:07 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Yes that's it - section 20 - straight after seeing the elephant.

Page 141 on my pdf and on the printed booklet. So that's solved.


Well at least we're on the same page, finally. So, you found section 20 to be useless. Those are the immortal words of Norm Koger himself. I believe they are still just as valid as the day they were written, over 13 years ago. I would take them to heart.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 12/29/2011 4:00:18 PM >

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 27
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/29/2011 6:48:06 PM   
tcarusil

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 5/1/2011
From: Indianapolis, IN
Status: offline 		The Kasserine scenario also has a text file that I found helpful. It walks you through the first turn, combat turn by combat turn, and provides guidance to handling your troops.

TomC

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 28
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 12/29/2011 7:32:01 PM   
orchard

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 12/20/2011
Status: offline 		Not sure whether this was meant for me,but thanks anyway Tom,I'll check it out once I've been pasted by the PO and have some experience to hang all this info on! My defence has been good,but advancing, recce.,and the identification of core supply routes all need major work,never mind losing half my fleet and nearly all my 2lber a/t guns... :)

(in reply to tcarusil)
Post #: 29
RE: This game is still dreadful for beginners - 1/6/2012 6:53:22 PM   
Anchovy

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 9/29/2011
Status: offline 		I think TOAW series should not be purchased by casual gamers. Something like the Panzer General series should be more accomodating. Having said that, my takes ...

1. TOAW seems to be just the right kind of application for those who are used to traditional turn- and hex-based operational-level board wargames looking for powerful editor and customizability (custom-made equipments, maps, and unit icons). I would not recommend TOAW if a prospective buyer is not interested in spending loads of hours building and experimenting with his own scenarios, since the editing feature is what makes TOAW one of its kind.

2. Perhaps the most complicated part of TOAW is how to program the Event Editor. In particular, tinkering around to get the Programmed Opponent to more or less behave in accordance with your expectations.

3. Need to spend some time going through scenario briefing and other text files (if any), since special events and reinforcement schedules will strongly affect future turns.

4. Perhaps the most straightforward way of getting used to the game mechanics is to build a very crude scenario involving no more than a few units and see how they perform. (For example, having an artillery unit to perform general support vs. assigning a specific bombardment target.)

5. I think turn managent is something that takes quite a while to get used to as it takes experience to know how to optimize unit movements.

(in reply to orchard)
Post #: 30
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