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RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 2:50:06 PM   
Cauldyth

 

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline 		I think the analogy to land war and 3-mile naval limits is an incorrect one. In the real world, the 3-mile limit prevents ships from entering that zone. In DW, the spheres do not prevent enemy ships from entering, so they aren't equivalent to having a 3-mile limit which has been extended to cover the entire ocean.

War in space is essentially island-hopping. The space between islands (planets) is wide open to anyone, at any time. All the spheres of influence are doing is saying that if you own one island (planet) in a group of islands (planets), you own all of them. You don't need to colonize every single island (planet) in the group.

The way this mechanic is represented visually is what seems to be causing the annoyance with some people. Because the space between the planets is being painted with your colour, it's making it look like you own that space. You do not. That space is open to any ship, from any empire, at any time, without treaty or diplomatic implications. You have claims to planets, not to open space, and that's handled appropriately by the game mechanics. It's just the representation, where open space is being painted with your empire's colour, that's misleading.

I suggest turning off the spheres, and using the halos. Those represent the true mechanics at work, and also agree with the reality of navies in real life.

(in reply to cmdrnarrain)
Post #: 31
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 2:58:49 PM   
solops

 

Posts: 814
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Central Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

I think the analogy to land war and 3-mile naval limits is an incorrect one. In the real world, the 3-mile limit prevents ships from entering that zone. In DW, the spheres do not prevent enemy ships from entering, so they aren't equivalent to having a 3-mile limit which has been extended to cover the entire ocean.

War in space is essentially island-hopping. The space between islands (planets) is wide open to anyone, at any time. All the spheres of influence are doing is saying that if you own one island (planet) in a group of islands (planets), you own all of them. You don't need to colonize every single island (planet) in the group.

The way this mechanic is represented visually is what seems to be causing the annoyance with some people. Because the space between the planets is being painted with your colour, it's making it look like you own that space. You do not. That space is open to any ship, from any empire, at any time, without treaty or diplomatic implications. You have claims to planets, not to open space, and that's handled appropriately by the game mechanics. It's just the representation, where open space is being painted with your empire's colour, that's misleading.

I suggest turning off the spheres, and using the halos. Those represent the true mechanics at work, and also agree with the reality of navies in real life.



Island hopping, yes, exactly. But the SoI is not just saying you own that island, it is also claiming too vast a region around it and that is my objection. It IS claiming you own that space. And a claim on some space around a system is reasonable. This is not just a visual representation. It has very real potential diplomatic effects. Thank goodness these spheres are "soft" and one can still cross them with some negative effects (as it should be). But the spheres are just too blasted big. THAT is the problem. The areas that are claimed by factions, areas that cause negative diplomatic effects, are too large as currently calculated.


_____________________________

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(in reply to Cauldyth)
Post #: 32
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 3:05:40 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		I guess my initial reaction to the screenshot was: looks great to me!

Also, the analogy to a 3-mile territorial sea is outdated. These days it's a 12-mile territorial sea, another 12-mile contiguous zone, and a 200-mile "exclusive economic zone" (EEZ). A "legal map" of the world does look more like the screenshot from the OP's game, especially in places like East Asia, where Japan claims 200-mile EEZs stemming from rocks in the middle of nowhere. Admittedly there are still "high seas" of no-man's-land on real Earth, but they're much smaller than they used to be, and the "sphere of influence bubbles" have expanded dramatically.



< Message edited by Grotius -- 12/1/2011 3:14:00 PM >

(in reply to solops)
Post #: 33
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 3:13:08 PM   
MasterChief


Posts: 159
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: The Hundred Fathom Curve
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

I guess my initial reaction to the screenshot was: looks great to me!

Also, the analogy to a 3-mile territorial sea is outdated. These days it's a 12-mile territorial sea, another 12-mile contiguous zone, and a 200-mile "exclusive economic zone" (EEZ). A "legal map" of the world does look more like the screenshot from the OP's game, especially in places like East Asia, where Japan claims 200-mile EEZs stemming from rocks in the middle of nowhere. Admittedly there are still "high seas" of no-man's-land on real Earth, but they're much smaller than the used to be, and the "sphere of influence bubbles" have expanded dramatically.




Good point... I've been a part of patrolling those zones both domesticaly and for our allies. The Black Sea, since the end of the Cold War, is also a very interesting area of contention with Romanian, Bulgarian, Ukraine, Russian, Georgian and Turkish "spheres" of influence running over the top of each other.

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 34
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 3:14:40 PM   
solops

 

Posts: 814
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Central Texas
Status: offline 		3 mile, 20 miles or 200 miles...It is still all relatively small given the size of the ocean. In interstellar space the distances are unimaginably vast. The spheres should be smaller. I often wonder how the AI even knows when someone is there to object to, since even improved long-range scanners don't begin to cover it all.

_____________________________

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 35
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 3:18:19 PM   
solops

 

Posts: 814
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Central Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterChief

Good point... I've been a part of patrolling those zones both domesticaly and for our allies. The Black Sea, since the end of the Cold War, is also a very interesting area of contention with Romanian, Bulgarian, Ukraine, Russian, Georgian and Turkish "spheres" of influence running over the top of each other.


Yeah, south of the Philippines oil companies have to pay fees to the Philippines, China and Vietnam on each well because they all claim the oil as theirs. Triple duplicate fees on each barrel! Sort of inhibits development. Not to mention the rigs China has seized and put missiles on.

_____________________________

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand

(in reply to MasterChief)
Post #: 36
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 3:29:31 PM   
MasterChief


Posts: 159
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: The Hundred Fathom Curve
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: solops

3 mile, 20 miles or 200 miles...It is still all relatively small given the size of the ocean. In interstellar space the distances are unimaginably vast. The spheres should be smaller. I often wonder how the AI even knows when someone is there to object to, since even improved long-range scanners don't begin to cover it all.


Ok, I have to agree with your observation in regards to monitoring borders.

As a real world example, the US Cavalry had this problem in the early days of westward expansion. Due to treaties with the major Native American tribes, several areas were off limits to settlers and prospectors. However, the area was just too vast for the cavalry to enforce and border violations, on both sides, were rampant. Similar to your observation, whole mining communities were set up and were even expanding without the US government knowing about them.

(in reply to solops)
Post #: 37
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 3:32:50 PM   
solops

 

Posts: 814
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Central Texas
Status: offline 		Like I suggested earlier, please give us some SoI magnitude sliders in the game set-up. Then everyone can have the perfect game...as they see it.

_____________________________

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand

(in reply to MasterChief)
Post #: 38
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 3:39:27 PM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
Joined: 10/29/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: solops

Like I suggested earlier, please give us some SoI magnitude sliders in the game set-up. Then everyone can have the perfect game...as they see it.


Well no objection...

Something between Normal (now) and none... we don't need to increase it...

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Post #: 39
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 4:01:35 PM   
malkuth74

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 3/27/2010
Status: offline 		Me personally I delt with 2 years of having your way no borders.. Now we have them.. If you magically get your way I will hunt you down and make you play Barbie and the Horse PC game for the rest of your life.

And if the devs listen to this, they will now be regulated to Making Barbie and the Horse PC II for you can play the expansion.

Enough said.

(in reply to solops)
Post #: 40
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 4:01:50 PM   
Cauldyth

 

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline 		More options are always appreciated by everyone.

(in reply to Nedrear)
Post #: 41
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 4:22:21 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		Its a thing of beauty in my opinion.  Before they increased the sphere sizes I was still getting the same old problem of Empires being built on top of mine (like before the spheres existed).

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(in reply to cmdrnarrain)
Post #: 42
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 4:43:37 PM   
cmdrnarrain

 

Posts: 89
Joined: 4/21/2010
Status: offline 		I guess I don't see what your issue is now.
 
Is it mechanical or visual?
 
It sounds visual, which if that is the case suck it up baby.   Borders are a wonderful addition to the game.  So what if you think there are to big.  No empire in this world or imagery ever claimed less space.
 
I plan to build border stations surounding mine just so the filthy aliens know damn sure where the line is!

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Post #: 43
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 5:09:07 PM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

I plan to build border stations surrounding mine just so the filthy aliens know damn sure where the line is!

I like it Cmdrnarrain!

Here draweth the line damn it! Get out of my sky!

{i.e. Please excuse the Shaktur Firestorm Torpedoes heading your way!)




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ehsumrell1 -- 12/1/2011 5:10:28 PM >

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Post #: 44
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 5:36:20 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Ok everyone, please do not pile on solops for making a suggestion. There is nothing at all wrong with that and opinions can differ.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 45
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 6:05:06 PM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		lol! PILE ON!

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Post #: 46
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 6:09:50 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

Its a thing of beauty in my opinion.  Before they increased the sphere sizes I was still getting the same old problem of Empires being built on top of mine (like before the spheres existed).


Indeed the reason I stopped playing DW was the disgusting mess the game would become at mid stage with colonies all over the place.I just did not have the time to figure out where and who owned what.A large enforced uniformed border system is needed when the game has unlimited range like DW.



< Message edited by ASHBERY76 -- 12/1/2011 6:11:57 PM >

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Post #: 47
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 6:25:38 PM   
Manzikert

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 11/23/2011
Status: offline 		I am not tyring to pile on, but I am very confused how what he is asking for differs from the current implementation?  He seems to be mainly objecting to the painting of that "in-between" space with color which YOU CAN TURN OFF with a filter. 

He does not appear to have any actual gameplay complaints, just display complaints, and those complaints can already be addressed through the current interface, so what is the problem exactly?

(in reply to Cauldyth)
Post #: 48
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 6:27:14 PM   
GenChaos33


Posts: 360
Joined: 9/28/2000
Status: offline 		How does SOI work? How does it get larger? How are planets/moons affected if in SOI? Manual definition is too generic.



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Post #: 49
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 6:39:48 PM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline 		SOI does not influence small parts, it influences systems. Every system in your sphere belongs to your empire. It scales with development and size of a colony.

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Post #: 50
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 7:49:09 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline 		SOI is determined by the colony development score.  Larger colony development, larger circle radius.

I've asked, but as far as I've been able to determine colonies are the only thing that influences SOI -- you can put half a dozen stations in a system, but it provides no SOI benefit.  Also, the SOI is not additive.  A small colony next to a large colony (or in a neighboring system) does not increase the circumference or strength of the SOI -- they simply layer on top of one another in terms of area.  The race of the population on the colony also does not influence SOI -- so a human faction sitting next to a neighbor colony of humans has no greater influence in terms of SOI.

i've suggested a change that models thermodynamic exchange properties, but I think they are satisfied with the current implementation.




< Message edited by Malevolence -- 12/1/2011 7:52:15 PM >

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Post #: 51
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 10:30:41 PM   
Dab42

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 9/29/2011
Status: offline 		It sounds like the new border system would make you think about colonizing those below 50% quality colonies which were mostly never colonized before.

I don't have legends yet though - so, does founding a new colony close to a neighboring empires border cause your border to push out towards theirs?

If it does, then this would be a way to infiltrate. Cascade colonization gradually pushing their border back.

Now you just need an "Abandon Colony" command to get rid of the low quality colonies after you've reached your objective world.

I think a slider for border distance would be an appropriate fix; everyone could be happy with their own favorite setting :)


Off topic: I've many times wished for an "Abandon Colony' command. It would leave the population intact and become an independent world.

More OT: Bases should have populations (small, tiny even). If you had enough population in a system (in bases) to reach a certain threshhold, it would have a small (tiny even) influnce on SOI's.


(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 52
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 10:36:03 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		I know that the next time I find a rare source I can not colonize, I will look desperately for anything remotely colonizable that could bring the spot into my SOI.

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Post #: 53
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 10:41:18 PM   
Nedrear


Posts: 702
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

I know that the next time I find a rare source I can not colonize, I will look desperately for anything remotely colonizable that could bring the spot into my SOI.


Welcome to politics!

Russia: "I am sure our deepsea mountain back follows up to the north pole, does it not?"

*sends out researchers to plant a flag*

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One Thread To Guide Them All

"Nothing incorporeal wields such power as a word. Though it is the weapon of the smart and cunning it alas needs the same to prevail."

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Post #: 54
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/1/2011 10:49:41 PM   
feelotraveller


Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

I know that the next time I find a rare source I can not colonize, I will look desperately for anything remotely colonizable that could bring the spot into my SOI.


No need. Now you just have to declare war on whoever owns it and away you go.

(in reply to Bingeling)
Post #: 55
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/2/2011 12:19:02 AM   
Gelatinous Cube


Posts: 696
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline 		Well.. once again, I like the borders. The free-for-all mish-mash of RotS would make me quit a game as soon as it got too confusing. Real borders are necesarry to prevent every war from being a 10, 15, or 19-front war.

(in reply to feelotraveller)
Post #: 56
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/2/2011 12:20:00 AM   
Moltrey


Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Hmmm... well, in solops' defence, maybe it would be a good idea to discuss just how borders in space should work. I haven't had a lot of time with Legends yet, so, while I am enthused, I can't offer a definitive stance. That being said, the discussion got me thinking about all the numerous space books, shows, games, etc. and how they deal with borders, expansion, enforcement, determents, neutral zones, etc., etc.

I think one indirect factor is that when we start up a game, each race tends to have about the same amount of real estate, depending on your choice of how established the galaxy will be initially. (Maybe that is a future possibility, uneven positions at start?)

Second, my general experience with borders is that you have to be able to back up the positions your race has staked out, or your so-called "influence" is really very small indeed. I think this is the crux of what solops is getting at guys. Just because you have claimed and colonized one planet in a region, in my mind that shouldn't mean that a pre-defined radius from said new colony is always invoked due to claiming one system. Maybe a algorithm that takes into account the size and age of the colony, amount of military presence, and distance from the homeworld. The further away one is from your homeworld, the more "other" factors required to increase or maintain a significant influence. If I can keep a substantial military presence until the colony is above a certain population threshold, then maybe the influence radius increases as the population increases. **shrugs**


Just throwing some thoughts out there on this- I don't believe it is as straight-forward as some here think it is... call it my hunch. Obviously we are all just scratching the surface on gameplay with Legends, but alternative ideas/stances are worth pursuing in my opinion.

(in reply to feelotraveller)
Post #: 57
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/2/2011 9:20:46 AM   
hein

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline 		i think pdwest take border by the good side, border in space may be a sort of cultural sphere which take into acccount the population size, the culture (in dont remember the term in game) and the age of the colony.

(in reply to Moltrey)
Post #: 58
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/2/2011 9:43:38 AM   
HectorOfTroy


Posts: 312
Joined: 1/9/2011
Status: offline 		Keep the borders, say NO to borderless space

(in reply to hein)
Post #: 59
RE: Smothering Sphere of Influence Overdone - 12/2/2011 2:52:02 PM   
Harry2

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, i agree with this notion that the SoI should be based on more than one parameter.

Perhaps it should scale for each empire based on the range of their long range scanners? After all, how do you know if some-one is "sqatting" on your territory when you can't see them?

And general military capability has always been a big measure of an empire's influence in earthly history. Remenber, for much of the 20th century the economic and cultural influence of the Soviet Union on the rest of the world was minor, but it's military influence was huge. So scaling the SoI of each empire could be based on its relative (to the other empires) economic, cultural and , especially, its military (firepower) ratings.

..and a slider to scale the relative amount of the SoI makes sense as well.

(in reply to Moltrey)
Post #: 60
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