RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/1/2011 9:56:56 PM

Mike Solli

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I made a list of things I need to do before I end the turn. Some are pretty quick but others are quite lengthy. I just finished #3.

I did all the conversions I could do. That took awhile. Here's what I did:

Lima: 7 of 7 AKE
Yusen-A: 3 of 7 AK
Akasi: 4 of 4 AD
Ehime: 11 of 11 AG
Ansyu-C: 16 of 54 PB
Kiso: 27 of 35 ACM
Kiso: 26 of 34 PB
To'su: 22 of 22 ACM
To'su: 13 of 14 PB

The one remaining To'su and 16 Kisos are all currently in convoys and the 38 remaining Ansyu-Cs are either in convoys or in ports that can't convert them. I'll convert the rest over the course of the next week or two.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/1/2011 11:01:37 PM

Mike Solli

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Air production:

IJNAF:

A6M2 - 56(22) + 0(22)
B5N1 - 0(16)
B5N2 - 0(16)
D3A1 - 12(20)
E13A1 - 27(0)
E14Y1 - 9(12)
C5M2 - 0(6)
G3M2 - 22(8)
G4M1 - 25(5)
H6K4 - 6(4)
L3Y2 - 0(10)

Notes:
-B5N1 will build out the engine pool then convert to something else. The B5N2 will increase production if necessary.
-E14Y1 will build out the engine pool then convert to something else. That should be enough Glens for the rest of the war.
-C5M2 will keep about a dozen in the pool (if that) until the Irving arrives.

IJAAF:

Ki-43-Ic - 32(18) + 0(32) + 0(32)
Ki-21-IIa - 23(17)
Ki-48-Ib - 34(0)
Ki-46-II - 11(9)
Ki-57-I - 6(4)

Notes:
Ki-43-Ic - I ran out of supply for the 32(18) factory. It'll increase to a total of 64 planes.
Ki-48-Ib will produce until the Sally factory is going full bore. Eventually, this factory will go away and that'll be it for the Lily. I'll use them, but mainly in areas where they're safe from Allied fighters.
Ki-57-I will produce until the engines are gone then upgrade to the Ki-57-II.

On to engines.....

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 12/1/2011 11:18:25 PM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 12:28:27 AM

Mike Solli

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Engines:

Ha-31: 45(0) - no change here. Pool of 245 and need is 40.
Ha-32: 60(40) + 0(40) - Need is 140 with a pool of 45.
Ha-33: 65(60) + 0(60) - Need is 179 with a pool of 116.
Ha-34: 10(0) - No need until 4/42 when the Helen come online. This factory is at Maebashi, where there is no supply currently. When that is fixed, I'll increase the factory to 160 for the 80 Helens. The pool is currently 3.
Ha-35: 180(50) + 0(50) + 0(50) - Need is 318 with a pool of 166. Hopefully, the factories will repair fast enough to keep some in the pool.

Other notes:

The Glen uses the Hitachi Amakaze which is not in production. The pool is 122 and will be expended on Glens over the next 6 months or so.

The Topsy I uses the Ha-5, which is not in production. The pool of 101 will be partly or fully expended on Topsy Is. I haven't decided whether or not to use up the engines or upgrade. We'll see.

The Kate N1 uses the Nakajima Hikari, which is not in production. The pool of 99 will be expended on Kate N1s.

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 12/2/2011 2:34:37 AM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 3:24:54 AM

Redsunrizing

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quote:

Ki-48-Ib will produce until the Sally factory is going full bore. Eventually, this factory will go away and that'll be it for the Lily. I'll use them, but mainly in areas where

Hello Sir, I was wondering if you are not building the Ki-48-family, are you not upgrading your one engine air-groups to two engine. Or are you going to ultimately upgrade the one engine air-groups to Helen's and Sally's?

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 3:28:45 AM

Cribtop

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Mike, the hardest thing for me with the economy (indeed, with the game itself), is that I'm a top down thinker (strong "N" in Myers Briggs). Gary Grigsby was clearly a bottom up, linear thinker in spades, hearts, diamonds and clubs (strong "S" type in Myers Briggs). It's very hard for me to process information in such a left brained way.

In other words, I may know I want 160 Helens per month, and I can look up that they require 2XHa-34s, and I can eventually chase down the factories, etc. But multiply this times 1,000 decisions and I go a little crazy. I've got the memory and brain power but not the stamina to go one step at a time. How do you organize your thoughts? What informational tools do you use to get on top of it?

I hope this makes sense. I've said this before on the economy and my forlorn wish the game had a "setup phase," but often get blank stares from the forum. I'm not sure I can correctly communicate my problem.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 12/2/2011 3:29:39 AM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 4:26:55 AM

jrcar

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Hey Cribtop, I'm a bit like that, big picture guy... Tony is the details guy... ironically I tend to manage the economy overall, where he focus's on the air/engine details. Basically he tells me what he wants, I tell him what he can have and then we make it happen :) I tend to form convoys, he micro manages the routes. This is one of many benefits of team play.

I think a common mistake with the Japanese economy is thinking you have to do it all from turn one. The micro view. At the macro view the economy is very robust at the start, and you can tweak it over time (in fact it is better to do it over time). In many ways it is the impact of your opponants style of play that will drive production decisions... and it takes a while to discern this.

Things you do know, you need more PB's you need some more of the aircraft and they need the engines.

In our game we made very little change to R&D until about 4 months into the war. The biggest changes came about 6 months in once we had determined what we needed to do for the middle game.

Cheers

Rob

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 5:00:16 AM

Cribtop

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Thanks. I feel like I've done what you suggest, Rob, and it's going ok (thanks to many suggestions from Mike S and nygiants, who kindly overlooked my Cowboys fandom). I guess I'm wanting to get up to the next level now and as I try feel a bit hampered again. What I really need is some sort of overview (that's why I am going to cut and paste Mike's post about merchant ship classes) that will allow my big picture brain and great memory to latch on.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 9:02:24 AM

obvert

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Cribtop, I also feel your pain here. I am definitely not a details and left-brained thinker.

I think what is important to me is just repetition and time looking into certain parts of the map on different turns. I will take a turn and micromanage the Float Plane training one turn, and do merchant upgrades another turn. But when I do one thing I'll do ALL of it in a focused way rather than popping around that turn.

As Jocke is away for a day last night I was able to take time and really look into what had been left after the starting few turns. I checked to see what conversions I could still make on ships that had been part of a convoy and just got back into a port with a shipyard, and which ships I wanted to be AVs or AKEs. I looked at my numbers for pilots training (thanks for that list Mike, which gave me the idea to go in and look at mine) and made some tweaks there. I turned off upgrades and replacements for all but several air units that I want to change and increase.

I guess about once a week I take time to do something like this on a deeper level. Each time I do it i understand a bit more and (hopefully) I'll retain that information.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 12:13:18 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Notes:
-B5N1 will build out the engine pool then convert to something else. The B5N2 will increase production if necessary.

One nice thing is that the B5N1 will auto upgrade to the B5N2. I do what you plan with the initial B5N2 (build up to about 15 - 20), but then I let the B5N1 upgrade once it runs out of engines. Save me the 15K - 20K of supply of having to further expand the B5N2 factory.

Just a thought ...

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 12:22:30 PM

Erkki

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Notes:
-B5N1 will build out the engine pool then convert to something else. The B5N2 will increase production if necessary.

One nice thing is that the B5N1 will auto upgrade to the B5N2. I do what you plan with the initial B5N2 (build up to about 15 - 20), but then I let the B5N1 upgrade once it runs out of engines. Save me the 15K - 20K of supply of having to further expand the B5N2 factory.

Just a thought ...

Yeah... Except it doesnt upgrade to N2.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 12:23:19 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ki-21-IIa - 23(17)
Ki-48-Ib - 34(0)
Ki-48-Ib will produce until the Sally factory is going full bore. Eventually, this factory will go away and that'll be it for the Lily.

OK, I gotta ask: How do you get by with so few IJA 2E's? You've got 74 total, which is below the bottom of my build target. I have to aim for 80 - 120 monthly (that's of Sally's too I might add). Even then, I wish I had more but I can't afford them. I'm guessing that you do less ground support than I do? Maybe I'm doing too much? Generally my losses aren't that bad, but there are so many group to first fill out, then replace those useless 1E's.

You've got me worried that I'm missing something here ....

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 12:36:23 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Engines:

Ha-31: 45(0) - no change here. Pool of 245 and need is 40.
Ha-32: 60(40) + 0(40) - Need is 140 with a pool of 45.
Ha-33: 65(60) + 0(60) - Need is 179 with a pool of 116.
Ha-34: 10(0) - No need until 4/42 when the Helen come online. This factory is at Maebashi, where there is no supply currently. When that is fixed, I'll increase the factory to 160 for the 80 Helens. The pool is currently 3.
Ha-35: 180(50) + 0(50) + 0(50) - Need is 318 with a pool of 166. Hopefully, the factories will repair fast enough to keep some in the pool.

Other notes:

The Glen uses the Hitachi Amakaze which is not in production. The pool is 122 and will be expended on Glens over the next 6 months or so.

The Topsy I uses the Ha-5, which is not in production. The pool of 101 will be partly or fully expended on Topsy Is. I haven't decided whether or not to use up the engines or upgrade. We'll see.

The Kate N1 uses the Nakajima Hikari, which is not in production. The pool of 99 will be expended on Kate N1s.

Don't forget that the Tojo uses the Ha-34. You will need a LOT of 34's by Q3Y42.
I tend to put additional engine factories to the 32 and 33 to allow faster ramp of my a/c factories. But then I also tend to run pretty tight supply the first 3 months of the war. Maybe too tight? I think I'll go back to my analyses and move my supply margin up a bit based upon what you're doing here.

What daily supply rate do you allow for combat operation support? I use 10K/day until Feb42 at which point I generally have no further problems ...

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 12:38:44 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Notes:
-B5N1 will build out the engine pool then convert to something else. The B5N2 will increase production if necessary.

One nice thing is that the B5N1 will auto upgrade to the B5N2. I do what you plan with the initial B5N2 (build up to about 15 - 20), but then I let the B5N1 upgrade once it runs out of engines. Save me the 15K - 20K of supply of having to further expand the B5N2 factory.

Just a thought ...

Yeah... Except it doesnt upgrade to N2.

Really? OK, let me check that again, I could have sworn it did ...

EDIT: You are of course correct! <head slap!> How did I miss that? <another head slap>

Ok, back to drawing board. Gotta see if this is still a good idea. 91eng x 18HI = 1638 HI vs 10K supply to build up the a/c factory .... mmmm not so sure now ...

ARGH!!!

Thanks for pointing this out to me!!

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 12/2/2011 12:42:56 PM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 12:39:30 PM

Erkki

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Yeah so did I-

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 12:41:57 PM

n01487477

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Notes:
-B5N1 will build out the engine pool then convert to something else. The B5N2 will increase production if necessary.

One nice thing is that the B5N1 will auto upgrade to the B5N2. I do what you plan with the initial B5N2 (build up to about 15 - 20), but then I let the B5N1 upgrade once it runs out of engines. Save me the 15K - 20K of supply of having to further expand the B5N2 factory.

Just a thought ...

Yeah... Except it doesnt upgrade to N2.

Really? OK, let me check that again, I could have sworn it did ...

The 6 does not the 5 ... [edit] and what are these B5N1 factories you speak of in the beginning ? We are talking Scen 1 ?

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 12/2/2011 12:43:12 PM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 1:02:12 PM

Mike Solli

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Gotta run to a semi-annual teeth cleaning. Lots of great discussion and questions. Getting me thinking. I'll be back and babble about it soon.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 1:27:33 PM

ny59giants

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I made a shreadsheet with airframes at start on page 1 and then page 2 was R&D through 43. Look at what you have and what you need want to expand each (if at all) to over the first few months. Then, where you will focus your R&D efforts on. For most players, your fighters take priority. I expanded the Glen factory to get what I want for the whole war so I can convert the factory rather than produce only 9 planes per month.

The use of the "Planning" tab for Engines within Tracker is one of my biggest aids for Engine production (thank you Damian and Floyd

). I've made some mistakes in Scenario 2 with some overproduction as I didn't look into 43 and 44 for those fighters (Frank and George) that would need massive expansion. I also think that Vehicles needs to steadily increase to 200, especially in Scenario 2 players as you get those extra armor formations that eat it up.

I'm a relatively new Japanese player, so I would say that Scenario 2 is best for your learning curve in running the economy. Airframes and Engines were difficult in the beginning, but now the question for me is how much Heavy Industry expansion and Refinery to do. I know some want to get all that Oil to Honshu, but if I'm playing the Allies, the Refineries are next to modern Airframes as primary targets in Japan.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 1:29:34 PM

n01487477

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Remember also the B5N2 is an important ASW asset later when the MAD becomes active...this probably has been pointed out before but seems to get forgotten sometimes.

I'd plan on keeping at least one factory or enough to use when the subs become a real menace.

I've enjoyed reading some of the input here. I disagree with some of it, but it is all food for thought.

Mike I hope you don't mind if I add a link to this AAR in my Econ setup doc and also expand on some of it in said doc.

Actually, I don't know how you do it all without Tracker

I should stop developing it and release a bunch of xls files

Cheers

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 1:39:55 PM

Erkki

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quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Remember also the B5N2 is an important ASW asset later when the MAD becomes active...this probably has been pointed out before but seems to get forgotten sometimes.

I'd plan on keeping at least one factory or enough to use when the subs become a real menace.

I've enjoyed reading some of the input here. I disagree with some of it, but it is all food for thought.

Mike I hope you don't mind if I add a link to this AAR in my Econ setup doc and also expand on some of it in said doc.

Actually, I don't know how you do it all without Tracker I should stop developing it and release a bunch of xls files

Cheers

Yeah it has the MAD... Which adds 5% to detection. B5N2 has normal range of 7 - is that 3 or 4 for ASW?

Army 2Es, B5Ns and Netties can probably do the ASW job better... But its still a good 1E kami.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 2:30:47 PM

hkbhsi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Don't forget that the Tojo uses the Ha-34. You will need a LOT of 34's by Q3Y42.

After the last official patch and data update, the Tojo is equipped with the Ha-35 engine.

< Message edited by hkbhsi -- 12/2/2011 2:33:52 PM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 3:11:58 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Don't forget that the Tojo uses the Ha-34. You will need a LOT of 34's by Q3Y42.

After the last official patch and data update, the Tojo is equipped with the Ha-35 engine.

I show Ha-34 .... need someone "official" to arbitrate ... Damian, what do you have?

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 3:14:52 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Remember also the B5N2 is an important ASW asset later when the MAD becomes active...

Damian,

You label this "important" ... is it? I haven't tested, but 5% bonus to detection doesn't seem very high. Most of the allied surface search radars are 30% or more ....

I have no idea what the base detection level is for naval search, so I have no feel as to what 5% more would do.

Appreciate any thoughts/experiences/clarification you can add here.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 12/2/2011 3:15:14 PM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 3:22:42 PM

Erkki

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Ki-44 series is definitely using Ha-34, together with the Ki-49s.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 3:23:47 PM

pws1225

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Don't forget that the Tojo uses the Ha-34. You will need a LOT of 34's by Q3Y42.

After the last official patch and data update, the Tojo is equipped with the Ha-35 engine.

I show Ha-34 .... need someone "official" to arbitrate ... Damian, what do you have?

For what it's worth, the Editor says the Tojo (all models) use the Ha-35. This is based on the latest database and the 1108r4 beta.

< Message edited by pws1225 -- 12/2/2011 3:25:38 PM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 3:31:44 PM

hkbhsi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Don't forget that the Tojo uses the Ha-34. You will need a LOT of 34's by Q3Y42.

After the last official patch and data update, the Tojo is equipped with the Ha-35 engine.

I show Ha-34 .... need someone "official" to arbitrate ... Damian, what do you have?

For what it's worth, the Editor says the Tojo (all models) use the Ha-35. This is based on the latest database and the 1108r4 beta.

I just checked in the editor and the Tojo uses the Ha-34 in scenario 1 and the Ha-35 in scenario 2.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 3:34:04 PM

obvert

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I knew there must be a reason behind my confusion on this one. I was playing Scen 2 and had prepared the Ha-35 for the Tojo, but now I'm in Scen 1 and in tracker it does list the Ha-34. Got it.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 3:41:16 PM

Mundy

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I don't want to distract too much from Mike's AAR, but it's a relavent question...

As someone who's been too chicken to play the Japanese side, yet, I see a line of thought that aircraft are "competing" for a particular engine.

Shouldn't having several aircraft using a common engine streamline things, as long as production for that engine is ramped up sufficiently? I would think simplifying the production chains would be a good thing.

Ed-

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 3:48:41 PM

Erkki

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I don't want to distract too much from Mike's AAR, but it's a relavent question...

As someone who's been too chicken to play the Japanese side, yet, I see a line of thought that aircraft are "competing" for a particular engine.

Shouldn't having several aircraft using a common engine streamline things, as long as production for that engine is ramped up sufficiently? I would think simplifying the production chains would be a good thing.

Ed-

Yup! And sometimes a plane just isnt worth of it, partially or fully thanks to the engine its using. Q1W1 comes to mind... But often a plane is so good, or better than the next best option, that it is just a must to produce even if only few no other plane uses the engine: D4Y series and B6N1 for example. Then some that use a common engine but are so crap they shouldn't be produced let alone used at all: IMHO the Ki-48 �berbomber falls in that group.

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Post #: 178

RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 3:53:58 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

I just checked in the editor and the Tojo uses the Ha-34 in scenario 1 and the Ha-35 in scenario 2.

Just posted this in the Air Thread. Not sure if this is WAD or if this was an oversight when the Tojo was corrected to the Ha-34 (it acutally did use the Ha-34).

Mike, sorry for the hyperbole here. I've never played Scen 2 and didn't realize this difference existed.

Anyway, Mike is playing Scen 1 here (I beleive), so he needs to plan for the Ha-34 in the Tojo.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 12/2/2011 3:55:08 PM >

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Pax

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Post #: 179

RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 12/2/2011 4:05:30 PM

Mundy

Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline

Thanks Erkki,

Yeah, I would never set up aircraft production purely around a given engine. But I figure keeping the tree from spiderwebbing out too much would be a good thing.

I have a pbem with one of my brothers, and we were discussing this very thing a few times. I think he was considering producing the Mabel for this reason. (can't remember who also uses its engine)

Damien's excellent production tutorial will have me giving this a try before too long.

My thanks to Mike for this AAR. You're an excellent teacher, sir.

Ed-

(in reply to Erkki)

Post #: 180

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