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RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/2/2011 5:25:13 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Having been around this forum for almost two years, I'm still a bit perplexed why there IS such a divide between the JFB and the AFB.



I don't think there really is such a divide. Only among a few people, and they are together in being so divided. Now that I've cleared that up...

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 31
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/2/2011 5:26:43 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I've played both sides and if I had to choose, I would probably fall into the AFB side. I think Tracker was the only reason I got into playing Japan (plus the call to rescue John 3rd economy back in his epic struggle vs Canoerebel with Damian's help ). I think any new game as Japan, which will be years away, will have me doing more to push the envelope further out. India and China have both almost been conquered, but I'm waiting for the AAR that shows how to conquer all of Australia. I have my own theory that I would want to try (using Scenario 2 of course ).




Those were the days. Calling for immediate assistance from this guy I barely knew living in Tennessee! Dan was lucky there. Operation Downfall NEARLY worked! Who, but an unrepentant JFB, would actually launch an amphibious invasion of India in 1945 with 500,000+ Troops??!! Darn near worked.

I was let down by the AI, the weather, climate change, the Democrats, and the Kansas City Royals who haven't known how to play baseball since George Brett retired.

The RANT above also is a JFB Trait. it couldn't be the FACT that the Japanese are doomed to lose. Heck NO: WE CAN STILL WIN!

Right???


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 12/2/2011 5:27:29 PM >

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Post #: 32
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/2/2011 5:46:03 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I've played both sides and if I had to choose, I would probably fall into the AFB side. I think Tracker was the only reason I got into playing Japan (plus the call to rescue John 3rd economy back in his epic struggle vs Canoerebel with Damian's help ). I think any new game as Japan, which will be years away, will have me doing more to push the envelope further out. India and China have both almost been conquered, but I'm waiting for the AAR that shows how to conquer all of Australia. I have my own theory that I would want to try (using Scenario 2 of course ).




Those were the days. Calling for immediate assistance from this guy I barely knew living in Tennessee! Dan was lucky there. Operation Downfall NEARLY worked! Who, but an unrepentant JFB, would actually launch an amphibious invasion of India in 1945 with 500,000+ Troops??!! Darn near worked.

I was let down by the AI, the weather, climate change, the Democrats, and the Kansas City Royals who haven't known how to play baseball since George Brett retired.

The RANT above also is a JFB Trait. it couldn't be the FACT that the Japanese are doomed to lose. Heck NO: WE CAN STILL WIN!

Right???



Well we may not win, but we sure will make the AFBs work for it, won't we?

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Post #: 33
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/2/2011 5:47:34 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
The RANT above also is a JFB Trait. it couldn't be the FACT that the Japanese are doomed to lose. Heck NO: WE CAN STILL WIN!

Right???



Obviously sir.......you have never experienced the Rantific beauty that is the player two "This Pearl Harbor attack BLOWS! I lost more than 2 BBs!!!!!" thread.

And no Player one can win........EVER.....with me at the helm of the economy. (what does this button do? oooooo expand factory!!!!)


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Post #: 34
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/2/2011 6:06:35 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		...but I REALLY wanted to build 5000 USELESS engines no human being ever wanted! (Followed by an immediate phone call to Tennessee: "Ahhhhh...Michael...how do you FIX...)

OMG...you sunk 3 BBs at PH! That is WRONG! I only get about a gadzillion more to pulverize you with...I may cry...I might quit...this game is BROKEN...

OK. Nik is right about rants working BOTH sides.




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Post #: 35
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/2/2011 6:10:09 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Come on now. Who are we kidding? All Japanese Fanboys are closet masochists. You know the type. "Whip me, beat me, make me use Nates."

Actually I think the best Japanese players are highly organized and detail orientated. It is a must becase the Japanese side just does not allow room for any major mistakes.

That said, I love to play the Allies. However, for me the best and most exciting time to play the Allies is 1942 versus a crack Japanese player. Believe me, it is not easy and requires some damn good play. After 42, it is still fun but I don't lay awake a night worrying about my next move anymore.

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Post #: 36
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/2/2011 6:15:59 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

"Whip me, beat me, make me use Nates."


Fantastic!

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

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Post #: 37
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/2/2011 6:41:07 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

quote:

"Whip me, beat me, make me use Nates."


Fantastic!



Shhhhhh...Nates are a SECRET weapon in 1945...


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Post #: 38
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/2/2011 6:50:13 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Characterizing AFBs as liking easy mode while JFBs as liking a challenge is rather simplistic at best.

One of the beauties of depictions of the course of WWII or plausible alternatives is the "turning of the tide".

The early game equals easy mode for the Axis (hold all the cards, has overwhelming superiority, easily dictates the course of the game) and hard mode for the Allies (starts unprepared, caught off balance, scrambles just to hold onto to anything) and after the "turning of the tide" the late game equals easy mode for the Allies (holds all the cards, has overwhelmimg superiority, easily dictates the course of the game) and hard mode for the Axis (somehow manages to become unprepared, caught off balance, scrambles just to hold onto anything).........



I spent the early years of my wargaming playing French/Russian or Brit/US in three way games of Third Reich, not because I have any great love for playing Allies, but because my particular talent lies in defending and counterpunching.

Most games when I took Germany/Italy the game went down the tubes early because I just wanted talented at dictating the course of events as the early agressor.

However, the reverse was just as true for my buddy who regularly took the Axis. Games where he took an Allied side usually went down the tubes early beacuse his natural flair for the attack, left him in the position of being a dsmal defender/counterattacker.

Preferences for sides are often dictated by virtue of where one's talents reside.


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Post #: 39
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/2/2011 6:54:31 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		3R was a fine game. IS I suppose if there are people that still play it. In general I don't like playing the Axis, just because they're Axis, but wind up playing them about half the time, because someone has to do it.

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 40
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/2/2011 10:17:43 PM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


JFBs like being the underdog. But we get to be the overdog for a while....and how we play that while determines how long we get to play it. It's a fascinating juxtaposition.




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Post #: 41
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/2/2011 11:00:46 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		I like playing both sides.

Not sure what conclusions can be drawn from that




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Post #: 42
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 12:39:26 AM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		I think that any person that takes up the underdog position is a pretty special person.

short bus special, but a special person none the less

Seriously though, I never played the Japanese because I just don't want to deal with the economy even against the AI. The player that takes the time to master that portion of the game deserves a round of applause. The Allied player that masters the art of deception and counter punch to survive the dark times of 41/42 also deserve a round of applause.

< Message edited by oldman45 -- 12/3/2011 12:41:22 AM >

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Post #: 43
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 12:40:16 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

I like playing both sides.

Not sure what conclusions can be drawn from that


You're normal?

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Post #: 44
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 1:48:39 AM   
Mistmatz

 

Posts: 1399
Joined: 10/16/2005
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quote:

uman being ever wanted! (Followed by an immediate phone call to Tennessee: "Ahhhhh...Michael...how do you FIX...)

OMG...you sunk 3 BBs at PH! That is WRONG! I only get about a gadzillion more to pulverize you with...I may cry...I might quit...this game is BROKEN...

OK. Nik is right about rants working BOTH sides.


Nobody playing this... thing... can be called normal.

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http://witp-ae.wikia.com/wiki/War_in_the_Pacific:_Admiral%27s_Edition_Wiki


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Post #: 45
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 2:23:29 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

Nobody playing this...


Play? I am considered to be a scholar on important historical research..

my research includes but is not limited to:

1) modifying the mechanics of the simulation to be as accurate as possible
2) modifying the initial deployments to understand the viability of various campaigns

all done for the knowledge and betterment of.. excuse me

*102xSally, 89xKi-43 approaching manila*

my research is calling ..finish this later..

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Post #: 46
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 2:33:10 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		oh while i am here..

AFB says

http://lemairesoft.sytes.net:1945/weben/avion/stats/11066.html#18167

please look at this and fix the AC numbers
*separate steel and aluminum would be nice for IJ production*

and

*max engines expansion 100 per month*

btw good job everyone, i am convinced the AE simulation is about 95% accurate
(a big step in the right direction from WITP vanilla)

few more things needed:
1) separate steel and aluminum to keep AC numbers realistic

2) include ammo supply for AC (ships have ammo so why not AC?)

3) get rid of the whole *units* concept for AC,
give the player lots of empty TO&E slots to fill as we wish

JFB says

want control over AC research.. give me control over the 12 AC design teams
and i can tell them what to research, and what features i want in the designs



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Post #: 47
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 3:01:20 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
few more things needed:
1) separate steel and aluminum to keep AC numbers realistic


Before separating steel and aluminum, combat supplies should be separated from non-combat supplies (like food). The problem is that the game engine just isn't built to do it. Resources (oil, fuel, resources, and supply) are designed to be abstracted and there really isn't any decent way to separate them further.

quote:


2) include ammo supply for AC (ships have ammo so why not AC?)


This is abstracted in the game engine. When planes engage in combat several times in a turn (such as CAP engaging multiple raids), planes tend to diminish on CAP with subsequent raids because CAP run low on ammo or fuel and need to land. This isn't done with an ammo count per plane, but with a random roll. It works more or less. Servicing aircraft does consume supply at a base, so there is a supply element to aircraft ammo built in too.

quote:


3) get rid of the whole *units* concept for AC,
give the player lots of empty TO&E slots to fill as we wish


This would be a major change that would require a major rewrite of the code, plus a major reworking of the air units data. I think the air units the way they are give the game far more realism than what you propose.

There are hundreds of ideas the design team kicked around. Some were feasible, but they didn't make the cut when prioritized and others were way beyond what this engine was capable of. Maybe a number of them will see the light of day in a new game designed from the ground up, but there are not going to be many major changes to AE. The engine is close to maxxed out in what it's capable of.

Bill


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Post #: 48
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 3:31:31 AM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline 		I always choose Axis in order to dispel the myth of Allied invincibility & prevent the spread of pestilence.



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Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
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Post #: 49
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 3:54:02 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

It works more or less









F4F-3 has 450 rounds per gun, F4F-4 has 240 rounds per gun, F6F has 400 rounds per gun
including it in accuracy seems to be fine

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 12/3/2011 4:05:10 AM >

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Post #: 50
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 4:08:30 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		food versus ammo is a tough one.. probably leave it the same for now

as for the TO&E, with the editor you can have lots of group (72 plane) slots that are empty
(put 1 texan or other trainer in each) and the player can fill them as he/she chooses

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Production/Japan/Military-production.htm

AE works on the principle of "it all balances out"
Would prefer an RTS style production system
(Ki-43 costs 2 tons of duralumin, 25,000 man hours to produce),
engines separate is good as it is

player can set up the production line (with a delay, say 3 months to switch aiframe type)

players can choose what ships to lay down (with a materials cost and production time)

for every 50 tonnes of HI points of steel, you get 1 ton of Aluminum

just saying, that's what types of decisions those dictators sitting in their bunkers were busy thinking about

AE is a major step up in realism from Witp (well done everybody), especially the air combat routine
a few more years and it can become a perfectly accurate war simulator

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Post #: 51
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 4:31:39 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

I always choose Axis in order to dispel the myth of Allied invincibility & prevent the spread of pestilence.




The girl who posed for that poster. Wonder what the hell her parents said when they saw it.....?


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Post #: 52
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 5:09:43 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Come on now. Who are we kidding? All Japanese Fanboys are closet masochists. You know the type. "Whip me, beat me, make me use Nates."

Actually I think the best Japanese players are highly organized and detail orientated. It is a must because the Japanese side just does not allow room for any major mistakes.

> crsutton - I sincerely believe that the above is true. Your statement is very illuminating; and helps me to better comprehend why I thoroughly enjoy the hours detailing the Japanese shipping, air production and economy. Attention to detail leads to a better understanding of how it all works, greater confidence in one's own abilities and a feeling of accomplishment.

That said, I love to play the Allies. However, for me the best and most exciting time to play the Allies is 1942 versus a crack Japanese player. Believe me, it is not easy and requires some damn good play. After 42, it is still fun but I don't lay awake a night worrying about my next move anymore.


> Very well put, Sir. In truth, I am an AE Fan Boy - who's first goal is to develop a level of competence in managing all aspects of the Japanese side - perhaps because my perception is that this is, the most challenging side to play in the long term. On the other hand, I also, take the time to play the Allies, to become more familiar with the other side of the pond (and have enjoyed playing the Good Guys just as much as the Bad Boys!). Nemo once opined that a player who is (at least) familiar with both sides is better balanced and more knowledgeable; I have taken this to heart. There is no doubt, as articulated above, that the first six months of the war requires a very high standard of performance from the Allied player.

Mac

< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 12/3/2011 5:27:29 AM >

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Post #: 53
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 5:14:45 PM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		I would agree on both points. JFBs tend to be more OCD (looks in mirror) (looks at Mike Solli ) and that playing both sides helps your overall game.

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Post #: 54
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 5:30:34 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		At heart I'm an AFB playing the Japanese side. I love the economics and learning it from some of the masters , taking notes and creating plans of my own from bits and pieces of what I've learned has been a great ride over the past 7-8 months.

If a non gamer or friend looked at my various plans and notes on the Japanese system they'd come to the conclusion something is wrong with me. Heck , taking a step back, they may have come to that conclusion already.

Playing the Allied side I've always become somewhat disinterested when I've started to get toys. I like the game best when I'm on my heels , getting kicked around and finding a way to create a victory whether it be land, sea or air , that's where I get the most satisfaction. It's been hard for me to get in the frame of mind being the attacker and I'm still working at finding ways to sustain the initiative by fixing what I see as weaknesses in my game.

When that is complete I hope one of the regulars will beat me down. If you're playing this game for the right reasons it doesn't matter what the score is only the ride and who is riding shotgun is what counts, IMHO.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 12/3/2011 5:33:57 PM >

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Post #: 55
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 5:59:08 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

At heart I'm an AFB playing the Japanese side. I love the economics and learning it from some of the masters , taking notes and creating plans of my own from bits and pieces of what I've learned has been a great ride over the past 7-8 months.

If a non gamer or friend looked at my various plans and notes on the Japanese system they'd come to the conclusion something is wrong with me. Heck , taking a step back, they may have come to that conclusion already.

Playing the Allied side I've always become somewhat disinterested when I've started to get toys. I like the game best when I'm on my heels , getting kicked around and finding a way to create a victory whether it be land, sea or air , that's where I get the most satisfaction. It's been hard for me to get in the frame of mind being the attacker and I'm still working at finding ways to sustain the initiative by fixing what I see as weaknesses in my game.

When that is complete I hope one of the regulars will beat me down. If you're playing this game for the right reasons it doesn't matter what the score is only the ride and who is riding shotgun is what counts, IMHO.


You echo my feelings exactly here! All except for the new toys part. I like new toys!

But it really is a great challenge to do something special without as many things available.

To use another sports analogy, playing the Japanese side might be like Chaminade playing Viginia in 1982. No one would ever think the boys from Hawaii had a chance, but with a good coach and an inovative system, a lot of hustle and determination, you never know what might happen.

http://www.mmbolding.com/basketball/Chaminade.htm

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 56
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 6:40:01 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I am secretly a Chinese fanboy.

Oh dear. I hope I haven't overshared.


A Chinese "ace" is any pilot who makes it to 40 experience in one lifetime. A Chinese top of the line fighter has fabric wings and was given away to charity by the Russians in 1928.

A Chinese "Army" has 3000 men, half of whom can't use chopsticks and one quarter of whom are not toilet trained.

Then there is the Chinese economy. I always accelerate the construction of the undergound bean curd plant in Chengtu. Ahhh...good times.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 57
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 7:05:26 PM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline
quote:

The girl who posed for that poster. Wonder what the hell her parents said when they saw it.....?

lol I dont know who she was but they probably choked!

_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

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Post #: 58
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 7:08:17 PM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline 		mdiehl,
quote:

3R was a fine game. IS I suppose if there are people that still play it. In general I don't like playing the Axis, just because they're Axis, but wind up playing them about half the time, because someone has to do it.

You sound like a fine candidate for World in Flames too!! Of course Ill be running the Axis so you wont have to eat your spam. I love it! Im having spam spam eggs bacon & spam!!

_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

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Post #: 59
RE: JFB vs. AFB personalities - 12/3/2011 8:34:38 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Is there not a WIF thread?

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Post #: 60
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