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Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 12:15:55 PM

David The Great

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I am starting a game as allies against a friend of mine, we are playing without any house rules, surprise on and no historical first turn.
My question is what to look out for as allies, what is possible for the japanese and what are the possibilities as allied player ?
How far can the Japanese strike on turn 1 with their special task forces?
What are the best tactics against this ?
What to look out for with no rules ( besides plain cheating ) ?

Greetings

David

Post #: 1

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 12:47:39 PM

Canoerebel

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What Scenario?

Without house rules, your weakest link is China. Here's how Japan might orchestrate the beginning of the game:

1) Strike deep around the South China Sea to isolate Palembang and make sure you can't pull a Fortress Palembang defense. Likely target: Singkawang.

2) Get things underway in Burma ASAP, incuding using paratroops, to sever the Burma Road and isolate China.

3) Use PP to buy out lots of Kwangchung army units and transfer them to China. Use strategic bombing to eliminate Chinese industry and supply and to prevent base building. Wipe out China.

China can be a real, real problem for even an experienced Allied player. For more insight into this, seek out crsutton.

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Post #: 2

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 1:06:16 PM

Erkki

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Without house rules Japan can immediately move a huge army from Manchuria to take out China. Fall back to better terrain ASAP.

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RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 1:52:11 PM

David The Great

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we play scenario 1, regarding china, it works both ways, nothing prevents me from pouring in indian or other troops. Anyhow, it is going to be an interesting game.

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Post #: 4

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 2:15:02 PM

AW1Steve

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Expect him to do everything he can to interdict any breakout from Manila or the other PI ports. Expect him to lay submarine mines (I'd send out minesweepers before sending any ship's out of Manila) . I'd also use one of your fighter squadrons to provide LCAP for the same ships. And have them escorted as he will send surface groups and submarines to attack them . I have NEVER had an opponent "just let them go". Most JFB players are greedy , and want to sink any ships they can , especially those that might be carrying troops to safety.

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Post #: 5

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 2:17:54 PM

David The Great

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I think his special Tf's can reach any hex on the map , what precautions should be taken to guard against port attacks on manilla, singapore, PH, San diego etc.... ?

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Post #: 6

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 2:19:01 PM

bigred

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Alot of players use house rules to manage the dirty tricks. so if you look at the first post of an AAR game you will see the restrictions used to manage the dirty tricks. Personally I regret entering into a no rules game because now the jap manchuko garrison has been used to really destroy my position in china. Live and learn. I do believe now if you play a no rules game then you should play RHS101 to insure the russians can attack if the japs pull down the manchurian garrison.

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Post #: 7

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 2:20:48 PM

AW1Steve

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Set your fighters to 100% CAP, if permitted. You can evacuate ships , but it's usually considered "gamey". Usually as the allied player , you just have to sit there and take it. Almost any reaction will be considered "gamey". Sorry.

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RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 2:22:42 PM

David The Great

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What tactics work best to hurt the japanese ? Strategic warfare ? guerillia tactics ? or head on surface and carier battles ?

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RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 2:25:46 PM

David The Great

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Gamey is no point in our game, anything the game engine allows is ok, besides outright cheating. Sinking the POW and Repulse on turn 1 "for play balance " is gamey to me .

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Post #: 10

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 2:29:21 PM

bigred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David The Great

What tactics work best to hurt the japanese ? Strategic warfare ? guerillia tactics ? or head on surface and carier battles ?

You can stand up to the japs in surface combat IF the japs do not have air superiority. For a beginner I would define air superiority as either
A. you start to see betties torpedo your ships(they have a 17 hex range) or
b. You notice carrier air starting to operate in your Area of operations. In either case you will be forced to withdraw or you will lose ships.

1. Do not try to use allied carriers in combat ops until all you ftr sqns are at 36 strenght and have the f4f AND you positive spot the KB and are not within 3 days sailing distance.

< Message edited by bigred -- 12/7/2011 2:31:19 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 2:31:43 PM

AW1Steve

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Now you get into the area of opinion. I'm a great beliver in the "Sir Robin strategy". My feelings is that the allies, combined properly, HAD suffient forces to stop the Japanese cold. BUT the forces were set up to do "Colonial policework" , not warfighting. They were in the worst possible configuration to wage war. So you need to salvage as many of those forces , withdraw them, assemble them more effieciently , resupply , provide new leadership and in some cases retrain them. If you leave them in place (which you will have to with a great many) they will die. The best you can do is a "fighting withdrawal" , and try to save as much as you can , till you feel strong enough to go on the counter offensive. Some people say in two weeks, others two years. (I like somewhere in between!

).

But as I said , this is strickly my thoughts. Nemo and Greyjoy and many others have a different mind set.

Good luck on your new endeavor. Feel free to email or PM me if I can be any help.

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 12/7/2011 2:32:50 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 3:34:01 PM

Canoerebel

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Against a capable and experienced IJ player, the Allies won't be able to reinforce China in any kind of meaningful way. The Japanese player can easily put a stop to that. On the other hand, Japan can literally pour units into China. Under that scenario, there is a very grave risk of losing China.

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Post #: 13

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 3:36:40 PM

Mundy

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Yep. There's nothing like getting stiffarmed by the Malay Peninsula.

Ed-

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Post #: 14

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 3:42:15 PM

David The Great

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And what about the allies ? Any thoughts on what they can do to prevent a Japanese victory ?

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RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 4:09:07 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
My feelings is that the allies, combined properly, HAD suffient forces to stop the Japanese cold. BUT the forces were set up to do "Colonial policework" , not warfighting.

Meh. I don't share this opinion. In the early war, the Japanese enjoyed a qualitative and quantative advantage in most meaningful measures of warfighting ability.

Now, if you're suggesting that the Allies could have held a handful of strategic defensive strongpoints more effectively by concentrating their mass, then perhaps there's some truth behind that. But 'stop the Japanese cold'? Everywhere the Japanese advanced? Not likely.

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RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 4:15:41 PM

Canoerebel

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Against an experienced and capable IJ player, an Allied player is best served by remaining flexible until he knows what he's facing. Look for opportunities to sting with small CL/DD combat TFs. Look for opportunities (look very, very carefully - no big chances taken) to sting with capital ships and carriers. Look for chances to strike where your enemy isn't focused - flanks and rear areas. Look for chances to reinforce garrisons or occupy outposts that complicate your opponent's job and slows him down. About the only "no house rules" thing I can think of that you can make use of early in the war is to use subs and fast transports for some non-base invasions to cut supply lines, but use it judiciously as your opponent will catch on and do the same to you (so save that trick for a decisive moment).

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Post #: 17

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 4:27:31 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Expect him to do everything he can to interdict any breakout from Manila or the other PI ports. Expect him to lay submarine mines (I'd send out minesweepers before sending any ship's out of Manila) . I'd also use one of your fighter squadrons to provide LCAP for the same ships. And have them escorted as he will send surface groups and submarines to attack them . I have NEVER had an opponent "just let them go". Most JFB players are greedy , and want to sink any ships they can , especially those that might be carrying troops to safety.

Waiting for minesweepers to sweep the Bataan or Manila hexes of mines is problematic. If those ships don't scramble on day one, they're meat on the table. You're just asking for either surface interdiction of fleeing ships or-more likely-brutal air attacks from Formosa's Betty and Nell IJNAF torpedo squadrons. It will take a couple days for the minesweepers to do their work. You don't have the luxury of that time for anything in Manila.

USAAF LRCAP of USN TFs is problematic. A thoughtful Japanese player will escort his Bettys with A6M2s from Formosa, thus negating the partial coverage offered by this mechanism. Also, if you're LRCAPing the fleeing TF, that's air cover you don't have over Manila. With the scarce Allied fighter support at Luzon, which is it going to be-CAPing Manila or inefficiently LRCAPing a naval TF?

Escorting xAK or TK or other civilian TFs leaving the area is partially effective at warding off submarines. However, with few exceptions, escorting warships that loiter, or attach themselves to slow-moving xAK or other merchants, will enhance the probability of their own destruction by various means.

For the Allied navies, it's pretty simple really: As Allies in the early war, if you fight in place, you'll die in place. If you delay getting out of the hot zone with whatever you wish to extricate, you'll lose it. Get out now, get out fast. Delay=death.

Salvage what you can, upgrade it and send it back into the fray after its crew gains experience and better defensive weaponry. Oh, if it's accompanied by a couple Essex class CVs, that's OK too.

Lastly, I'm not greedy as a Japanese player. Just bloodthirsty.

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RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 4:37:57 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
My feelings is that the allies, combined properly, HAD suffient forces to stop the Japanese cold. BUT the forces were set up to do "Colonial policework" , not warfighting.

Meh. I don't share this opinion. In the early war, the Japanese enjoyed a qualitative and quantative advantage in most meaningful measures of warfighting ability.

Now, if you're suggesting that the Allies could have held a handful of strategic defensive strongpoints more effectively by concentrating their mass, then perhaps there's some truth behind that. But 'stop the Japanese cold'? Everywhere the Japanese advanced? Not likely.

The only way to prove/disprove my theory would be 1) to allow a MASSIVE data base change allowing the allied player to move , change ,delete,re-inforce,and restructure nearly EVERY unit. 2) give the allied player 40K pp's 3) remove any restrictions on units.

Then you'd need to play it , oh I don't know, 500 or so times.....and even then it wouldn't be PROVED. But it would be more tenable a theory. But that would mean at least 100 hours of data base changing , and force re-arranging. THEN you could begin play testing IF you could find a JFB willing to assume the mantle. So obviously my theory will remain only a theory.

And by "Stopped cold" , I don't mean that the Japanese will make no advances. But nothing like their historic gains. That means no complete conquest of the PI,the DEI or all of Mayala. But we'll never know.

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RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 4:48:01 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Expect him to do everything he can to interdict any breakout from Manila or the other PI ports. Expect him to lay submarine mines (I'd send out minesweepers before sending any ship's out of Manila) . I'd also use one of your fighter squadrons to provide LCAP for the same ships. And have them escorted as he will send surface groups and submarines to attack them . I have NEVER had an opponent "just let them go". Most JFB players are greedy , and want to sink any ships they can , especially those that might be carrying troops to safety.

Waiting for minesweepers to sweep the Bataan or Manila hexes of mines is problematic. If those ships don't scramble on day one, they're meat on the table. You're just asking for either surface interdiction of fleeing ships or-more likely-brutal air attacks from Formosa's Betty and Nell IJNAF torpedo squadrons. It will take a couple days for the minesweepers to do their work. You don't have the luxury of that time for anything in Manila.

USAAF LRCAP of USN TFs is problematic. A thoughtful Japanese player will escort his Bettys with A6M2s from Formosa, thus negating the partial coverage offered by this mechanism. Also, if you're LRCAPing the fleeing TF, that's air cover you don't have over Manila. With the scarce Allied fighter support at Luzon, which is it going to be-CAPing Manila or inefficiently LRCAPing a naval TF?

Escorting xAK or TK or other civilian TFs leaving the area is partially effective at warding off submarines. However, with few exceptions, escorting warships that loiter, or attach themselves to slow-moving xAK or other merchants, will enhance the probability of their own destruction by various means.

For the Allied navies, it's pretty simple really: As Allies in the early war, if you fight in place, you'll die in place. If you delay getting out of the hot zone with whatever you wish to extricate, you'll lose it. Get out now, get out fast. Delay=death.

Salvage what you can, upgrade it and send it back into the fray after its crew gains experience and better defensive weaponry. Oh, if it's accompanied by a couple Essex class CVs, that's OK too.

Lastly, I'm not greedy as a Japanese player. Just bloodthirsty.

I didn't say wait till all the mines were gone....I said sweep mines. A sub or two couldn't lay many , 20-40. A very small field. And the sweepers need only clear a lane. That's how it was done historically , that's how it's done now. One lane, one turn, then go. It will take one turn to load the troops you want to save any how. And in the 1st couple of turns, the Japanese player is using his fighters at extreme range...and they need to be many places at once. It doesn't take many fighters (or particularly good ones) to disrupt Netties. One squadron will suffice. Also , if you are particularly bloody minded, you can sacrafice the 10 kt ships (usually AKL's) by sending them as a slower squadron , escorted by slower escorts (Like PG's at 12Kts). They get massacred at a lot lower cost point then your favorite AS,AD,or AP. You might consider leaving a slow AS (Like Canopus---as was done historically) behind at Mainila if you intend to keep subs there.

And Andre? When I said greedy , I particularly had you in mind.

You LOVE the "Manila Massacre"!

In our game you gave up the PH attack just so you could go after the small ships of Manila. Greedy-greedy-greedy!!!

NOW IN CHINA...there you are bloodthirsty!

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RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 4:52:14 PM

witpqs

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In my experience taking the 6 minesweepers at Manila and making 2 x mine sweeper TFs of 3 ships each will clear the mines in one turn.

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RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 4:54:46 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
My feelings is that the allies, combined properly, HAD suffient forces to stop the Japanese cold. BUT the forces were set up to do "Colonial policework" , not warfighting.

Meh. I don't share this opinion. In the early war, the Japanese enjoyed a qualitative and quantative advantage in most meaningful measures of warfighting ability.

Now, if you're suggesting that the Allies could have held a handful of strategic defensive strongpoints more effectively by concentrating their mass, then perhaps there's some truth behind that. But 'stop the Japanese cold'? Everywhere the Japanese advanced? Not likely.

The only way to prove/disprove my theory would be 1) to allow a MASSIVE data base change allowing the allied player to move , change ,delete,re-inforce,and restructure nearly EVERY unit. 2) give the allied player 40K pp's 3) remove any restrictions on units.

Ah. I hadn't realized you were referring to the 'cloudcuckooland' OOB here.

Yes. I suppose that if there were a near-infinite supply of perfectly placed, well-trained, professionally led , well-supplied and equipped Allied units, then they could have held the Japanese longer and in more places than historical. With all due respect, I don't find this to be a particularly interesting argument though-it's too 'alternate history' for my taste.

For purposes of the OP, the old perspective is germane. The Allies are undergunned, undersupplied, in poor defensive terrain and (sometimes) poorly prepared for the war. Act accordingly. Trying to turn them into something in your mind that they aren't, or weren't in reality, can lead to disaster for the Allied player.

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Post #: 22

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 4:58:38 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
It will take one turn to load the troops you want to save any how.

Ah. So, how did your Manila evacuation, whilest under IJNAF interdiction, work out for you in your 2x2 PBEM game? Think having some 3000 troops drown in Manila harbor may have been because you waited a couple turns too long to get 'em out?

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Post #: 23

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 5:02:43 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
You LOVE the "Manila Massacre"! In our game you gave up the PH attack just so you could go after the small ships of Manila. Greedy-greedy-greedy!!! NOW IN CHINA...there you are bloodthirsty!

Of course, I love the 'Manila Massacre'. What's not to love?

It fits with my general early war Japanese principle: "Kill, Kill, Kill." Those soft targets are just so 'nummy.

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Post #: 24

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 5:13:09 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
My feelings is that the allies, combined properly, HAD suffient forces to stop the Japanese cold. BUT the forces were set up to do "Colonial policework" , not warfighting.

Meh. I don't share this opinion. In the early war, the Japanese enjoyed a qualitative and quantative advantage in most meaningful measures of warfighting ability.

Now, if you're suggesting that the Allies could have held a handful of strategic defensive strongpoints more effectively by concentrating their mass, then perhaps there's some truth behind that. But 'stop the Japanese cold'? Everywhere the Japanese advanced? Not likely.

The only way to prove/disprove my theory would be 1) to allow a MASSIVE data base change allowing the allied player to move , change ,delete,re-inforce,and restructure nearly EVERY unit. 2) give the allied player 40K pp's 3) remove any restrictions on units.

Ah. I hadn't realized you were referring to the 'cloudcuckooland' OOB here.

Yes. I suppose that if there were a near-infinite supply of perfectly placed, well-trained, professionally led , well-supplied and equipped Allied units, then they could have held the Japanese longer and in more places than historical. With all due respect, I don't find this to be a particularly interesting argument though-it's too 'alternate history' for my taste.

For purposes of the OP, the old perspective is germane. The Allies are undergunned, undersupplied, in poor defensive terrain and (sometimes) poorly prepared for the war. Act accordingly. Trying to turn them into something in your mind that they aren't, or weren't in reality, can lead to disaster for the Allied player.

Not what I said or meant, but if that's the way you see , well. fine. We will have to agree to disagree. This thread isn't for you and I to have a personal pissing contest , but to help out a newbie player. As I said earlier, This was MY theory , and many disagree , and indeed have theories of their own. That's fine, that's what a new player has to hear, the many differences available to him, and he needs to experiment and adopt what he fines works, and discard what doesn't.

I've apparently contributed enough. If our new brother wants any further advice from me , he can PM or email me.

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Post #: 25

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 5:15:36 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
It will take one turn to load the troops you want to save any how.

Ah. So, how did your Manila evacuation, whilest under IJNAF interdiction, work out for you in your 2x2 PBEM game? Think having some 3000 troops drown in Manila harbor may have been because you waited a couple turns too long to get 'em out?

Yes and no. I didn't select "load troops only". So the ships stayed longer than intended. That, along with my other great failure in the game , appear to have been caused by rushing the turn in order to get it back quickly. THAT'S not going to happen again.

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Post #: 26

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 5:32:07 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David The Great

And what about the allies ? Any thoughts on what they can do to prevent a Japanese victory ?

Just keep your wits and you will be fine. The Allies should never lose in scen 1. Never.

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Post #: 27

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 5:59:32 PM

Mundy

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In one of my PBEMs, only one of my ships leaving Manila hit a mine. (I had the AMs out right away).

Unfortunately, it was Langley.

RIP.

Ed-

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Post #: 28

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 6:29:16 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David The Great

And what about the allies ? Any thoughts on what they can do to prevent a Japanese victory ?

This won't do that, but put all of your fleeing ships, in their scores and hundreds, into single-ship TFs, and use waypoints to route them in odd ways. The air targeting routines can't make air attacks hit more than one TF per phase. You'll have 30 Betties hitting one xAKL, and it'll sink real good, but those planes will be "consumed" for that phase. You buy time.

I believe CR, in his current game, even routed some escaping PI merchants almost into HI waters and had them exit through the Aleutians. Be creative.

Oh, those RN DDs in Hong Kong will be worth a lot to you in a month or two wherever you send them. Get them moving. They're gold.

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Post #: 29

RE: Advice, warnings, help, dirty tricks - 12/7/2011 6:32:55 PM

David The Great

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What about defensive actions to prevent a PH strike ? As much TF's as possible ? , a big sc tf with reaction 6 to intercept his KB ?, spread air assets or not ?
The dec 7th surprize is for the am turn only or am i wrong on that one ?

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Post #: 30